Well done for alerting us all to this, Dick I couldn't agree more with your conclusions, and as you say, the way forward is probably a mass-extraction exercise. It occurred to me that if James jnr was born c.1801, it would have been before his parents married (1803). If this is the case, 1. the vicar probably refused to christen a bastard; 2. he seems to have been loved by his parents regardless, and brought up as if born during their marriage. Still a bit curious that they christened later offspring but never, apparently, him. My grandad always believed he had been born the eldest of 13 children during his parents' marriage, in 1906. During WW2 he had to apply for the first ever time for his birth certificate, and was profoundly shocked and upset to the core to find out that they married in 1907 - after he was born. He never got over that to his dying day, to the extent of disowning his father. Though to be fair, the fact that his father had two families on the go at the same time, and ran off to the other lot (at Moreton) when he got found out, also probably had an influence on these matters! Lawrence. On 13/04/2013 15:53, Dick Mathews wrote: > On 13/04/2013 David Moss wrote > > > Here I am, back again after a long time and still with much the same > > problem. James Moss death certificate says he died 20th October 1859 > > registration district Rochford, aged 58 years (confirmed on his grave > > marker in Great Stambridge Parish churchyard) therefore birth date > would be > > 1801. Census 1851 says he was born in Hatfield (probably Peverel). After > > looking everywhere I can think of, I still cannot find his birth > > certificate so I can get his parents and make some progress. So > > frustrating! Please, can anyone help? I have received a lot of > > information from mailing listers in the past, but I believe I must > have his > > birth certificate in order to not continue on guesswork. Anyone with any > > advice?" > > And on 13/04/2013 Caroline Bradford, Mike Fry, Lawrence Greenall, > Suffolk Sue and Dave Dobbin wrote variously in reply. > > From time to time requests for assistance on this list engage my > attention, and often require considerable time and effort to respond. > I'm sure the same is true for some other longstanding listers. > It is therefore more than somewhat irritating to see the original > enquirer posting substantially similar queries, especially when the > earlier work is not quoted, causing people to duplicate effort. > > David Moss and I were in extensive correspondence in 2008, and in May > last year I posted the information below in response to a query from > David when he wrote > " James Moss b1801 in "Hatfield" (he says on the 1851 Rochford census) > d1859 Great Stambridge. Have had ERO check all three Hatfields for his > birth/christening with no success. They also checked surrounding > parishes with no success. Does anybody have any information on his > birth/christening or can suggest alternate sources of this information?" > > Quote > About three years ago I was involved in protracted research for and > correspondence with David Moss about the origins of his ancestor James. > > I thought we had established the following facts about James, who died > on 20 Oct. 1859 and was buried at Gt. Stambridge (where his tombstone > shows his > age as 58, as does the burial register). > > James was the son of James Moss, a farmer, according to his second > marriage on 30 Nov 1838 at Rochford to Maria Peters, who was born about > 1820. His > first wife was Lucy, the widow of a Mr. Wright. She was buried 6 Jun > 1837 at Rochford aged 46. James and Lucy were married at Runwell on 11 > Nov 1823. So > James first married a woman some ten years his senior, and then one > about half his age! > > James’ second marriage was witnessed by Benjamin and Sarah Moss, who > were farming at Barstable Hall in 1841; Benjamin was baptized at Gt > Totham on 18 > Nov 1804. His parents were James Moss and Martha Nunn, who were married > 6 Oct 1803 at Gt Totham; both had been married before. The father James had > (probably) previously married Sarah Chad on 7 May 1799 at Hatfield > Peverel, and it seemed reasonable to assume that the James who died in > 1859 was their > son, although he wasn’t baptized there. > > There are quite a number of entries in the years before and just after > 1800 for what appear to be several Moss families in Little Braxted, > despite it > being described in White’s 1848 directory as “a small parish, on the > east side of the river Blackwater, one mile east of Witham, containing > only 126 > inhabitants, 563 acres of land, a few scattered houses and cottages, and > a water mill”. The Braxteds adjoin Gt Totham parish, and all three are > near to > Hatfield Peverel (where there are quite a number of entries). But the > Familysearch entry can’t be ‘our’ James if the father’s name on the 1828 > marriage is correct. By 1841 no one named Moss lived in either Little or > Great Braxted. > > James’ marriage to Lucy Wright at Runwell was witnessed by Susan Sains, > and it seems likely she is the person who married Thomas Moss there in > 1830. And > it seems likely that it was this Thomas who witnessed the marriage of > Benjamin Moss and Sarah Stock at Fobbing in 1829 (who are presumably the > witnesses to James’ second marriage in 1838). > > My gut feeling is that the Moss line is centered around the parishes to > the south of Witham (the Tothams, Braxteds, Hatfield Peverel etc.) at > around the > turn of the 18th century, and there was a drift to the southwest over > the years. Certainly by the mid 19th century several of them were doing > quite > well. I suspect the widow Lucy Wright was either already related in some > way to James’ family, or she was the legatee of her late husband's > property. And I think it's also clear that James, Benjamin, and Thomas > are all related, and may well be brothers - although James almost > certainly is > Benjamin's half brother. > > What needs to be done next in my view is to extract all of the Moss and > related entries for the parishes where relevant records have already been > found so as to piece a much larger tree together to prove where James > fits in to it. I’d also look at wills and leases and farm accounts at > the Essex > Record Office – although this won’t be easy for David as he is in Canada. > End Quote > > If anyone wishes to assist David further, they might find the above > synopsis useful, and if they would like further details they can contact > me via the list. > > Dick Mathews > in Southend on Sea > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >