Is there a record of Abrahams children and grandchildren? I'm trying to find the parents of my William from Virginia....Sallie

For anyone interested .. the latest (edited) email I've gotten from Cheryl on this. > however he didn't marry again until 1684/1685. Not having much of a > feel for US research I'd not know if that was unusual .. to arrive > and not marry for 10 years or so. No, not unusual. The operation seems to have worked thusly: Thorowgood had money, but needed field hands; so he found some field hands in Merrie Ol' and made 'em a deal -- I'll pay your ticket to Virginia, and you work at current wages until you've repaid the cost; at that time, you can move on and get land of your own. The typical indenture was for 7 years; so if Abraham came in, say 1674, worked his 7 years, we get to what 1681? and meanwhile, he's fallen for some sweet little thing who didn't get here until 1679 or so, they have to wait to marry until (a) he can buy the rest of her indenture or (b) she's worked it off. [The "sweet little thing" was born in VA, but that aside, it points to an arrival around 1674/1675 - David] .. snippage.. The consensus seems to be that he PROBABLY arrived before Thorowgood's death. Only way to be certain is the estate records. Remember, the 1682 entry DOES refer to Thorowgood as "dec'd", but the 1675 one does not. So, he died sometime between 1675 and 1682; he was PROBABLY born in Virginia, since no one claimed headright for him (g), which would suggest that reading all the Keeling probates in Lower Norfolk co would be profitable. [Thorowgood Keeling died march 1679, Lower Norfolk Co, VA - David] Cheryl

G'day folks, Been tracking down the above mentioned chap .. when he died, since that will determine the most recent date Abraham could have sailed from england. Died 31st March, 1679, Lower Norfolk Co, VA, and buried 15th april, 1679. Thus Abraham departed from england no latter than march, 1679 (since Thorowgood was the one who arranged for his passage), and likely several months earlier since Thorowgood would have to had arranged payment to the ship owner etc etc (which would have to be done transatlantic, by ship) .. so 1678 at the latest. I did find on genforum the unsourced claim that Abraham arrived in VA in 1674. I've emailed the poster asking for further details and sources. Comments .. anyone? cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

G'day folks, Following is a reply I sent to the person who'd done some digging on the subject for me, I'm cc-ing it here since it may be of interest to some. cheers, David. ********************** G'day Cheryl, Thanks for your latest research dig on this elusive chap. Much appreciated, as always! I've passed on the details to the person who asked me in the first place along with your suggestions as to further avenues that they can follow up. > You're not going to like it. (g) Sorry. I'm not the one going to be *badly* dissapointed ... :) I have to confess to a mistake tho' .. the pitfalls of going from memory. I'd said before that the chap in question had married in england in 1682 (I think) and appeared in a petition in VA in 1683 .. but when I went back and checked, lo and behold, he'd married in england in 1672. That 10 years could make all the difference and could push his arrival back as early as 1672. According to "family tradition" (and we all know wot that means), his wife died young, possibly due to complications with their first child, and he then emigrated .. err, you know what I mean. There are no baptisms for any children of his back in england (not 100% certain, but pretty close to it), so IMV it's looking increasingly like he could have shipped over to the US in the mid 1670's .. however he didn't marry again until 1684/1685. > On 20 Apr 1682, approximately 600 headrights were recorded (per Nugent's > Cav & Pio). Counting the 100 patentees, that's over 700 persons at a time. > There is no way on God's green earth they were all off the same ship -- > ships of the era simply didn't carry that many "passengers". Ok .. I'm used to the ships which came down here and which often carried many 100's of "passengers" .. but that was 100-150 years latter. > I noted as part of the in-depth process the number of recordings for 20 Apr > 1682 -- over 100 persons patented or recorded land that day. Additionally, > a roughly similar number of records appeared on or about the 20th of every > month. That suggests it wasn't a ship arrival, but rather some sort of > "Assizes" or "court day". Yes, that does make sense. > More specifically ... The entry which mentions Abraham Easter does not by > ANY means confirm his recent arrival. His passage was paid by Thorowgood > Keeling, who was dead by 20 Apr 1682 .. Would that imply that he arrived before Thorogood Keeling died? Or would the Assizes record happily have referred to him in the present tense even tho' he was deceased? If not then a dod for him would provide a cut-off date for the most recent arrival. > include Abraham. However, there is an earlier entry (1675, I think my > scrawl says) that mentions Thorowgood's land, in the same vicinity. My > experts say that it is entirely possible that the headright importations > occurred prior to 1675 and were simply never patented until it became part > of the estate settlement... Which'd fit in with his 1st wife dying in 1673 or there abouts. But, as you mentioned before, the Keeling family had been in VA for quite some time by then so simply because "Thorogood Keeling;s land" is mentioned in 1675 above wouldn't mean he'd arrived a few years before? > One other suggestion was made, which I pass along for your consideration. > There is a Maritime Museum in Newport News, VA, across the bay from > Norfolk. They MAY have pertinent info. I cannot put my hands on their > brochure and fee schedule, though. Someone sent me their url and I've checked their site. Nothing much around that time period, but I did pass on the details, including fees etc. cheers & thanks again! David.

G'day folks, Here's the forward I got, slightly edited. A request .. could someone in the USA (or virginia!!) contact the Library of Virginia and follow up Cheryl's suggestion? And someone might care to check the microfilms of the 1675-82 estate settlements for Lower Norfolk Co, VA, (or nearby areas), again as per her suggestion. These may help shed some light on just when Abraham Estes arrived in the USA - because as things stand now, all that can be said is that he arrived in the USA sometime between 1672 and 1683. cheers, David. Forwarded message from singhals ... Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:10:40 Subject: Re: 1682 VA ship arrival - name? To: Marayong <dragon@triode.net.au> Well, I've looked and I've consulted two professional genealogists with expertise in the era and area, as well as with some maritime historians. You're not going to like it. (g) Sorry. On 20 Apr 1682, approximately 600 headrights were recorded (per Nugent's Cav & Pio). Counting the 100 patentees, that's over 700 persons at a time. There is no way on God's green earth they were all off the same ship -- ships of the era simply didn't carry that many "passengers". The maritimers say a passenger complement of 70 would be usual and 200 would be very overcrowded and under- provisioned. Nor would it be *likely* that multiple ships carrying smaller numbers of passengers would have all arrived the same day. I noted as part of the in-depth process the number of recordings for 20 Apr 1682 -- over 100 persons patented or recorded land that day. Additionally, a roughly similar number of records appeared on or about the 20th of every month. That suggests it wasn't a ship arrival, but rather some sort of "Assizes" or "court day". More specifically ... The entry which mentions Abraham Easter does not by ANY means confirm his recent arrival. His passage was paid by Thorowgood Keeling, who was dead by 20 Apr 1682; Thorowgood's wife Lucy (now Lucy Haies) gets usufruct; upon HER death, the land goes to their daughter Lucy; the headrights which got Thorowgood the right to the land are listed and include Abraham. However, there is an earlier entry (1675, I think my scrawl says) that mentions Thorowgood's land, in the same vicinity. My experts say that it is entirely possible that the headright importations occurred prior to 1675 and were simply never patented until it became part of the estate settlement. You (or your cousin) are urged to hunt up the nearest Mormon Family History Center and order the microfilms of the 1675-82 estate settlements for Lower Norfolk Co, VA; there is a small possibility that these settlements will *also* tell you which ship these people came on and when (as part of claiming the headright). Or, you might contact the Library of Virginia (which also houses the state's Archives) and ask if they have any additional information. One other suggestion was made, which I pass along for your consideration. There is a Maritime Museum in Newport News, VA, across the bay from Norfolk. They MAY have pertinent info. I cannot put my hands on their brochure and fee schedule, though. Sorry I couldn't find anything useful for you. :( Cheryl

G'day folks, I've been positively underwhelmed by responses to my query as to whether anyone has information on the ship Abe arrived on! One person did suggest the "Vana" (thanks!). Anyone else got ideas? At the same time I posted a query to several genealogy newsgroups and have had several replies from a very helpful lady in the lovely Shenandoah Valley in Virginia (she deserves a plug and I have been there ... it is lovely). She dug around, even consulted a few professional genie's and the upshot is that we dont' know when Abraham Estes arrived. The 20th april, 1682 date that Cav & pioneer's quotes does not refer to his arrival, merely when the court assigned headright for him. And so it's very unlikely that he'd arrived on that date and certainly not afterwards. Almost certainly he'd arrived before then. Possibly years before. So we are back to square one .. we know Abraham married back in england in 1672 and that he was in virginia in 1683 (St Stephen's Parish petition). Sometime in between he travelled to the america's - date and ship unknown. I'll forward the latest email I got on this, with further details. Comments please!!!! cheers, David.

G'day folks, Got this today. cheers, David Interesting your cite of Cav & Pio. 1682 is in Vol. 3 of the set I use. I'll take another look-see if you want (no sweat, I'll be there Wednes & Thurs). One point that may not have been explicitly mentioned to you on the assumption that you KNEW -- The "importer" of a person could claim the headright for that person (50 acres each); there was NO TIME LIMIT on that. It may have been YEARS earlier. Also, there was commodities trading in headrights (you imported 6 people, but needed $50 worse than you needed another 50 acres, so you sold me the headright to two of 'em) which was undocumented. So, although *I* claim headright to 8 persons in 1682, two of those 8 could have come over on Uncle Joe's dime back in 1675, another on his own dime in 1680, two more on YOUR dime in 1678, and three on my dime in 1681. (Also, I believe babes-in-arms also qualified for a headright, so best-case scenario, you pay passage for three pregnant ladies and pray they deliver aboard ship. -g-) Sooo, the entry you quote below says that Thorowgood Keeling imported those 6 people and got 300 acres for it. Those 300 acres were situate (as stated) in 1682. The 1682 is when Lucy inherited with stipulations. Chances are there's an earlier entry with the ship name. Cheryl

G'day again folks, Got this from a kind soul .. 1682 is in Vol. 3 of Cavaliers and Pioneers (op cit). There is one and only one entry for Keeling in that volume: page 248; the reference is to a piece of land owned by someone else who got some part of it from Lt. Thomas Keeling dec'd from Keeling's land patent of 9 Oct 1651 (or 1675, entry was a little confusing; if it matters desperately I'll re-check it). There was likewise one entry in Vol. 2 for the name, pg 124; this is simply a reference to the fact that someone's land is bordered by Keelings. Vol 1, however, had 7 entries, beginning on pg 22 (1628) and ending on pg 288 (1654). *A* man named Thomas Keeling arrived in 1628 aboard the Hopewell. 18 Nov 1635 Thomas had 100 acres in Elizabeth Citty Co. 1643 (9 Nov) 200 acres to Ensigne Thomas Keeling, in Lower Norfolk County (alias Lynhaven) his having transported 4 persons whose names are illegible inthe original record. In 1647, he conveys that land to William Shipp; on 25 Oct 1651, he patents 700 acres at Linhaven Parish (Lower Norfolk Co); and on 6 Jun 1654 he is mentioned as having assigned land to Francis Land which he received by assignment from Thomas Watts in 1638. [The pronoun HE in the above is NOT intended to imply a single individual; it is likely there are at least two.] Thomas seems to have been a popular Keeling family name; it appears in a book of marriage records in 1751, 1790 and 1797. As I said, Cav & Pio is arranged alphabetically by grantee, not chrono. Each volume runs to 300 or more pages; it simply isn't possible to search it for a date without a name. Still, maybe this'll help some. Cheryl

G'day folks, No name yet .. but someone in the USA miht like to check out one of the following sources which may yield the information: I dont have access to these books down here, but someone up there may be able to check. After all, we dont need a shipping list, just the name of a ship that arrived on a certain date! 1. Passenger and Immigration Lists Index a Guide to Published Arrival Records of Passengers Who Came to the United States and Canada in the Seventeenth, Eighteenth, and Nineteenth Centuries; edited by P. William Filby; Published by Gale Research Co, Detroit, MI (1981-ongoing) There are 3 original volumes (published in 1981), plus annual supplements (beginning with 1982); these supplements have been combined to form cummulative supplements (1982-1985; 1986-1990; 1991-1995 and 1996-2000). The 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001 supplements are in 2 parts. These books index numerous sources (listed at the beginning of each volume) of passenger arrivals, naturalizations and other immigrant resources. The complete set presently indexes more than 3 million immigrants. They are sometimes referred to as "the big Filby books." They are carried in many libraries. The entire set (including the supplements) is also available on a single CD-Rom from Family Tree Maker (CD #354) 2. Passenger and Immigration Lists Bibliography 1538-1900 a Guide to Published Lists of Arrivals in the United States and Canada by P. William Filby; second edition, Gale Research Co., 1988. The sources (up to 1988) in the Passenger and Immigration Lists Index are included. There is an index with names of the places of emigration and immigration, ports of departure and arrival, and places of settlement. Ship names, place names, and names of various nationalities and peoples are included. You will not find names of passengers listed in this book. 3. Ship Passenger Lists [series/4 volumes] edited and indexed by Carl Boyer; Newhall, California: Boyer, 1977-80 Vol. 1: National and New England (1600-1825) Vol. 2: New York and New Jersey (1600-1825) Vol. 3: The South (1538-1825) Vol. 4: Pennsylvania and Delaware (1641-1825) [available from BarnesandNoble.com] 4. Complete Book of Emigrants by Peter Wilson Coldham, 4 volumes; GPC 1988-1993. Derived from English sources, each book is arranged chronologically with an alphabetical index of names in the back. Each volume lists approximately 20,000-30,000 emigrants to the new world. Volume 1: 1607-1660 Volume 2: 1661-1699 Volume 3: 1700-1750 Volume 4: 1751-1776 The above are available on a single CD-Rom from Family Tree Maker: Complete Book of Emigrants 1607-1776, CD #350. cheers, David -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

G'day, I got a query by email a few days asking for the name of the ship that Abraham Estes emigrated to the USA on. Does anyone know the name? I've not come across it myself. The only mention of a name I've come across is in Bud Altmayer's book, "Abraham Estes' Children", which gives the name as the "Golden Leaf". However this is a largely fictional account and it's not possible to tell whether Bud invented the name or not just from the book. Failing that .. does anyone know where one could find a list of ships arriving in the american colonies .. specifically arriving in Virginia (prolly in Norfolk) on the 20th april, 1682. I did find a site on the net which lists ships from 1821 on, but nothing earlier. cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

Thanks to a glitch in the electricity, I lost the e-mail about William and Mary Hockensmith Estes of Scott Co., Ky. as I was answering it. This is not my direct line, but do have some info as my Estes line also comes from there. Would love to get your down line to help separate from mine. As for the other discussion on Priscilla Estes.....I stopped subscribing to another list because of the fussing. If it was easy, precise, and all documented, none of us would be doing this. Nor would there be a need to do it. I guess I think that open discussion should be polite, courteous, and open-minded. After all we are all family. Judy Estes Lawrence Nofork@aol.com

Hi Everyone - I am sure many of you are curious about the new Ellis Island web site at - http://www.ellisislandrecords.org./. These immigration records cover from 1892 through 1924 for the port of New York. It has been so busy it has been almost impossible to get connected. So, here is a recap of the Estes/etc listed at the site: 149 Estes listed, 8 before 1900 the earliest date - 1893 15 Eastes listed, earliest date - 1912 18 Estis listed, earliest 1894 2 Estus listed 1893 & 1916 Best Regards Roy Eastes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Man is the only Animal that Blushes, or needs to -- Mark Twain

John Estes Sr. (1751) is our Great great great great grandfather. His son John Jr. born 1769, grandson George Washington born 1799, great grandson Rolin Green 1826, great great grandson Daniel Kendrick 1870, great great great grandson Joseph Clinton 1911, great great great great grandson, my husband Roy Estes born 1936. For more information contact me at Estes73026@aol.com

Cousins, I just received the ICE family history from an Estes cousin. She also from my Priscilla Estes down to my Dealy line. Our 2x greatgrandmother were sisters, and greatgranddaughters of Priscilla Estes. My Priscilla Dealy married a Price, and so did Nancy Dealy then Nancy's Price line married into the ICE's. OK, still with me? The ICE line came from Germany and settled in Monogalia CO.VA and were friends with the Shawnee. Fredricke Ice b. 1688-90 died 1788 or 1796 at 105 years of age. The Shawnee would sleep on his kitchen floor until some of the Shawnee came to his home while he was in Morgantown with his son John. They killed his first wife and a daughter, then took his son William and daughter Mary as captives 1735-1740. William came home after he was grown and was called Indian Billy. Mary Ice married Pukesheno- A Shawnee Chied killed at the Battle of Point Pleasant, his name is on the Battle Monument on the Point, at Point Pleasant. Known children Tecumopeas m. Rupert Collins b. 1749 Chese Kau b. 1751 d. 1779 never married Sauwaseekau b. 1753 d. 1795 never married Tecumseh b.1768 d.1814 Tenskwatawaa (The Prophet) b. b.1768? d. 1834 Kumekaukau b. 1768? Stephem Ruddell (adopted white son) b.1769 Neehaseemo b. 1777 Some say that Tecumseh was a triplet and others name three brothers of his as the triplets. Sources Reva Ashcraft's findings came from page 173 "The Patriot Chief's" by Alvin M Josephy Jr. "Hardesty's" Scrapbooks of Norman F. Kendall, Fairmont W VA. There is quite a bit of info on this Frederick ICE and the Shawnee in the history books. I also have urls for anyone who wants to look up Tecumseh on the web. Marilyn Merritt

Attention folks! A subscriber to this list, shari Raymond <rayco@famvid.com>, has a virus on her computer. Anyone emailing her or _posting to this list_ (sicne she is a subscriber) will automatically get back an email containing only quoted text and a copy of the virus. For your own sake until you hear otherwise automatically delete all emails from "shari Raymond <rayco@famvid.com>" and dont open any attachments. It's a genuine virus folks .. "Win32.Badtrans.13312 worm". cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

G'day Ruby, I can take you back a few generations, but not back to Abraham. It was the mention of Cynthia from the 1850 census extract that twigged the connection. Canada Estes, born about 1795, died in the 1840's. Was in Grainger Co, TN in 1830 and hardeman Co, TN in 1840. Married Nancy, born 1798, either NC or SC. Children: Joshua (1815), two other males born between 1810-1820, Manervy (1828), Daveney (1829), William (1832), two girls born bewteen 1830-1835, Peter (1836) and Nancy (1838), all born in TN (state of births from 1840 TN census). Canada was the son of Thomas Estes, born 1761 (exact year), in Louisa or halifax Co, Va, and died 1833, Lawrence Co, TN. Was a rev war vet and in Madison Co, TN in 1830. Thomas' first wife is unknown, however she died before 1812. Thomas married 2nd to Cynthia (last name unknown) in 1812, Franklin Co, TN. Cynthia was born 1763 and was in hardeman co, TN in 1853. Children of Thomas and unknown are Floyd (c.1789), Mary (c.1790), John (1792) and Canada, all born TN. Thomas's father is currently unknown, however he did have a brother, John, who was born 1751, Louisa Co, VA and moved to halifax Co, VA as a young child with his family. John and Thomas both served in the rev war and what's known of them came from Rev War pension records. Thomas (1761) and John (1751) are almost certainly grandchildren of John Estes (1701-1771), however information on John (1701), his children and grandkids is extremely patchy and, unlike John's (1701) brothers, not even the bare bones of a descendent tree has been worked out with the exception of one son, John Jr. Thomas (1761) and John (1751) are not the childen of John Jr, however John Sr had at least 4 other sons, one of whom traveled a lot and ended up in TN (Micajah). At this stage the identification of children for these 4 other sons is entirely speculative at best. cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

Let me know if you still think i have a problem. I have not opened any attachments and I ran a virus scanner and I sent mail to myself. Everything ok as far as I can see . The first time I saw the problem was tonite about 1: 00 I was not transmitting. my name just kept popping up on the screen with estes and attachments Shari

I have had the warnings and bad mail from many about the virus in our email, but I keep getting email with my name on it that I did not send this one says Daily inspirations April 24, 2001 and the other one says[ESTES-L] Estes' in TN. Whats up. Shari

G'day folks, Some time ago (and I think here) someone posted the url of a site that contained the autobiography of Thomas Jerome Estes, titled "Early Days and War Times in North Arkansas" and originally written in 1928. I got a copy off the net of the story, but silly me, forgot to make note of the url. Does anyone know the site? I think it may have been April? Thomas is a descendent of Moses Estes, of no known origin, and was one of the Marion Co, AR, Estes. Thanks, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au

MKMerritt@aol.com wrote: > > Cousins, > In the book "KY Obituaries 1787-1854" by G. Glenn Clift page 152 > "Ellen Ross, daughter of John Estess, of Lexington. Died Tuesday > Aug.25,1846 aged 2 years." > > The only Estes in the book any spelling. Thanks Marilyn. Alas I've got several John Estes who were in Fayette Co at the time. cheers, David. -- The universe is not only queerer that we imagine, it is queerer than we *can* imagine - J. B. S. Haldane DC2.D A+++! L^ Pfwl Bfl Fo R+++! Ac+ J-- S++ Fr+++! I+ H++ $ M V+++ Cag http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon mailto:dragon@triode.net.au