Sent to me by mistake .. From: "dalawler" <dalawler@msn.com> All of this discussion has been very interesting. I've learned a good bit about genealogy from this discussion and appreciate the help that this has been. I've not seen anything from anyone on my William Estes, b. about 1830, not sure where, m. in Mo. about 1855 to Susan Francis Boles/Bowles. Lived in Ks. in 1855, in Mo. in 1860, in Ark. in 1870 and Kinney Co., Tx. in 1880, where William J. Estes d. 1889. William fought in the Civil War. Not sure on which side as his father-in law- and some of his brothers-in-law fought on one side and William and his other brothers-in -law fought on the other side. William and Susan had Children; Mary, Lodusky Jane, Albert, Boles J., Arthur, James Butler, Timothy and Ida. James B. m. Patsy May Cox, Tim m. Maude, Lodusky J. m. David Welch and Ida m. John Guilder. Would love to hear from any one who can shed some light on this family.

Does anyone have Estes' in Hardeman County, TN? My great grandmother was M.A. (Mannery or Manervia) (Estes) Waller. I think she was also married to a Willie Jones. I have a 1850 census for Hardeman Stamped Page 3369: Nancey Estice, age 52, Mannery, 22; Davarey 21; William, 18; Peter, 14; Nancey 12; Cyntha, 87. I am having a hard time finding out anything about this family. M.A. Estes was the second wife of Thomas Washington Waller. They were married June 2, 1864. Thanks, Ruby Milum, looking for Waller, Cox, Easter, Estes, Daniel, Gibson, Porter and Duke

Hi David, The book by Thomas Jerome ESTES is at the USGenWeb site for Marion County, AR. I have a copy of the book that was reprinted by the Gen Society of in Marion County. http://www.rootsweb.com/~armarion/marioncoinfo/stories.html There is a picture of him at my ESTES web page. Just click on his name in the third generation under the children of John Moses ESTES. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rhio/EstesPg.htm Hope this helps, Rhio

Cousins, In the book "KY Obituaries 1787-1854" by G. Glenn Clift page 152 "Ellen Ross, daughter of John Estess, of Lexington. Died Tuesday Aug.25,1846 aged 2 years." The only Estes in the book any spelling. Marilyn Merritt

George Daniel "Dan" Estes b 12-06-1909 Forney, Cherokee Co., AL d 4-14-2001 Bremen, Haralson Co., GA buried at Jackson Chapel United Methodist Church Cemetery Cave Spring, Polk Co., GA. son of V M "Vic" Estes and Amanda Frances "Fannie" Huff Estes grandson of Andrew Jackson Estes and Vernon Malissie Clark Nichols Estes gr grandson of Kimbrel Estes and Rebecca Caldwell Estes

I hope I have done this right. I have been reading your letters. My, it sounds like a lot of work and conflict. I have gotten back with mine to William and Mary ( Hockensmith ) Estes. William was born in Virginia. He emigrated to Scott County Ky. and married Mary. He died in 1855. I haven't gotten any further and don't know if I will stop there or not. I hope we are in the same line. Like I said, I am new at this. I have a lot of info from William to son Samuel To my g.grandfather John W. and all his children.

TXBlinky@aol.com wrote: > > My, this is getting confusing now... Sure is .. this is the third William Estes, born c.1799, that I've heard of in the past few weeks who was born in SC and moved to AL! And possibly married an Elizabeth. But not the same one ... the other William had a son, John, born 1824, not 1840 as your one was. Who ever said genealogy was meant to be easy? :) cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

G'day Phyllis, Catherine, d/o William Estes and Elizabeth Sansbury is part of the family group: : . Robert/Robin ESTES (1748-1822) of VA; to NC by 1786, d.St Francois Co, MO [52,h1,h2] : . +Oney HARRIS [52,h1,h2] : . . Barnet ESTES (1776) of ?VA [52,h1,h2] : . . +Mary HEAD; 1804 [52,h1] : . . Susanne ESTES (1777) of ?VA [52,h1,h2] : . . +William EADS [h1] : . . Smith ESTES (1779-1843) of ?VA; d.Cole Co, MO [52,h1,h2] : . . +Catherine CUNNINGHAM; 1807, Knox Co, TN [h1,h2] : . . . Delilah ESTES [h2] : . . . +James SCIDMORE [h2] : . . . William C. ESTES (1810) of Madison Co, KY [h2] ******* : . . . +Elizabeth SANSBURY; 1830, Cole Co, MO [h2] ******* : . . . Elizabeth Harris ESTES (1812-1882) of Jefferson Co, KY; d.Sonoma Co, CA [h2] : . . . +William Hamilton SANSBURY; 1832, Cole Co, MO [h2] : . . . . Louisa Catherine SANSBURY [h2] : . . . . John Randolph SANSBURY [h2] : . . . . Mary Ann SANSBURY [h2] : . . . . Benjamin Francis SANSBURY [h2] : . . . . Sarah Caroline SANSBURY [h2] : . . . . Rhoda Teresa SANSBURY [h2] : . . . Robert ESTES [h2] : . . . +Susannah MIDEWAR; 1836, Cole Co, MO [h2] : . . . Mathias ESTES [h2] : . . +Jemima ? [h2] : . . Nancy ESTES (1781) of ?VA [52,h1,h2] : . . Elizabeth ESTES (1783) of ?VA [52,h1,h2] : . . +William PATTERSON [h1] : . . +Jacob MOSTELLER [h1] : . . +Joseph MEETNER; 1823 [52] : . . John ESTES (1785-1834) of ?VA [52,h1,h2] : . . +Katherine TAUGHT [52,h1] : . . Rhoda ESTES (1787) of Watauga Co, NC [52,h1,h2] : . . Sarah ESTES (1789) of Watauga Co, NC [52,h1,h2] : . . Delilah ESTES (1791) of "Grainger Co, TN" [52,h1,h2] : . . +James MENTEER; 1822 [52,h1] Sources: [h1] Lorraine Cates, "Estes trails", XV, No.3, 1997, p.1. [h2] Vonda Cooper, in "Estes Trails", 1992, 12.1, p.7. Also ibid, 1991, 11.2, pp.7-8. Sources: 1830, 1850 Cole Co, MO census; Knox Co, TN marriage index; probate for Smith Estes, 1843, Cole Co, MO; 1810 Madison Co, KY census; "Missouri Marriages before 1840", Susan Ormasher, p.73; family records. [52] Lorraine Cates; Estes Trails, 1981, 2#1. I dont have email address for either Lorraine or Vonda. I also dont know where Robert/Robin fits into the Estes picture. If anyone knows who'se son he is, please let us know!! BTW, the above is snipped from my "Loose Branches" file on my web site. > Anyway my question is her AFN # is 188Q-ZN1 .. Beware of anything in the ancestral file, which this is sicne it comes with an AFN. AF material can be excellent, well researched, or it can be total trash. I've found both myself. > .. a Mrs. Cooper of Fremont California gave the information. It > showed her father as William C. Estes and mother Elizabeth Sansbury. > Does anyone have any information on this family. How can I find out > the documentation on this? See above for further info on the family. As for documentation, you'd need to contact the LDS (there may be a way of doing this via the web site or visit ya nearest LDS FHC), they will then give you the contact details for Mrs Cooper. However .. since the AF goes back quite a few decades, there's a good chance that she may not be in, ahh, a condition to help you. You best bet would be to contact Larry Duke, the current editor of Estes Trails (he's on this list too) and see if he has current addresses for Lorraine and Vonda, assuming they too are in a, err, position to help. Ie: assuming they are still living. Incidently, I have you down in my contact file with the note "Katherine Estes, b.1836, d/o Ambrose Carlton Estes. I take it you've since proven Ambrose was not her father? cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

Jon Peterson wrote: > > Beware of the alleged Italian origins of the Estes name. They are > dubious at best. Every source I've ever read can trace the name back > to the village of Deal, in Kent, England. From there the origins get > murky. This page: > http://www.triode.net.au/~dragon/ft/estes/links.html is a good starting > point to get the facts. Thanks for the plug. Best to try: http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon/ft/estes.html and then the links from there. There's a brief intro to the Estes family on that page, but go to "my line" for a much more detailed commentary on the family origins. "www" or "xenon" .. are the same thing, but some people have trouble with the "www" address, so I give peolpe the other one. cheers, David -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

My, this is getting confusing now. I also have a Catherine Estes. I have been looking at a family thinking it could be hers. If anyone can shed light on this please help. ****1850 Launderdale Co, Al. census******* William Estice wife Elizabeth b. 1798 s.c. b. 1798 s.c. children: 1. Garland b. 1816 s.c. 2. William Jr. b. 1825 ga. 3. Jasper b. 1823 ga. 4. James b. 1829 tn. 5. Catherine b. 1835 al. 6. Joel b. 1836 al. 7. Martha b. 1838 al. 8. John b. 1840 al. My Catherine Estes b. abt. 1832-35 Al. married J.J. Richardson 17feb1850 Lauderdale, Al.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere with this. Thank you, Donna, for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly. Thanks to the rest of you for being tolerant of this discussion. There really is a lot of generally-applicable information going back & forth, so I'm hoping it can be a learning tool for all of us. What we're discussing is essentially the heart and soul of genealogy in its finest form. I hope nobody will throw rotten eggs at my computer screen if I venture to clarify some items in question. I will use Donna's section-at-a-time method. Donna's responses will have << D>> at the beginning of each quoted response.. My responses to each follows immediately thereafter, prefaced by the notation <<C>> : <<D>>**How could I have been more specific without typing almost 20 pages of data. I may be retired, but I don't have that kind of time not eyesight to type the whole thing. I guess you can crank some films like I did. <<C>> That was a wee bit snotty, don't you think? All the same, perhaps "specific" wasn't the best word I could have used. I was asking that you relate specific *information* to the sources quoted on this list -- not the entire text -- so I could determine whether there was actually any solid proof I had previously missed in my own review of those sources, or if they were being used as "supporting documentation" of one or more details in your theory. I had already stated rather clearly that I have done my share of "cranking films like you did," and had already read most of the source docs you had previously quoted. I could have missed an important detail in that source that you or Pat Finnell had found. I have actually made mistakes or overlooked significant information while "cranking films." Believe it or not, I'm not perfect. :-) Next, I'm afraid you misunderstood my statement that we do not have any hard fact "that even gives a definite location or date for *any* of these events." That was in reference to the previous sentence: "I just want to know what your sources are for the statements you made on all these lists about Priscilla's capture, life with the Indians and rescue." You apparently understood it to mean there was no hard fact known about where Priscilla or her family lived at any given time. The family is relatively easy to track through court documents, as you know. However, we do not know where Priscilla was living at the time of her capture, because we don't know exactly when that capture took place. We have a pretty firm time span (thank Heaven!), but nothing at all specific. As mobile as those families were in an effort to protect themselves from the Indians during the 1770s and into the 1780s, land ownership does not constitute location on any given date (unless the land deed gives the buyer or seller's current location). Other court documents have been somewhat helpful to at least determine the actual locations of others who were closely associated, but that information is of limited value in determining Priscilla's own location. I also noticed that your sources largely focused on the location of a Richard Estes/Estridge during the above-named time frame. Although I think we've all tracked a Richard Estes/Estridge (or more than one, possibly) fairly thoroughly as part of the process of finding a father for Priscilla, Richard's whereabouts can't be used as an accurate measure of Priscilla's location unless Richard is proven to be her father. We don't dare base one assumption on another assumption. That's really asking for trouble. For that reason, I won't comment further about the data you listed with regard to Richard's whereabouts, although I do appreciate your labors. <<D>>**The only thing that was found that indicates when Mary died was Thomas Townsend being issued 22 May 1789 Bounty Land Warrant #2210-200-Lieut. for his father William Townsend's service in the French & Indian War & normally the bounty land was issued to the widow if she were still living. and <<D>>**Please enlighten me as to how we know Mary Stone Townsend is alive in 1778. I think she is d., otherwise why would Thomas Townsend be issued the Bounty Land??? <<C>> You use a 1789 bounty land warrant to refute the possibility that Mary was alive at the time of Priscilla's capture. If we gather all common elements of family stories surrouding Priscilla's capture, we come up with a time frame of about 1776 to 1780. Averaging that out, we use 1778 as the approximate date of capture. That much we agree on. But how does a 1789 bounty land warrant signify anything about Mary being alive some 11 years earlier, in 1778? If we apply the same "common elements" method to stories about Priscilla's capture, we also find that the word *parents* (plural) was used in virtually all of the stories with regard to Priscilla being present at the time of the attack and her *parents* being elsewhere. Not one account says the parents are dead in 1778. Because of the land deed for William Townsend's military bounty, I agree that Mary was probably dead by 1789, but I have no reason to believe she was dead when the capture took place. We know she was dead before Sept 1795 because of Richard Stone's will. <<D>>**Its called by DAR, "preponderance of the evidence". You don't find one single document proving the fact, but you add up the tons of data & it all points to that direction. <<D>>**I believe that the the analysis the 3 of us did is accurate & correct. If you don't, then go look at the records yourself as we have done. <<C>> There's that snarling again, Donna. It just isn't nice. I have some places in both sides of my family where I have had to use the "preponderance of evidence" method to show what very likely did happen. You and I apparently view that method in different ways. I still don't consider it "proof" and still don't represent it as fact. I state the known facts and give a narrative about why I believe the preponderance of evidence points toward a particular conclusion being drawn, *until such time as we are able to find evidence to the contrary.* The other difference between your view and mine, Donna, is that I do NOT see a "preponderance of evidence" in all the conflicting information we've unveiled in this discussion. There are still far too many holes in the story and there still exists not a single scrap of true evidence that actually names anyone whose relationship is proven. I do not consider this to be the same as *fact* or even "preponderance of evidence." I don't think the research you've done is fouled and I have made it as clear as I possibly can that I appreciate all of your work. You are more than welcome to hold any belief that you wish to hold, based on whatever amount and type of fact that satisfies your need to know. I wish you wouldn't feel a need to resort to demeaning comments like "...then go look at the records yourself as we have done," or "...you'll have to crank some films like I did." As if I haven't done those things or put my blood, sweat, money and brains into the research like you have. You obviously have no idea how much work & money I have invested or the physical price I've paid, or you wouldn't be so mean-spirited. You are not the only researcher with a significant physical disability. Who is flaming whom? Marilyn and I have asked good questions so that we might know whether or not there really are FACTUAL answers to this family mystery. All either of us wanted was to know IF there were factual sources for your assertions, or if you had decided you had enough "evidence" to suit your own desire for truth. Maybe our standards are different than yours -- do we not have a right to know how much of your story is based in fact? I think we do. You may choose not to share information with anyone who can't afford to buy your book -- you invested in that book and you do have that right -- but you should be a conscientious enough genealogist to make sure you do not mislead people when there is no proof of your claims. Otherwise you are perpetuating stories that may in fact be totally inaccurate. Why is it such a bad thing to simply state, "I can't yet prove these things but I feel there is a preponderance of evidence that..."?? By posting to all these lists and stating your opinions as fact, you lead newbies to conclude that those opinions are proven fact and you could lead others to shut doors in our faces when we want to continue to research until WE are satisfied. After a story like that goes out on the internet, pretty soon it turns up in a book as "according to long-time Estes researcher Donna Hull" -- just the same as what has happened with the MILLER line that is quite a bit different in fact than what is stated in some historical society publications. If you don't make it clear that your sources are missing in a few places, some fool will publish it as fact. Next thing we know, we're having trouble getting information beyond, "Oh, that whole family is in such-and-such a book," or "Contact Donna Hull. She researched that all out." Poof. Another brick wall appears. <<D>>**That is all I am, the compiler, so I guess that is why I don't understand all the challenge. I wrote what I thought was a fun story, not presenting it as any- thing other that what I thought her personality to be, & I get all kinds of questions. <<C>> It was a "fun story," Donna. For some of us, it was so fun we were close to heart attacks, thinking you had uncovered the facts we've all been searching to find. It would have been great "light reading" if you had simply thrown in a "perhaps" or an "it looks like" here and there so it didn't go so much like a historical documentary without the documentation. It wasn't about Priscilla's personality. It was about her life with specific Indians in specific locations and it even included a little argument about how many different versions of the basic story there are in the family. <<D>> **Marilyn said the same thing, but I don't see "young woman" when I read it, I see "young girl". <<C>>See the sentence following the one with "young girl" in it, in the McKenzie writeup. <<D>>**ok., find me another Estes/Estridge in the area of Wolf or Walker Creeks in what is now Giles Co. If you look them up on the map they are both flowing to the north into New River near The Narrows & Pearisburg. <<C>> Stay tuned. It might take me a while because not all of my data is on computer, either, but I'll be glad to throw that into the mix if it might help us all find some answers. My files aren't as organized as they should be. :-) -- Cheri

Merle, I too love it when we discuss research and ideas. It is so much more exciting when people throw out ideas and facts. A lot of time we research so long that we actually don't see a clue when there is one. When you send it to many people, a person with a fresh mind picks right up on it. But we need to state, this is my assumption. One time on the Meek-list, I sent my idea that my grandfather married a widow in 1818. A man wrote back and told me not to send ideas like facts, that it confuses people and a lot of history is going down the wrong road for years, sometimes never to be corrected. I apologized, then received the marriage bond in the mail. It stated that Catherine Riddle was the widow of Major Johnson, she was marrying Richard Meek son of Nathan Jr. Of course I posted it! The man apologized but I learned when it is assumption on my part to post just that! When I got excited over Donna's story and asked for documentation, that's when things went down the tubes. So cousins, I hope the discussion continues as I am really enjoying everyone participating and not just posting family lines! Thanks for writing Marilyn Merritt

I have enjoyed the information on the list right now. I'm learning things about the ESTES familys that I had never known before. NO it is not my line but I find it interesting. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Donna, I'd love to have a copy of your book. Do you by chance have any info for a Paralee Estes born abt 1815 in N.C. who married Edmond Silas Elkins and lived out the rest of her life in Warren and Cannon Co.Tn. I'm having a heck of a time finding anything on her other than the marriage. As to your book I would really love to have a copy. Thank you, Cindy

Cheri-- It will be easier to answer your questions where you pose them so will mark my answers ** in the left margin. Donna Okay, it might not make me the most popular person on the list, but I want to jump into this discussion. As one of many cousins on this list who are descended from Priscilla, I want to be able to document all known facts about her situation for future generations of my family line. If the rest of you on the Estes List get tired of the discussion before we do, we can collect email addresses and take it off-list for just those who are interested. That's perfectly understandable. Meanwhile, I think I have the same questions that Marilyn did (I think, mind you), but mine were not answered with Donna's response. ** I answered what I thought was being asked. Donna, I appreciate that you took the time to send all the information you did and I appreciate that you've been a genealogist for 46 years. I know you've done a lot of work to find answers about our shared family members, and I appreciate the amount of effort you've put into the research. I just wanted to get that right out front so you hopefully will not feel attacked or flamed by my questions & discussion. I am also well aware of Pat Finnell's excellent research work. Likewise, I hope you can recognize that those of us who have been at this a shorter time may have *very* good research skills -- even equal to yours. **I do recognize that fact, I listed the length of time merely to show I'm not a novice, not to imply anything else.. Sorry to say, I do not think any of us is an authority on this subject. I am also painfully aware that several "documented" publications contain erroneous information or "enhance" the facts; some contain outright fabrications. I have not been able to buy your book on my meager budget, so I have no questions about what is in the book. I just want to know what your sources are for the statements you made on all these lists about Priscilla's capture, life with the Indians and rescue. The information you listed as sources for what is in your book were non-specific, so I still know no more now than I did before you listed them. **How could I have been more specific without typing almost 20 pages of data. I may be retired, but I don't have that kind of time not eyesight to type the whole thing. I guess you can crank some films like I did. I have studied almost all of those same sources (most of which are secondary sources) and do not come away with any *facts* that directly state any of those things actually involved Priscilla. Not one of them gives her name and we do not, as a group of searching cousins, have (to my knowledge) any other hard fact that even gives a definite location or date for *any* of these events. **Her son George's death certificate states she was born in Greenbrier (it was not yet a county, but it was called Greenbrier country after the river. **McKenzie had just moved only a month or so before the raid from Walker Creek (mouth near Pearisburg) to Wolf Creek where the raid occurred. I haven't found purchase deeds yet for Richard Estes but he had lived on Walker Creek & later lived on Wolf Creek. Maybe his move was in progress & that was the reason Priscilla was staying with some other family. To document that Richard Estes lived on Wolf Creek, I found a deed in Giles Co. describing the property that was being sold as that originally surveyed for Richard Estes. It was dated shortly after 1808 when Giles was formed. I'd cite dates & things, but I really have a hard time seeing book print these days. He paid taxes there in 1788 but was listed as not there in 1789. You might wish to check Franklin Co., VA tax lists as Priscilla's mother Mary & her son Thomas Townsend were there & I never found there names in the coumnties the Wolf Creek area has been in. **The only thing that was found that indicates when Mary died was Thomas Townsend being issued 22 May 1789 Bounty Land Warrant #2210-200-Lieut. for his father William Townsend's service in the French & Indian War & normally the bounty land was issued to the widow if she were still living. **location documents for Richard Estes 1760 Lunenburg Co tax 1768 in Mecklenburg Co to prove deed for Wm winn 1769 in Lunenburg Co, two doors from Mary Stone's father 1770 in Greenbrier country for Priscilla's b. 1772 Lunenburg Co, processioned Wm winn's lines " tax 1777-79 Montgomery Co, VA court record & militia 10 Nov 1777 he & McKenzie took Oath, stating they live on Walker's Creek, members of Capt. Joseph Cloyd's Co. Feb 1778 Montgomery Co tax 1778 Joshua Townsend enlisted in Montg. militia Thomas Townsend enlisted in Henry Co. 1779 Richard appointed Lieutenant of Militia, Capt Joseph Gardiner's Co. composed of men from "Walker's Creek & down New River". 1779-80 in Greenbrier Co per Joshua's pension papers 1782 Montgomery Co tax 1782-3 Henry Co tax 1786 listed in father's estate settlement as living in NC. 10 Oct 1786 Montgomery Co Deed, Richd assigned land office warrant for 50 acres on S. side of Wolf Creek 1786-7 Franklin Co tax, also 3 Richd's listed in Henry Co in 1787 1787 Montgomery Co tax listed a John Estridge on List B & Richard is on List C so they didn't live close. That is only Estes/Estridge I found in the records in Montgomery Co. besides the reference to Richard Estridge in my documentation. McKenzies also on list C which is described as "Walker's Creek from mouth to Sugar Run ^& Whitley's Branch, wolf Creek & Sinking Doe Creeks near mouths." 1788 Montg. tax1789 listed as not there After that he is in Madison Co., KY records, as are all of Priscilla's siblings. Priscilla m. there in early 1788. There were hundreds -- thousands -- of attacks, captures, white children who were raised with Indian families, and even rescues during that same time frame and in the same areas our family lived. Unless a name is given, it's impossible to be certain. **I believe that the the analysis the 3 of us did is accurate & correct. If you don't, then go look at the records yourself as we have done. The McKenzie/McKensey story is where the hired girl is mentioned as a "young woman." And the whole **Marilyn said the same thing, but I don't see "young woman" when I read it, I see "young girl". Richard Estridge thing is terribly suspect in my mind, because there were families who were in those same areas at the same times who went by the surnames of Estridge and Eskridge at least since their feet hit **In the area where Richard was living I only found the one--see above. I did find several in the deeds in Lunenburg who had puchased their land as Estes, & sold it as Estridge. The ones I saw were for Richd's relatives. U.S. soil. They never went by Estes in the U.S. I know that because I'm related to them (not through the Estes family). Same land from description. The ESTES name has been "re-worked" many ways, but I'm reluctant to vault to the conclusion that if there is a somewhat similar story that names a Richard Estridge as the father of one captive child, that child is actually our Priscilla ESTES. In this case, the story has been turned around anyway, since in the actual account Richard Estridge's daughter was not taken by the Indians. She ran for help. I'm especially reluctant to throw the Estridge assumption around as fact and stretch it out further to mean that Priscilla's father was Richard Estes (because we can't figure out which Estes it would have been otherwise). **ok., find me another Estes/Estridge in the area of Wolf or Walker Creeks in what is now Giles Co. If you look them up on the map they are both flowing to the north into New River near The Narrows & Pearisburg. If ALL other facts (or at least most of them) match what else we know, I'm much less reluctant. That isn't the case here. There is also a MILLER story that is so similar it would make your hair stand on end, and it happened right where our MILLERs were at the time. What does any of that prove? I have had a burning question since I first saw someone assert the Richard Estridge theory: Donna's conclusions about Priscilla's capture are based on a belief that Priscilla was bound out to another family at the time of her capture. Why would she have been bound out to someone if Richard Estridge was supposedly her father (who was alive at the time) and we know that her mother was alive then as well? **Please enlighten me as to how we know Mary Stone Townsend is alive in 1778. I think she is d., otherwise why would Thomas Townsend be issued the Bounty Land??? Virtually all of the family stories even state that her parents were gone to work in the fields or take their grain to the mill (depending on the story), so why would we assume that Priscilla was the hired girl at another house? And if we do assume that, why are both of her parents living at the time? I've rolled these questions around in my mind a million times. I, too, find the Draper manuscripts pretty intriguing, but I would not go so far as to draw up the rest of the story around that manuscript story and state it all as fact. There are a great many other references besides those you named that give information that could be woven into a theory about Priscilla's life. In my own book manuscripts, I handle things that are not proven fact by either prefacing an assumption with a statement that these listed items have led me to believe it happened this way, or by using statements like "we assume," "apparently," "appears to have," and so on throughout the text. I haven't seen Donna do that, so I trust that she must have some proof for these claims. **I presented my story as light reading, for Gosh Sakes. You & others are making a big deal of it. I would like to meed Grandma Miller someday to ask her a lot of questions. You have admitted you have not seen my book, so you don't know how the material was presented in the book. It was not presented as fact or conjecture. The family versions of the story & the historical references were present just as that & it was not "woven" into anything that was proven or not proven. I have been working on connecting parts of this family for a good many years, but I have not been a genealogist for 46 years. In fact, it has only been in the past few years that I was able to determine with certainty that Priscilla ESTES was indeed "my" Priscilla. I am more than happy to share whatever information I find or possess with anyone else who is interested. The more people we have with all the available information, the more additional information we're likely to find. **One major problem with my sharing--I don't have the stuff in my book on my computer. Had a different computer, it crashed, finished up on a friends & it isn't even on floppies. And after paying more to have the book printed than I paid for my house, I don't feel obligated to give too many freebies. Even when I have a book for sale, my data is available to cousins, because cousins have contributed immensely to the proof and conjecture alike in my files. I am only the compiler and author of the commentary. **That is all I am, the compiler, so I guess that is why I don't understand all the challenge. I wrote what I thought was a fun story, not presenting it as any- thing other that what I thought her personality to be, & I get all kinds of questions. I just want to know, specifically, what information in the named sources points an absolute finger at Priscilla in those events. **Its called by DAR, "preponderance of the evidence". You don't find one single document proving the fact, but you add up the tons of data & it all points to that direction. Is my search for the story really over, or are these just assumptions and educated guesses you've made, Donna? If you've found the goods that give us some fact, I think we'll all shout "hooray" and sing, "For she's a jolly good fellow..." But if these answers are not solid fact, we need to keep looking. All I'm asking is, "Is it fact or assumption?" If it's fact, please share chapter, verse and line with the rest of us so we can start directing our energies elsewhere. **I'm not going to type out the whole thing. Sorry. I type with one hand because I have to hold the copy about 6 inches from my nose with the other hand. I've given you enough to lead you on the right path to the documents. Cheri

I was brousing the Web this evening and used the search engine for Catherine Estes. In the LDS library site. I found her, I know that she was born in 1836 she had a brother John and a sister Martha that married an Allen. I found her in the 1850 census in Callaway Co. Mo. Anyway my question is her AFN # is 188Q-ZN1 a Mrs. Cooper of Fremont California gave the information. It showed her father as William C. Estes and mother Elizabeth Sansbury. Does anyone have any information on this family. How can I find out the documentation on this? Any help would be appreciated. THis is the family that has been my stumbling block for 25 years now. Phyllis Murphy Broken Arrow, Oklahoma ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

In a message dated 4/19/2001 4:46:46 PM Central Daylight Time, dmhull@frazmtn.com writes: > > I don't mind being asked for documentation, but the > flames to the list & to me personally, are uncalled for > I'm been very busy and not reading much of the post as I thought everyone knew the rules. NO FLAMES I don't want to make this a moderated list as I don't have the time to do that, but I will start unsubscribing anyone that flames someone else on the list. Annette listowner

Estes list and Donna, I apologize if anyone thought I was flaming Donna. Yes I have her book and no I haven't read it all. The part of Miss Estridge in "History of the Middle New River Settlements and Contiguous Territory" by David E. Johnston 1906. Mr. Johnston states he took his info from the Chapman Ms that were in his possession. page 63 "McKensey's family consisted of himself, his wife, his sons Isaac and Henley, and his daughters Sallie, Elizabeth, Margaret, Mary Anne, a nursing child and a hired girl--- a Miss Estridge, a daughter of Richard Estridge." page 65 "The small child, Mary Anne, had been gathered up by the hired girl, Estridge, who had slipped into the shed of the house, and concealed herself in a large trough made for holding soap. The child began to fret and cry and the young woman fearing that this would disclose to the Indians her hiding place, let go the child, and it ran out into the room, and an Indian caught it by its ankles and feet, and dashed out its brains against the door facing." still page 65 "The Indians took the two small girls, Elizabeth and Margaret, aged respectively eight and ten years, prisoners, and then ransacked the house, taking a gourd filled with sugar and a large loaf of bread, which had just been baked by the mother, and departed. As soon as the Indians left Miss Estridge came out from her hiding place, and ran up the river to Wolf Creek, where she met Mr. McKensey and his son as hereinbefore related." I underlined and bold typed the parts I was I talking about, to make it easier on your eyes. Since these girls were older than Priscilla I thought it odd that they weren't called young ladies also. I did nothing more than ask for your documentation, Donna. As we are not allowed to use any part of your book in any form, that was the only way the newbies would know where to look up things. I try to show my sources on things I post on the lists. If I don't, I am not usually offended when someone reminds me. As you just posted your book as the source and it is secondary source I asked for the original. Draper Manuscript Papers 9BB This letter was written to Lyman Draper by Gen. Henry Lee of Marion Co., KY, "Logan's Campaign of 1786" page 6 of Lee's letter Yes some of us think this is Priscilla, but it doesn't mention her name. "Another girl, perhaps 18 or 20, was badly cut on the side of the head, exposing her brain to view......she was discovered to be a white girl who when a child of perhaps six years had been taken a prisoner from the Greenbriar country..........she finally recovered, was taken to Lexington, where she was recognized by some friends there...her parents were notified of her and came and took her home. The remainder of the prisoners were taken to Danville...." This also doesn't mention Priscilla by name. On page 24: "Soon after the return of the expedition of 87 an exchange of prisoners was effected at Maysville of the Meckacheck prisoners except the Frenchman, the white girl, and an old white woman whose true character was not discovered until reached Limestone on the return of the Expediton...feigned not to know anything of English...probably to learn and communicate to the Indian prisoners the intentions of the white but could afterwards chat merrily enough. She didn't return to the Indians but was inclined to do so." No I can't claim to have researched my family tree for 46 years, I am 49. But that doesn't mean that I'm any less of a researcher. I am still looking for proof of Priscilla's parentage. I may not find anything but I'll know I didn't just give up because so and so knows so much more than I did. I'm sorry you were offended. Although I haven't met Margaret Hayes, I know that Pat Finnell found the Draper article on what we believe is Priscilla's release. Pat is a great researcher. I also know a lot of other cousins sent their work to you too. You have 27 total in your credits. I remember the several midnight calls made to me when you'd call and ask for proof of such and such, or copies of different documents. I didn't mind then and I don't mind now. But please don't slight the other researchers that helped on your book. I hope this is not constituted as a flame letter. It is not meant to be in any way. I just wanted to say that although Donna is the writer of this book, it is the heart and soul of each researcher that contributed and made it possible for Donna to write it. David if you want me off this list let me know. Thank you Marilyn Merritt

Okay, it might not make me the most popular person on the list, but I want to jump into this discussion. As one of many cousins on this list who are descended from Priscilla, I want to be able to document all known facts about her situation for future generations of my family line. If the rest of you on the Estes List get tired of the discussion before we do, we can collect email addresses and take it off-list for just those who are interested. That's perfectly understandable. Meanwhile, I think I have the same questions that Marilyn did (I think, mind you), but mine were not answered with Donna's response. Donna, I appreciate that you took the time to send all the information you did and I appreciate that you've been a genealogist for 46 years. I know you've done a lot of work to find answers about our shared family members, and I appreciate the amount of effort you've put into the research. I just wanted to get that right out front so you hopefully will not feel attacked or flamed by my questions & discussion. I am also well aware of Pat Finnell's excellent research work. Likewise, I hope you can recognize that those of us who have been at this a shorter time may have *very* good research skills -- even equal to yours. Sorry to say, I do not think any of us is an authority on this subject. I am also painfully aware that several "documented" publications contain erroneous information or "enhance" the facts; some contain outright fabrications. I have not been able to buy your book on my meager budget, so I have no questions about what is in the book. I just want to know what your sources are for the statements you made on all these lists about Priscilla's capture, life with the Indians and rescue. The information you listed as sources for what is in your book were non-specific, so I still know no more now than I did before you listed them. I have studied almost all of those same sources (most of which are secondary sources) and do not come away with any *facts* that directly state any of those things actually involved Priscilla. Not one of them gives her name and we do not, as a group of searching cousins, have (to my knowledge) any other hard fact that even gives a definite location or date for *any* of these events. There were hundreds -- thousands -- of attacks, captures, white children who were raised with Indian families, and even rescues during that same time frame and in the same areas our family lived. Unless a name is given, it's impossible to be certain. The McKenzie/McKensey story is where the hired girl is mentioned as a "young woman." And the whole Richard Estridge thing is terribly suspect in my mind, because there were families who were in those same areas at the same times who went by the surnames of Estridge and Eskridge at least since their feet hit U.S. soil. They never went by Estes in the U.S. I know that because I'm related to them (not through the Estes family). The ESTES name has been "re-worked" many ways, but I'm reluctant to vault to the conclusion that if there is a somewhat similar story that names a Richard Estridge as the father of one captive child, that child is actually our Priscilla ESTES. In this case, the story has been turned around anyway, since in the actual account Richard Estridge's daughter was not taken by the Indians. She ran for help. I'm especially reluctant to throw the Estridge assumption around as fact and stretch it out further to mean that Priscilla's father was Richard Estes (because we can't figure out which Estes it would have been otherwise). If ALL other facts (or at least most of them) match what else we know, I'm much less reluctant. That isn't the case here. There is also a MILLER story that is so similar it would make your hair stand on end, and it happened right where our MILLERs were at the time. What does any of that prove? I have had a burning question since I first saw someone assert the Richard Estridge theory: Donna's conclusions about Priscilla's capture are based on a belief that Priscilla was bound out to another family at the time of her capture. Why would she have been bound out to someone if Richard Estridge was supposedly her father (who was alive at the time) and we know that her mother was alive then as well? Virtually all of the family stories even state that her parents were gone to work in the fields or take their grain to the mill (depending on the story), so why would we assume that Priscilla was the hired girl at another house? And if we do assume that, why are both of her parents living at the time? I've rolled these questions around in my mind a million times. I, too, find the Draper manuscripts pretty intriguing, but I would not go so far as to draw up the rest of the story around that manuscript story and state it all as fact. There are a great many other references besides those you named that give information that could be woven into a theory about Priscilla's life. In my own book manuscripts, I handle things that are not proven fact by either prefacing an assumption with a statement that these listed items have led me to believe it happened this way, or by using statements like "we assume," "apparently," "appears to have," and so on throughout the text. I haven't seen Donna do that, so I trust that she must have some proof for these claims. I have been working on connecting parts of this family for a good many years, but I have not been a genealogist for 46 years. In fact, it has only been in the past few years that I was able to determine with certainty that Priscilla ESTES was indeed "my" Priscilla. I am more than happy to share whatever information I find or possess with anyone else who is interested. The more people we have with all the available information, the more additional information we're likely to find. Even when I have a book for sale, my data is available to cousins, because cousins have contributed immensely to the proof and conjecture alike in my files. I am only the compiler and author of the commentary. I just want to know, specifically, what information in the named sources points an absolute finger at Priscilla in those events. Is my search for the story really over, or are these just assumptions and educated guesses you've made, Donna? If you've found the goods that give us some fact, I think we'll all shout "hooray" and sing, "For she's a jolly good fellow..." But if these answers are not solid fact, we need to keep looking. All I'm asking is, "Is it fact or assumption?" If it's fact, please share chapter, verse and line with the rest of us so we can start directing our energies elsewhere. -- Cheri

ESTESCA@aol.com wrote: > > http://members.aol.com/estesca/genealgy If you wanna put it on the Estes web-ring, go to http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon/ft/estes.html And click on the "join" link at the top of the page. cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au