Francis Payne wrote: > Do you know which offices do the same as GRO, > so you do get to see the actual signatures ? All the register offices can produce copies of the marriage certs with the actual signatures, although there are some register offices now which are refusing to issue "historical" certificates, ie those before 1900. You can also get copies of the marriage entries from the church registers which would be (or should be) held at the record office but that would cost considerably more usually than getting a copy from the GRO. (Note: a register office is not the same thing as a record office.) If you are near an LDS FHC, then you can hire the parish films through them and see the signatures for yourself that way. That would be cheaper (transport costs excluded) than getting a GRO cert :)) You can usually make a photocopy, digital copy or download the image from the film.

I beg to differ. The parish registers of St Margaret's Barking Essex (of which is my main parish of interest) has many entries for burials holding the service at the Church but the burial taking place in the Rippleside Cemetery. The entries in the pr's have a notation under the entries that reads -buried/interred in the N.C - translated to New Cemetery, which was Rippleside about 8 miles away. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Peat" <anne.peat@bigwindows.demon.co.uk> To: "podnsod" <podnsod@comcast.net> Cc: <Essex-UK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [Ess] REGISTER ENTRIES & CERTIFICATES [wasRe: Birth BaptismMarriage William Hyde KNAPP] > > On 24 Aug 2008, at 13:19, podnsod wrote: > >> >> Also, just because the parish register has a burial entry at a >> particular >> church it didn't mean that the burial was at that church, unless of >> course >> the family had a "vault/family plot". As local church burial grounds >> began >> to fill "public" cemeteries were established. >> >> > > No. > Parish Burial registers will only contain entries of people ( or ashes) > buried in the churchyard. > > If a funeral service is held at a church followed by burial in a public > cemetery, then the funeral service will be noted in the service register, > but the burial will be noted in the burial register of the cemetery - > quite separate from the church's one. > > Anne

Referring back to Jenny's original enquiry of a death. Referring to Parish Registers and the recomendation to look at the LDS PR's: Just a reminder that the parish registers are records of baptisms, marriages and burials. Looking at a burial entry in a parish register will not give you the same as what is on a death certificate. A parish register burial entry usually will give you the name of the deceased, age at death , date of burial, possibly address but not always. Then of course the official conducting the burial/service. Sometimes the cause of death if unusual. Remember the information is only as good as the giver of the information. Also, just because the parish register has a burial entry at a particular church it didn't mean that the burial was at that church, unless of course the family had a "vault/family plot". As local church burial grounds began to fill "public" cemeteries were established. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Firebird" <sparrer@gmail.com> To: <Essex-UK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [Ess] REGISTER ENTRIES & CERTIFICATES [wasRe: Birth BaptismMarriage William Hyde KNAPP] > Francis Payne wrote: >> Do you know which offices do the same as GRO, >> so you do get to see the actual signatures ? > > All the register offices can produce copies of the marriage certs with > the actual signatures, although there are some register offices now > which are refusing to issue "historical" certificates, ie those before > 1900. > > You can also get copies of the marriage entries from the church > registers which would be (or should be) held at the record office but > that would cost considerably more usually than getting a copy from the > GRO. (Note: a register office is not the same thing as a record office.) > > If you are near an LDS FHC, then you can hire the parish films through > them and see the signatures for yourself that way. That would be > cheaper (transport costs excluded) than getting a GRO cert :)) You > can usually make a photocopy, digital copy or download the image from > the film. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Shirley ----- Original Message ----- From: "podnsod" <podnsod@comcast.net> > SNIP< > I just hate those typed written certificates - I think given how much money > we pay for them they should at the very least be an authentic copy. > > I have a hand written copy of a marriage certiicate that I obtain many years > ago from the Bow Registry Office. When I purchased it I didn't really look > at the details too closely, I was just excited to get the cert. That was > when I was young and dumb! I just assumed it to be correct. It wasn't until > I got home (USA) and started calculating the details I noticed an error. I > called the Registry Office and they confirmed their error and sent me a new > certificate - a copy of the original, with appologies. > SNIP< > > Good hunting, > Shirley Just a reminder that all General Register Office certificates,whether handwritten, typewritten or incorporating a facsimile of the entry in the quarterly return are certified copies of the certified copy which is the quarterly return. If they are the facsimile type, the historic looking handwriting is that of the Registrar or church cleric or clerk who made the quarterly copies to send to the Registrar General at the end of the quarter in which the event took place.. The only exceptions are sometimes found in a GRO marriage certificates, where the clergyman, at the time of the wedding, got the couple and the witnesses [contrary to the official Advice to Clergy] to sign the quarterly copies as well as the register entries. Certificates from a local Register Office (and from churches) , on the other hand, are certified copies of the actual entries in the register, which means that if the office is one of the very few that issue certificates by a similar facsimile process to the GRO, then one *does* see the actual signatures on the actual register entry. Just as mistakes can be made in producing a transcription type certificate from a local Register Office, so did mistakes occasionally occur in producing the quarterly copies sent to the G.R.O., and in producing the GRO Indexes. Which is why genealogists and family historians were keen that any new index produced by the GRO should be made from the original register entries held locally, and not the quarterly copies held by the GRO. The plea was not heard, and the current digitization process, which has now ground to a halt, was of the GRO returns. Cheers John Henley researching (and not finding much time for - but always very glad to hear of any) HENLEY, PARKER, RAPER, [London/Middlesex] DURDEN, PRENTICE [Essex/London/ Woolwich] , SECKER, [Suffolk, London/Middlesex] ROLFE, (O)RAFFERTY, EVANS, PARSONS, SYMONDS [ Berks/Hants/Wilts] HILL [IN Staffs/Cambs/Berks]

Hi all, I have had so many helpful replies that I have had all my research answered other than where W A KNAPP is buried in the Hackney area. So many of you came up with such great suggestions however a few suggested that maybe I had looked or been given the wrong certificate. So, quickly here is the research for William Hyde KNAPP: Born 17 Aug 1816 Hoxton Bap 2 Oct 1816 Shoreditch Marr 14 Dec 1836 Eltham, Kent Died 13 Aug 1892 Hackney I think that I have to discount his age on the death certificate as a mistake by the Steward of the Infirmary Hackney He had a son William KNAPP born 1838 who I haven't researched and so some confusion may have arisen from this. His third child Arthur Wilson KNAPP died two years after his father's death that being 15 Sep1890, Ilford, aged 50 years. There is that magic age again This is one heck of a great List and thank you one and all Jenny (OZ) I wrote I am looking for some ideas on how to locate the birth, baptism and marriage for William Hyde KNAPP. I do have his death certificate which states that he died 13 Aug 1892 at the Infirmary Hackney Union aged 50 years. The problem with his age is that it would indicate that he was born c 1842 however his third child Arthur Wilson KNAPP was born 24 Aug 1840 Ilford. The death certificate is typewritten and so the age of 50 years stands out clearly. I was wondering if the person who typed the certificate could not clearly see the writing on the register and that maybe the age should have read 80 years this would have then made his birth 1812 which fits in quite well. I am also wondering about his death in Infirmary Hackney Union. Would this have been the local hospital also what does the word UNION mean?

Looking at the 1841/1851/1871 census Wm. Knapp (wife Susan with variants) appears to have been born about 1815/18 - 1841 gives his age as 25 - 1851 as 36 & 1871 as 54 - close enough. I think it must be a typo/transcription error. I checked findmypast and their typed entry is blurred as well. I just hate those typed written certificates - I think given how much money we pay for them they should at the very least be an authentic copy. I have a hand written copy of a marriage certiicate that I obtain many years ago from the Bow Registry Office. When I purchased it I didn't really look at the details too closely, I was just excited to get the cert. That was when I was young and dumb! I just assumed it to be correct. It wasn't until I got home (USA) and started calculating the details I noticed an error. I called the Registry Office and they confirmed their error and sent me a new certificate - a copy of the original, with appologies. The mention of an LDS entry of a burial in Great Ilford - this was a parish of the Mother Church of St Margaret's Barking Essex. The registration district would be Romford. It would not be unusual for a person to die in the Union Hospital and the death registered in that district and then be buried in their home parish. However, I see no indication on the census that your Wm Knapp or son Arthur was connected to Great Ilford/Ilford Essex. Good hunting, Shirley ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Tutty" <johntutty@unwired.com.au> To: <Essex-UK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: [Ess] Birth Baptism Marriage William Hyde KNAPP > Hi All! > > I am looking for some ideas on how to locate the birth, baptism and > marriage for William Hyde KNAPP. I do have his death certificate which > states that he died 13 Aug 1892 at the Infirmary Hackney Union aged 50 > years. The problem with his age is that it would indicate that he was born > c 1842 however his third child Arthur Wilson KNAPP was born 24 Aug 1840 > Ilford. The death certificate is typewritten and so the age of 50 years > stands out clearly. I was wondering if the person who typed the > certificate could not clearly see the writing on the register and that > maybe the age should have read 80 years this would have then made his > birth 1812 which fits in quite well. I am also wondering about his death > in Infirmary Hackney Union. Would this have been the local hospital also > what does the word UNION mean? > > Yours in hope > Jenny in Oz > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I checked the Free BMD Deaths and the 1st number of the age is incomplete in the entry. It certainly could be 50, 60 or 80 BUT the #8 further up the page does seem a bit more rounded. Hard to tell. You check and see what you think.Perhaps the death is forWilliam's son with the same name?? The IGI has this entry: WILLIAM HYDE KNAPP Birth: 17 AUG 1816 Christening: 02 OCT 1816 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London, England Father: GEORGE KNAPP Family Mother: LOUISA MORTON Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date. Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: C040803 1810 - 1816 0396233 Film 0933433 Film The IGI has this entry: WILLIAM HYDE KNAPP Marriages: Spouse: SUSANNA WILSON Family Marriage: 14 DEC 1836 Saint John, Eltham, Kent, England Source Information:Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: Film 6906464 Film M067821 1831 - 1837 0307731 A submission by an LDS member has got the following info ( which may very well be suspect??): William Hyde Knapp-Burial 1882 Great Ilford, Essex, England Free BMD has this entry which may refer to the above??(Perhaps died one place and buried another??) Deaths Sep 1882 Knapp William 66 Shoreditch 1c104 Hope that helps. Margaret Taylor (Toronto) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Tutty" <johntutty@unwired.com.au> > To: <Essex-UK@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:15 PM > Subject: [Ess] Birth Baptism Marriage William Hyde KNAPP > >> I am looking for some ideas on how to locate the birth, baptism and >> marriage for William Hyde KNAPP. I do have his death certificate which >> states that he died 13 Aug 1892 at the Infirmary Hackney Union aged 50 >> years. The problem with his age is that it would indicate that he was >> born c 1842 however his third child Arthur Wilson KNAPP was born 24 Aug >> 1840 Ilford. The death certificate is typewritten and so the age of 50 >> years stands out clearly. I was wondering if the person who typed the >> certificate could not clearly see the writing on the register and that >> maybe the age should have read 80 years this would have then made his >> birth 1812 which fits in quite well. I am also wondering about his death >> in Infirmary Hackney Union. Would this have been the local hospital also >> what does the word UNION mean? >> Yours in hope Jenny in Oz >

Hi All! I am looking for some ideas on how to locate the birth, baptism and marriage for William Hyde KNAPP. I do have his death certificate which states that he died 13 Aug 1892 at the Infirmary Hackney Union aged 50 years. The problem with his age is that it would indicate that he was born c 1842 however his third child Arthur Wilson KNAPP was born 24 Aug 1840 Ilford. The death certificate is typewritten and so the age of 50 years stands out clearly. I was wondering if the person who typed the certificate could not clearly see the writing on the register and that maybe the age should have read 80 years this would have then made his birth 1812 which fits in quite well. I am also wondering about his death in Infirmary Hackney Union. Would this have been the local hospital also what does the word UNION mean? Yours in hope Jenny in Oz

All, Links for the site are as follows: http://londonpublichouse.com/ - Pubs in Essex, London, Herts, Sussex etc http://suffolkvillages.com/suffolk-index.shtml - Suffolk http://kentvillages.com/kent-Index.shtml - Kent Kevan -----Original Message----- From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kevan Sent: 23 August 2008 01:51 To: Essex-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: [Ess] Pubs in the South East of England All, Back from holidays, and therefore back to updating the Essex pubs site. This site was originally built by Ian 'Pubby' Hunter ; and I am proud to continue updating in his fashion [plus a few adverts], thanks to a few of his friends whom made sure his original web site never disappeared. The site now includes Suffolk, Herts, most of London, parts of Sussex, and lots more. Middlesex could follow, if I had some help on this one. I welcome any new material that is available, and also try my best to respond to all emails; even the ones just asking for pictures! The site is NOT just about pubs, and also has a useful search engine for searching for people by name, street addresses, etc etc. Enjoy, Kevan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All, Back from holidays, and therefore back to updating the Essex pubs site. This site was originally built by Ian 'Pubby' Hunter ; and I am proud to continue updating in his fashion [plus a few adverts], thanks to a few of his friends whom made sure his original web site never disappeared. The site now includes Suffolk, Herts, most of London, parts of Sussex, and lots more. Middlesex could follow, if I had some help on this one. I welcome any new material that is available, and also try my best to respond to all emails; even the ones just asking for pictures! The site is NOT just about pubs, and also has a useful search engine for searching for people by name, street addresses, etc etc. Enjoy, Kevan

Hi Colleen, I would really appreciate any information you may come across about any 'Waller's' in Layer de la Haye. Many thanks, Clare. -----Original Message----- From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Colleen Sent: 22 August 2008 11:54 To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: [Ess] Layer de la Haye - village & grave pics I've started photographing the village of Layer de la Haye, including the graves and memorials (had to stop because I ran out of camera memory and my daughter has pinched my spare) if any lister has ancestors there, let me know and I'll keep an eye out for their names. Colleen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I just found marriage allegations for my 4G Grandfather; Thomas Lewin, widow of Hawkwell to marry Mary Bowles of Rochford on 5 Oct 1781 in Hawkwell. Wonderful! Now my problem Thomas was previously married to Mary Ray in Eastwood but see no record of issue or of burial for his wife...must have left the area after they married in 1776. SLC FHL doesn't have film for Hawkwell in 1781 (starts in 1801). They have several children baptized in Prittlewell beginning 1785 but I suspect Thomas had children earlier than 1785. Any suggestions? Thank you, Judy Black Researching in Essex: Lewin, Unwin, Tate, Belton, Payne, Bowles, Ray

I've started photographing the village of Layer de la Haye, including the graves and memorials (had to stop because I ran out of camera memory and my daughter has pinched my spare) if any lister has ancestors there, let me know and I'll keep an eye out for their names. Colleen

I have Edward's cert which shows his mother Ellen, but she was born before 1837 (aprox 1831) and obviously her mother Sophia b aprox 1807 (or possible other woman as the 1841 census doesn't establish relationships) is born prior to registration as well. Daniel and Sophia Porters cert for marriage is coming, but I only usually get a fathers name on those so I am hoping to find a parish record if anyone has it which sometimes is more forthcoming with parents names. This board has been helpful with suggestions such as yours and I am hoping a fresh set of eyes might cast more light on it. RH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <bwearing@eastlink.ca> To: "RH" <rlheco@yahoo.ca>; <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [Ess] Porter Daniel and Sophia > Hi Robin > > Do you have any birth certs etc for any of these people?? They should > answer some of your questions. > > Regards > beth in NS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RH" <rlheco@yahoo.ca> > To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:34 PM > Subject: [Ess] Porter Daniel and Sophia> > Wonder if anyone has an idea about the marriage between Daniel Porter and >> Sophia (Nunn) in Chelmsford Essex 1844. I am going to order the cert on >> my >> next GRO purchase >> >> I am trying to determine Sophia's family line before her and as it >> related >> to Ellen Nunn (possibly her daughter) my mystery woman and her >> illegitimate >> son Edward Nunn b 1856. I have nothing connecting Ellen to Sophia as of >> yet.. >

Hi Robin Do you have any birth certs etc for any of these people?? They should answer some of your questions. Regards beth in NS ----- Original Message ----- From: "RH" <rlheco@yahoo.ca> To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: [Ess] Porter Daniel and Sophia> Wonder if anyone has an idea about the marriage between Daniel Porter and > Sophia (Nunn) in Chelmsford Essex 1844. I am going to order the cert on my > next GRO purchase > > I am trying to determine Sophia's family line before her and as it related > to Ellen Nunn (possibly her daughter) my mystery woman and her > illegitimate > son Edward Nunn b 1856. I have nothing connecting Ellen to Sophia as of > yet..

Update: Found Ellen and mother (Likely) Sophia Nunn with who appear to be Sophia's parents or grandparents in the 1841 Census Hyde Lodge, Ingatestone; (PRO ref: - RD Chelmsford, Sub RD: Ingatestone; ED 2. HO107/325/19. Page: 3; Line: 15; GSU roll: 241364 But any other help would be appreciated...especially with PR's Robin H ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RH" <rlheco@yahoo.ca> > To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 9:34 PM > Subject: [Ess] Porter Daniel and Sophia > > >> Hi all! >> >> Wonder if anyone has an idea about the marriage between Daniel Porter and >> Sophia (Nunn) in Chelmsford Essex 1844. I am going to order the cert on >> my >> next GRO purchase >> >> I am trying to determine Sophia's family line before her and as it >> related >> to Ellen Nunn (possibly her daughter) my mystery woman and her >> illegitimate >> son Edward Nunn b 1856. I have nothing connecting Ellen to Sophia as of >> yet.. >> >> Because of census' showing Daniel and Sophia with a "grandson" named >> Edward >> Nunn in 1861 and 1871 I am lead to believe that it is not quite possible >> for >> them to have been married in 1944 and able to have a grandson born in >> 1856. >> She (since the name is Edward Nunn b 1856) may have had a daughter >> (Ellen) >> out of wedlock who in turn had Edward out of wedlock. But it is possible >> that Sophia had Ellen legitimately and her maiden name is something else >> beside Nunn and Ellen is the product of Sophia's first marriage. >> >> Sorry for not being specific on this one, just looking for PR's for >> Sophia >> and a possible first husband, parents names of Daniel Porter and Sophia >> Nunn >> from the 1844 marriage and a PR for Ellen Nunn the mother of Edward (b >> 1856 >> in Marylebone Workhouse) >> >> Any and all clues appreciated. >> >> Robin H >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all! Wonder if anyone has an idea about the marriage between Daniel Porter and Sophia (Nunn) in Chelmsford Essex 1844. I am going to order the cert on my next GRO purchase I am trying to determine Sophia's family line before her and as it related to Ellen Nunn (possibly her daughter) my mystery woman and her illegitimate son Edward Nunn b 1856. I have nothing connecting Ellen to Sophia as of yet.. Because of census' showing Daniel and Sophia with a "grandson" named Edward Nunn in 1861 and 1871 I am lead to believe that it is not quite possible for them to have been married in 1944 and able to have a grandson born in 1856. She (since the name is Edward Nunn b 1856) may have had a daughter (Ellen) out of wedlock who in turn had Edward out of wedlock. But it is possible that Sophia had Ellen legitimately and her maiden name is something else beside Nunn and Ellen is the product of Sophia's first marriage. Sorry for not being specific on this one, just looking for PR's for Sophia and a possible first husband, parents names of Daniel Porter and Sophia Nunn from the 1844 marriage and a PR for Ellen Nunn the mother of Edward (b 1856 in Marylebone Workhouse) Any and all clues appreciated. Robin H

DVDobbin@aol.com wrote: > The downside is that the room price does not include breakfast If the breakfast is like the one they served at the Kew Bridge Travelodge, then you can have an "as much as you can eat" cooked breakfast for 7.50 GBP: eg cereal and fruit juice followed by sausage, bacon, egg, tomato, baked beans followed by toast and marmalade. Tea and coffee for free :)))) However, if it's like the one they served at Warrington, then it's a packed breakfast :( Just a packet of cereal, a container of milk and that was about it with coffee you had to pay an additional 1.50 for from a machine in the lobby :( I hope it's the former rather than the latter. With a good breakfast, researchers won't need to stop for lunch - they'll still be too full from breakfast <G> Rooms are comfortable and they all have wifi internet connections too.

GDAY:) Is anyone researching please DAWSON family from Great Bardfield or Shalford Essex Thanks,,Its my Direct line regards Cathy:) Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset

I was in Chelmsford** yesterday and noticed that a Travelodge is opening 'soon'. I have checked the website (_www.travelodge.co.uk_ (http://www.travelodge.co.uk) ) and that says it is due to open on 30 January 2009. As it is within walking distance of the ERO it might be useful for those travelling long distances. You can't book rooms there yet but Travelodge prices are normally about GBP50.00, although if you register on the website you can often get early notice of discounted prices of less than GPB30.00 (or even GPB20.00) if you can book (and pay) well in advance. The downside is that the room price does not include breakfast and Travelodge have done a deal with a separate private parking firm, so parking at many of their hotels is no longer free (about GBP3.00 to 5.00 a night, depending on location). For those who go by car to the ERO, the Wharf Road car park (right next to the ERO) is now a 'Pay and Display' at GBP3.50 a day. **Frustratingly, I was working at both ends of the canal basin. I had to walk past the ERO several times and was unable to get time out to go inside! In any case I didn't have my notes or CARN card with me either. DaveD I raise money for charity just by searching the web! www.everyclick.com is an internet search engine with a big difference - it donates half its revenues to charity, please support them too!