Hi all, On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as "Minor" and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this indicate? Thanks, Jan Beaconsfield, UK _________________________________________________________________ See the most popular videos on the web http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/

under 21 is a minor over 21 is full age ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan R" <tartania99@hotmail.co.uk> To: "Rootsweb Essex" <> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:20 PM Subject: [Ess] Ages on marriage certificates > > > Hi all, > > On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as > "Minor" > and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this > indicate? > > Thanks, > > Jan > > Beaconsfield, UK > _________________________________________________________________ > See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

unless they were lying, as was very often the case ;) Anne South Australia Alan Nelson wrote: > under 21 is a minor over 21 is full age > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jan R" <tartania99@hotmail.co.uk> > To: "Rootsweb Essex" <> > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:20 PM > Subject: [Ess] Ages on marriage certificates > > >> >> Hi all, >> >> On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as >> "Minor" >> and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this >> indicate? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jan >> >> Beaconsfield, UK

> unless they were lying, as was very often the case ;) > > Anne > South Australia Ooops... Thanks for your reply too, Anne! :o) Jan Beaconsfield, UK _________________________________________________________________ See the most popular videos on the web http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/

Jan R wrote: > On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as "Minor" > and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this indicate? "Minor" means under 21 and therefore requiring parental consent to the marriage. "Full Age" means any age over 21 and therefore not requiring parental consent to the marriage. Most people have at least one instance of a party to the marriage declaring themselves of full age when they were actually under age, the reasons for which could range from their not knowing how old they actually were to lying perhaps because the father of one or both of them didn't approve of their choice of marital partner.

> "Minor" means under 21 and therefore requiring parental consent to the > marriage. > > "Full Age" means any age over 21 and therefore not requiring parental > consent to the marriage. Most people have at least one instance of a > party to the marriage declaring themselves of full age when they were > actually under age, the reasons for which could range from their not > knowing how old they actually were to lying perhaps because the father > of one or both of them didn't approve of their choice of marital partner. Thanks to Dave, Alan and Firebird for your replies. Firebird, I think you're probably right that she was lying about being "of full age" to avoid having to get her father's consent -- they had a baby about 7 months later. They did get married in the village where both of them appear to have been born, so you'd think someone would have known she wasn't really over 21! None of the witnesses had either of the family surnames, so I guess their families weren't at the wedding. For the 1841 census, about 18 months after the marriage, they both gave their ages as 20 years (which would make them both about 18 when they married). Best regards, Jan Beaconsfield, UK _________________________________________________________________ Win £1000 John Lewis shopping sprees with BigSnapSearch.com http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/117442309/direct/01/

I don't consider anyone in the age range of 18- 21 to be minors. My rule of thumb is 16. I have several marriage certificates from my lot and the minors really were minors i.e. 14 & 15 with parents consent. Interestingly enough both marriages were with banns so it might be interesting to check the pr's and see if they in fact posted banns. The marriage certificate should tell you that. Shirley O'Donnell Essex OPC Coordinator ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan R" <tartania99@hotmail.co.uk> To: "Rootsweb Essex" <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Ess] Ages on marriage certificates > "Minor" means under 21 and therefore requiring parental consent to the > marriage. > > "Full Age" means any age over 21 and therefore not requiring parental > consent to the marriage. Most people have at least one instance of a > party to the marriage declaring themselves of full age when they were > actually under age, the reasons for which could range from their not > knowing how old they actually were to lying perhaps because the father > of one or both of them didn't approve of their choice of marital partner. Thanks to Dave, Alan and Firebird for your replies. Firebird, I think you're probably right that she was lying about being "of full age" to avoid having to get her father's consent -- they had a baby about 7 months later. They did get married in the village where both of them appear to have been born, so you'd think someone would have known she wasn't really over 21! None of the witnesses had either of the family surnames, so I guess their families weren't at the wedding. For the 1841 census, about 18 months after the marriage, they both gave their ages as 20 years (which would make them both about 18 when they married). Best regards, Jan Beaconsfield, UK _________________________________________________________________ Win £1000 John Lewis shopping sprees with BigSnapSearch.com http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/117442309/direct/01/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

podnsod wrote: > I don't consider anyone in the age range of 18- 21 to be minors. Legally they still were, just as anyone under the age of 18 is legally a minor these days. Maturity is, of course, a different matter. I've known a 5 year old who are more mature than a so called adult of 43!! I also know a 62 year old who still uses baby talk and has done for at least the last 10 years. > Interestingly enough both marriages were with banns so it might be > interesting to check the pr's and see if they in fact posted banns. > The marriage certificate should tell you that. If the marriage cert says by banns, the parish register will say the same thing but you won't necessarily get the dates. Even if you did, how could you be sure the banns had really been read on those dates? Depending on the period, some registers did allow space for the dates of the reading of the banns. Some banns registers still exist but IME, most times the banns aren't recorded and the banns certs are given to the bride and/or groom so haven't survived.

Jan R wrote: > Firebird, I think you're probably right that she was lying about being > "of full age" to avoid having to get her father's consent -- they had > a baby about 7 months later. They did get married in the village where > both of them appear to have been born, so you'd think someone would have > known she wasn't really over 21! None of the witnesses had either of the > family surnames, so I guess their families weren't at the wedding. There was no obligation for family members to be witnesses. They could have been friends of the couple or one of them could be the parish clerk or other church official but you'd only be able to tell if one witness was the parish clerk by looking at the parish register. There's no way of telling who was or was not at the wedding now - which is a shame. I image it could be quite interesting to know who'd been there. If she was only a bit under 21, then it may well have been forgotten that she was, plus with a baby on the way (nothing unusual in that by the way) it might have been deemed expedient to allow the marriage to go ahead before it was obvious. If they'd been made to wait then the girl could have ended up with a bad reputation and the marriage stopped completely because she wasn't "good enough" for the boy. Better a blind eye than a bad reputation :)) > For the 1841 census, about 18 months after the marriage, they both gave > their ages as 20 years (which would make them both about 18 when they > married). Don't forget the ages were rounded down for the 1841 census which would put both of them between 20 and 24. It's the only census that does that.

The Hardwicke Act of 1753 set the age of consent by parents at 21 but English Common Law managed quite well without any statutory age of consent until 1885. Under ancient Common Law, in line with Canon Law - which was observed throughout Europe - a girl could marry at 12 and a boy at 14. source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19980724/ai_n14162600 Not exactly sure what this means and don't always believe what is on the internet! Howard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan R" <tartania99@hotmail.co.uk> To: "Rootsweb Essex" <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:20 PM Subject: [Ess] Ages on marriage certificates > > Hi all, > > On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as > "Minor" > and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this > indicate? > > Thanks, > > Jan > > Beaconsfield, UK > _________________________________________________________________ > See the most popular videos on the web > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Legally allowable ages for marriages are a separate issue to the difference between being a minor - who was still able to marry legally - and being of full age. You had to be 21 or over to be of full age, which meant that you could marry without asking your father first. If you were under 21 your father was still considered to be your legal guardian and therefore bore the responsibility over the choice of a marriage partner for you. But there was nothing stopping him, from a legal perspective, from marrying you off at 14 if he so wished! Royal offspring were often married, in a legal sense, even at only a few years old. Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jan R Sent: 10 November 2008 23:20 To: Rootsweb Essex Subject: [Ess] Ages on marriage certificates Hi all, On a marriage certificate from October 1839, if the man's age is given as "Minor" and the woman's age is given as "of full age", what ages would this indicate? Thanks, Jan Beaconsfield, UK _________________________________________________________________ See the most popular videos on the web http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454061/direct/01/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1777 - Release Date: 09/11/2008 09:53 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1777 - Release Date: 09/11/2008 09:53