Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of which, etc. etc. Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say "Welcome to St. ......'s" -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:01 PM To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Subject: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Nelson [mailto:elder53@btinternet.com] > Sent: 14 November 2012 09:08 > To: 'Paul Parker' > Cc: 'essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com' > Subject: RE: [Ess] Help needed identifying church > > try www.geograph.org.uk/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Paul Parker > Sent: 14 November 2012 09:51 > To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Ess] Help needed identifying church > > Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, > most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which > caught my attention was > http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the > church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an > octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search > suggestions. > Paul Parker, Auckland NZ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Even viewing the large version of the picture and then zooming it to 800% I can't get any legible writing off the notice in front of the nearer candles. But while scrolling around after a zoom, I suddenly noticed that the 4 rows to the right hand side, between the 2 wheelchairs, seem to be populated exclusively by schoolboys. Is this some sort of clue? Steve On 14/11/2012 15:54, Dudley Diaper wrote: > Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. > The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks > semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather > Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. > > The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the > banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of > which, etc. etc. > > Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say > "Welcome to St. ......'s" >

Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your less untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very familiar with the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly high-church to me. Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some sort of other small screen (it looks like a fire-screen to me but obviously isn't). It seems to bear a heraldic shield which has a black background, a red thing (sash?) running horizontally across the middle, and three objects possibly in gold which might be candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The shape of the screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also unusual in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on both sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such poor quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but left the focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on close inspection. I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other well-known connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly unloved enough by its people to be packed off into museum storage! Any church with Burges connections would surely consider such an object one of the gems in their crown? But on the other hand, this church is clearly architect-designed and of the Victorian period, and that single wooden chair to the right of the high altar looks possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the architecture (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant and unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas High Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval Catholic ornament. And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same group and this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or thanksgiving perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people forward of the frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with one jacketed exception who could be a teacher. Most seem to have short back and side haircuts, which could suggest younger children rather than older, and perhaps a boarding school. Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to be mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation on the other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on the crossing pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have an unusual and distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at least would have been if the photo was any good! I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from one school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the central aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an active musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the choir, with everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is certainly interesting that the primary focal point, the centre of attention, from all angles, seems to be firmly on these choristers. The minister and his three cohorts are clearly singing along (either that or yawning). And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more curious, it looks like some sort of unusually special offering is being made. Whatever is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long unscrolled parchment? Being directly behind the heraldic screen may suggest a connection - could this be the deed granting the land for the church by some local lord? On the other hand it doesn't look that much like a scroll and could be several small objects, perhaps hymn books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts or prizes for the choristers or schoolchildren? Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and could explain why there would be a second table in front of the sanctuary steps? It does look as if the church is giving something out via this table to the congregation. Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing face contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to me, or are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks most like a tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and 19th century domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but even so, it being at 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for educational reasons, to train singers. Could this be a university or school chapel? Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used it all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. Cheers to all, Lawrence. On 14/11/2012 15:54, Dudley Diaper wrote: > Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. > The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks > semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather > Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. > > The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the > banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of > which, etc. etc. > > Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say > "Welcome to St. ......'s" > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:01 PM > To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan Nelson [mailto:elder53@btinternet.com] >> Sent: 14 November 2012 09:08 >> To: 'Paul Parker' >> Cc: 'essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com' >> Subject: RE: [Ess] Help needed identifying church >> >> try www.geograph.org.uk/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] >> On Behalf Of Paul Parker >> Sent: 14 November 2012 09:51 >> To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Ess] Help needed identifying church >> >> Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, >> most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which >> caught my attention was >> http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the >> church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an >> octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search >> suggestions. >> Paul Parker, Auckland NZ >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I thought the object in front of the nearer altar was a chair, the red part being the seat. But I'm not sure who would sit there. And the one behind the pulpit is what I thought was an Agnus Dei, a lamb carrying a banner. The gentleman standing on the right is in a brown suit, while everyone else officiating is in a gown. Is he a guest of honour, handing out rewards to the children? -------------------------------------------------- From: "La Greenall" <eldeworth@googlemail.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:41 PM To: "Dudley Diaper" <dudley@fivers.plus.com> Cc: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com>; <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your less > untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very familiar with > the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly high-church to me. > Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some sort of other small screen > (it looks like a fire-screen to me but obviously isn't). It seems to bear > a heraldic shield which has a black background, a red thing (sash?) > running horizontally across the middle, and three objects possibly in gold > which might be candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The > shape of the screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also > unusual in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on > both sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the > top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very > over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such poor > quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but left the > focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on close > inspection. > > I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other well-known > connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly unloved enough by > its people to be packed off into museum storage! Any church with Burges > connections would surely consider such an object one of the gems in their > crown? But on the other hand, this church is clearly architect-designed > and of the Victorian period, and that single wooden chair to the right of > the high altar looks possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the > architecture (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant > and unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for > its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas High > Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval Catholic > ornament. > > And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the > wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same group and > this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or thanksgiving > perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people forward of the > frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with one jacketed exception > who could be a teacher. Most seem to have short back and side haircuts, > which could suggest younger children rather than older, and perhaps a > boarding school. > > Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to be > mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation on the > other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on the crossing > pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have an unusual and > distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at least would have been > if the photo was any good! > > I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from one > school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the central > aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an active > musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the choir, with > everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is certainly interesting > that the primary focal point, the centre of attention, from all angles, > seems to be firmly on these choristers. The minister and his three cohorts > are clearly singing along (either that or yawning). > > And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more curious, it > looks like some sort of unusually special offering is being made. Whatever > is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long unscrolled parchment? Being > directly behind the heraldic screen may suggest a connection - could this > be the deed granting the land for the church by some local lord? On the > other hand it doesn't look that much like a scroll and could be several > small objects, perhaps hymn books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts > or prizes for the choristers or schoolchildren? > > Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and could > explain why there would be a second table in front of the sanctuary steps? > It does look as if the church is giving something out via this table to > the congregation. > > Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing face > contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to me, or > are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks most like a > tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and 19th century > domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but even so, it being at > 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for educational reasons, to > train singers. Could this be a university or school chapel? > > Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used it > all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. > > Cheers to all, > Lawrence.

Yes, now you mention it, that is a chair - makes sense of the shape of the red area. But it's a very unusual chair, so for an unusual (unusually important) person? The banner could be an Agnus Dei, but I'm not familiar with that - sorry! I first saw that gent as some sort of music master, leading the singing, but you may be right - in fact it could be he who sits in that chair when he's not giving out gifts. A bit like a king on a throne, with his 'riches' displayed around him. Perhaps he's a headmaster, director, president, etc.? Lawrence On 15/11/2012 08:30, Dudley Diaper wrote: > I thought the object in front of the nearer altar was a chair, the red > part being the seat. But I'm not sure who would sit there. And the one > behind the pulpit is what I thought was an Agnus Dei, a lamb carrying > a banner. > > The gentleman standing on the right is in a brown suit, while everyone > else officiating is in a gown. Is he a guest of honour, handing out > rewards to the children? > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "La Greenall" <eldeworth@googlemail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:41 PM > To: "Dudley Diaper" <dudley@fivers.plus.com> > Cc: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com>; <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > >> Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your >> less untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very >> familiar with the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly >> high-church to me. Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some >> sort of other small screen (it looks like a fire-screen to me but >> obviously isn't). It seems to bear a heraldic shield which has a >> black background, a red thing (sash?) running horizontally across the >> middle, and three objects possibly in gold which might be >> candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The shape of the >> screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also unusual >> in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on both >> sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the >> top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very >> over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such >> poor quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but >> left the focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on >> close inspection. >> >> I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other >> well-known connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly >> unloved enough by its people to be packed off into museum storage! >> Any church with Burges connections would surely consider such an >> object one of the gems in their crown? But on the other hand, this >> church is clearly architect-designed and of the Victorian period, and >> that single wooden chair to the right of the high altar looks >> possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the architecture >> (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant and >> unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for >> its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas >> High Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval >> Catholic ornament. >> >> And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the >> wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same >> group and this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or >> thanksgiving perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people >> forward of the frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with >> one jacketed exception who could be a teacher. Most seem to have >> short back and side haircuts, which could suggest younger children >> rather than older, and perhaps a boarding school. >> >> Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to >> be mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation >> on the other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on >> the crossing pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have >> an unusual and distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at >> least would have been if the photo was any good! >> >> I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from >> one school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the >> central aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an >> active musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the >> choir, with everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is >> certainly interesting that the primary focal point, the centre of >> attention, from all angles, seems to be firmly on these choristers. >> The minister and his three cohorts are clearly singing along (either >> that or yawning). >> >> And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more >> curious, it looks like some sort of unusually special offering is >> being made. Whatever is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long >> unscrolled parchment? Being directly behind the heraldic screen may >> suggest a connection - could this be the deed granting the land for >> the church by some local lord? On the other hand it doesn't look that >> much like a scroll and could be several small objects, perhaps hymn >> books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts or prizes for the >> choristers or schoolchildren? >> >> Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and >> could explain why there would be a second table in front of the >> sanctuary steps? It does look as if the church is giving something >> out via this table to the congregation. >> >> Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing >> face contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to >> me, or are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks >> most like a tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and >> 19th century domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but >> even so, it being at 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for >> educational reasons, to train singers. Could this be a university or >> school chapel? >> >> Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used >> it all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. >> >> Cheers to all, >> Lawrence. > > > >

On 2012/11/15 10:30, Dudley Diaper wrote: > I thought the object in front of the nearer altar was a chair, the red part > being the seat. But I'm not sure who would sit there. And the one behind the > pulpit is what I thought was an Agnus Dei, a lamb carrying a banner. > > The gentleman standing on the right is in a brown suit, while everyone else > officiating is in a gown. Is he a guest of honour, handing out rewards to > the children? Add to this the sheer size of the building - it's far too large to be an 'ordinary' parish church. And the carpet in the aisle - how many churches have carpets in the aisle? It's definitely not Catholic! Too many bare-headed women. And where are the altar boys that would be there? Too plain to be Catholic, therefore Anglican! Don't think it can be a cathedral, because it's obviously 19th century (probably late 19th) and I don't think a lot of cathedrals got built in that period. I think you're looking at the main church of a bishopric. -- Regards, Mike Fry Johannesburg