My feeling is that the church is older than many are allowing for, mainly because the windows are so narrow, from looking at photos on various websites Victorian and later buildings usually have windows at least half as wide again. So could it have been an older church re-decorated in a more modern style? The choir members, are there 2 choirs? Those wearing white and those in red (with red scull caps?) And for the coloured choir members, do the hair styles give a clue as to when the photo was taken, eg early 70s? The floor of the aisle. Is that carpet, or is it tile? I've seen tile work like that in some churches, but don't recall carpets of that standard. If it is a school church, or one associated with a school, then I would suggest that the table contains Bibles to be presented to the new boys, something that happened to me in the early 60s in Nottinghamshire. Again, if it is a school associated church, then the angle of the organist, to help keep and eye on the boys, makes more sense. Final thought, for now. The location of the photographer. The church has a gallery above the back of the aisle. Not uncommon, but not universal. Cheers Steve On 14/11/2012 20:41, La Greenall wrote: > Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your less > untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very familiar with > the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly high-church to me. > Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some sort of other small > screen (it looks like a fire-screen to me but obviously isn't). It seems > to bear a heraldic shield which has a black background, a red thing > (sash?) running horizontally across the middle, and three objects > possibly in gold which might be candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of > shape anyway. The shape of the screen, if it is meant to resemble a > heraldic shield, is also unusual in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a > jousting lance socket on both sides near the top corners. There would > normally only be one on the top left corner as we look at it (for > right-handed jousters). Very over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's > a shame the photo is such poor quality - I've improved (slightly) the > tonal range and hue, but left the focussing/sharpness alone, as it only > makes things worse on close inspection. > > I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other well-known > connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly unloved enough by > its people to be packed off into museum storage! Any church with Burges > connections would surely consider such an object one of the gems in > their crown? But on the other hand, this church is clearly > architect-designed and of the Victorian period, and that single wooden > chair to the right of the high altar looks possibly Burgesian to me. > However, the rest of the architecture (mouldings, arches, pillars, > capitals) is too plainly elegant and unfussy to be Burges. It seems to > embrace the spirit of modern (for its time) Protestantism with slightly > puritanical overtones, whereas High Gothic was partly about > rediscovering the richness of medieval Catholic ornament. > > And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the > wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same group > and this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or > thanksgiving perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people > forward of the frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with one > jacketed exception who could be a teacher. Most seem to have short back > and side haircuts, which could suggest younger children rather than > older, and perhaps a boarding school. > > Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to be > mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation on > the other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on the > crossing pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have an > unusual and distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at least > would have been if the photo was any good! > > I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from one > school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the central > aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an active > musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the choir, with > everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is certainly > interesting that the primary focal point, the centre of attention, from > all angles, seems to be firmly on these choristers. The minister and his > three cohorts are clearly singing along (either that or yawning). > > And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more curious, > it looks like some sort of unusually special offering is being made. > Whatever is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long unscrolled > parchment? Being directly behind the heraldic screen may suggest a > connection - could this be the deed granting the land for the church by > some local lord? On the other hand it doesn't look that much like a > scroll and could be several small objects, perhaps hymn books, lying > side by side. Maybe they're gifts or prizes for the choristers or > schoolchildren? > > Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and could > explain why there would be a second table in front of the sanctuary > steps? It does look as if the church is giving something out via this > table to the congregation. > > Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing > face contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to > me, or are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks most > like a tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and 19th > century domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but even so, it > being at 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for educational > reasons, to train singers. Could this be a university or school chapel? > > Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used it > all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. > > Cheers to all, > Lawrence. > >

It's difficult to determine from the picture, but the image in the central window of the nave might be wearing a crown suggesting a king or a prince. Michael

On 15/11/2012 10:19, Diane MARGRIE-Sowden wrote: > Could this be a Bishops throne and he is the Bishop! > > Could it be a confirmation service? > > Diane > > Sent from my iPad That's a very good point, Diane - why didn't I think of it! It does seem odd he being in an ordinary suit, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. There be a theme of duality emerging here - we seem to have a communion table brought out towards the cong with gifts for them on it, yet there is still a high altar in the sanctuary, and now we seem to have a bishop's chair in front of the communion table and a bishop in a suit. Formality and familiarity wrapped up together. A bit like a king knighting his own sons. Lawrence Lawrence

On 15/11/2012 09:16, Mike Fry wrote: > Add to this the sheer size of the building - it's far too large to be > an 'ordinary' parish church. And the carpet in the aisle - how many > churches have carpets in the aisle? It's definitely not Catholic! Too > many bare-headed women. And where are the altar boys that would be > there? Too plain to be Catholic, therefore Anglican! Don't think it > can be a cathedral, because it's obviously 19th century (probably late > 19th) and I don't think a lot of cathedrals got built in that period. > I think you're looking at the main church of a bishopric. I can only agree Mike with much you say. I also think it's late 19th century, i.e. probably after the High Victorian fashion had been and gone. Some cathedrals do date to recent times; Guildford is 20th century, and Chelmsford became a cathedral in the 20th century too - although the building is an older (yet quite grand) parish church. Isn't the head church of a bishopric a cathedral? Though I entirely agree about the size and scale of this church, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's a high-status church: I recently visited Thaxted parish church in Essex which also has a central crossing, very high ceilings and an extreme length, to rival any cathedral, but this was due firstly to a very prosperous townspeople who wanted lots of guild chapels in their new church, which they began constructing in the 14th century whilst several claimants to the lordship of the manor were tied up in legal battles, and therefore had control of the basic floorplan (each of the two aisles is wider than the central nave); and secondly to the very high status and royal lords of the manor of later centuries who completed the construction - the last one being Catherine of Aragon. It does have a western tower but was begun with a central one in mind. Lawrence.

Yes, now you mention it, that is a chair - makes sense of the shape of the red area. But it's a very unusual chair, so for an unusual (unusually important) person? The banner could be an Agnus Dei, but I'm not familiar with that - sorry! I first saw that gent as some sort of music master, leading the singing, but you may be right - in fact it could be he who sits in that chair when he's not giving out gifts. A bit like a king on a throne, with his 'riches' displayed around him. Perhaps he's a headmaster, director, president, etc.? Lawrence On 15/11/2012 08:30, Dudley Diaper wrote: > I thought the object in front of the nearer altar was a chair, the red > part being the seat. But I'm not sure who would sit there. And the one > behind the pulpit is what I thought was an Agnus Dei, a lamb carrying > a banner. > > The gentleman standing on the right is in a brown suit, while everyone > else officiating is in a gown. Is he a guest of honour, handing out > rewards to the children? > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "La Greenall" <eldeworth@googlemail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:41 PM > To: "Dudley Diaper" <dudley@fivers.plus.com> > Cc: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com>; <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > >> Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your >> less untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very >> familiar with the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly >> high-church to me. Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some >> sort of other small screen (it looks like a fire-screen to me but >> obviously isn't). It seems to bear a heraldic shield which has a >> black background, a red thing (sash?) running horizontally across the >> middle, and three objects possibly in gold which might be >> candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The shape of the >> screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also unusual >> in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on both >> sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the >> top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very >> over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such >> poor quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but >> left the focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on >> close inspection. >> >> I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other >> well-known connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly >> unloved enough by its people to be packed off into museum storage! >> Any church with Burges connections would surely consider such an >> object one of the gems in their crown? But on the other hand, this >> church is clearly architect-designed and of the Victorian period, and >> that single wooden chair to the right of the high altar looks >> possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the architecture >> (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant and >> unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for >> its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas >> High Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval >> Catholic ornament. >> >> And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the >> wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same >> group and this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or >> thanksgiving perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people >> forward of the frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with >> one jacketed exception who could be a teacher. Most seem to have >> short back and side haircuts, which could suggest younger children >> rather than older, and perhaps a boarding school. >> >> Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to >> be mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation >> on the other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on >> the crossing pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have >> an unusual and distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at >> least would have been if the photo was any good! >> >> I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from >> one school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the >> central aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an >> active musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the >> choir, with everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is >> certainly interesting that the primary focal point, the centre of >> attention, from all angles, seems to be firmly on these choristers. >> The minister and his three cohorts are clearly singing along (either >> that or yawning). >> >> And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more >> curious, it looks like some sort of unusually special offering is >> being made. Whatever is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long >> unscrolled parchment? Being directly behind the heraldic screen may >> suggest a connection - could this be the deed granting the land for >> the church by some local lord? On the other hand it doesn't look that >> much like a scroll and could be several small objects, perhaps hymn >> books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts or prizes for the >> choristers or schoolchildren? >> >> Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and >> could explain why there would be a second table in front of the >> sanctuary steps? It does look as if the church is giving something >> out via this table to the congregation. >> >> Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing >> face contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to >> me, or are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks >> most like a tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and >> 19th century domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but >> even so, it being at 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for >> educational reasons, to train singers. Could this be a university or >> school chapel? >> >> Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used >> it all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. >> >> Cheers to all, >> Lawrence. > > > >

I thought the object in front of the nearer altar was a chair, the red part being the seat. But I'm not sure who would sit there. And the one behind the pulpit is what I thought was an Agnus Dei, a lamb carrying a banner. The gentleman standing on the right is in a brown suit, while everyone else officiating is in a gown. Is he a guest of honour, handing out rewards to the children? -------------------------------------------------- From: "La Greenall" <eldeworth@googlemail.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:41 PM To: "Dudley Diaper" <dudley@fivers.plus.com> Cc: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com>; <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your less > untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very familiar with > the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly high-church to me. > Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some sort of other small screen > (it looks like a fire-screen to me but obviously isn't). It seems to bear > a heraldic shield which has a black background, a red thing (sash?) > running horizontally across the middle, and three objects possibly in gold > which might be candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The > shape of the screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also > unusual in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on > both sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the > top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very > over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such poor > quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but left the > focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on close > inspection. > > I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other well-known > connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly unloved enough by > its people to be packed off into museum storage! Any church with Burges > connections would surely consider such an object one of the gems in their > crown? But on the other hand, this church is clearly architect-designed > and of the Victorian period, and that single wooden chair to the right of > the high altar looks possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the > architecture (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant > and unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for > its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas High > Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval Catholic > ornament. > > And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the > wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same group and > this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or thanksgiving > perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people forward of the > frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with one jacketed exception > who could be a teacher. Most seem to have short back and side haircuts, > which could suggest younger children rather than older, and perhaps a > boarding school. > > Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to be > mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation on the > other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on the crossing > pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have an unusual and > distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at least would have been > if the photo was any good! > > I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from one > school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the central > aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an active > musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the choir, with > everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is certainly interesting > that the primary focal point, the centre of attention, from all angles, > seems to be firmly on these choristers. The minister and his three cohorts > are clearly singing along (either that or yawning). > > And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more curious, it > looks like some sort of unusually special offering is being made. Whatever > is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long unscrolled parchment? Being > directly behind the heraldic screen may suggest a connection - could this > be the deed granting the land for the church by some local lord? On the > other hand it doesn't look that much like a scroll and could be several > small objects, perhaps hymn books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts > or prizes for the choristers or schoolchildren? > > Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and could > explain why there would be a second table in front of the sanctuary steps? > It does look as if the church is giving something out via this table to > the congregation. > > Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing face > contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to me, or > are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks most like a > tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and 19th century > domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but even so, it being at > 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for educational reasons, to > train singers. Could this be a university or school chapel? > > Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used it > all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. > > Cheers to all, > Lawrence.

It may of help locating this unknown church if it is possible to visualise the likely exterior. Given the arched semi-hexagonal nave and the apparent larger than village church size of the building, I found this illustration, (link below), of St Andrew's' Plaistow which I am not certain if it still exists. Although The nave does not appear to be exactly the same, it's possibly a good guide what the exterior of this unknown church looked like. Michael http://archiseek.com/2010/1870-church-of-st-andrew-plaistow-essex/ -----Original Message----- From: La Greenall Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:02 PM To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: [Ess] Help needed identifying church Can anyone help identify a church from an interior view please? It is supposed to be in Essex but may not be. The most striking feature is that its is very large, more like a cathedral than a humble parish church. I've uploaded a photo to the web if anyone cares to have a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/prastagus/8182322561/ All I know for certain is that the pulpit which can be seen in the photo was commissioned from William Burges in 1876 by Elizabeth, the widow of Captain Samuel Bolton Edenborough, West Essex Yeomen Cavalry, a London woolbroker and director of the Imperial Bank (1804-73), in his memory. It was carved in marble by a Peter White of Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, and installed in the parish church at Waltham Abbey, Essex (which is not the church in the photo). Waltham Abbey church's altar and reredos were also commissioned from William Burges by Mrs. Edenborough as part of her husband's memorial. They are still present, but the pulpit was taken down, probably in the mid 1960s, and the old wooden 1658 pulpit it originally replaced was put back up, and is still standing today. The marble Edenborough pulpit then found a temporary new home in the unknown church, as shown in the photo which probably dates to the 1980s or very early 1990s (it was acquired in 1993). Since then, this pulpit was removed from the unknown church and is currently stored in Epping Forest District Museum's collection. They would very much like to know the identity of the unknown church, and any help would be much appreciated. Elizabeth was Samuel's second wife; her maiden name was Guild and they married at Chelsea in 1851. He married his first wife Harriet Berridge (c.1817-49) in the Edmonton RD (possibly Enfield?) in 1845. They had a daughter "Minna" Edenborough (FreeBMD wrongly has "Mirma") in 1846, who (as Mina, a pet form of Wilhelmina) married Henry Wilson Demain Saunders (1822-88) in 1871. His first wife's father was the Birmingham MP Thomas Attwood (1831 Reform Bill). Mina and Henry had a daughter Constance in 1871, who was all set to marry Arthur Henry Kingsley, a nephew of Charles Kingsley - but when Mina became a widow in 1888 Arthur surprised everyone by marrying her instead of her daughter! Arthur and Mina settled at Brickendon, Herts, where they were great local benefactors and are fondly remembered today. Constance Saunders seems not to have married, but was a magistrate and a governor of the Monoux school in Walthamstow, a genealogist, vice president of East Herts. Archaeology Society, and chairman of Brickendon Parish Council 1931-1945. [Thanks to my friend Grenville Weltch whose book Lifetimes of Achievement was the source for much of this.] If it helps identification of the church, a few architectural details can be described from the photo, as follows (though I'm no expert at this!): Notable semi-octagonal eastern apse, each face having one tall slender single lancet window and a triple-arched sedilia-like blind arcade below; Seems to have transepts (i.e. possibly a central crossing and central tower?); Sanctuary arch / central crossing pillars have 8 shafts each; very wide central aisle (10 feet?). Thanks in advance for any help you can give - we've run out of local 'experts'! Lawrence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which caught my attention was http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search suggestions. Paul Parker, Auckland NZ

Hi Muriel. Were you thinking of a a particular church? There are lots in Brighton. I tried looking through the Sussex parish churches site (http://www.sussexparishchurches.org) but didn't find anything obvious. One with a "polygonal" apse is St. Barbabas: http://www.roughwood.net/ChurchAlbum/EastSussex/Hove/HoveStBarnabas2005.htm ...but I think you'll agree that the interior shot shown here doesn't look the same as my unknown church: http://www.sussexparishchurches.org/content/view/63/34/ Or was it another one in your mind? Regards, Lawrence On 14/11/2012 19:51, Muriel wrote: > I suggest it could be in Brighton . Two things that distinguish it would be the apse end and the liturgical bent ie Anglo-catholic. Well I tried Muriel > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks v much Dudley. It is a puzzle! I agree with everything your less untutored eye than you think it is told you; I'm not very familiar with the finer points of Protestantism but it looks fairly high-church to me. Behind the red banner with a gold crown is some sort of other small screen (it looks like a fire-screen to me but obviously isn't). It seems to bear a heraldic shield which has a black background, a red thing (sash?) running horizontally across the middle, and three objects possibly in gold which might be candlesticks or chessmen. That sort of shape anyway. The shape of the screen, if it is meant to resemble a heraldic shield, is also unusual in being doubly a-bouche, i.e. having a jousting lance socket on both sides near the top corners. There would normally only be one on the top left corner as we look at it (for right-handed jousters). Very over-elaborate and ornate (Germanic?). It's a shame the photo is such poor quality - I've improved (slightly) the tonal range and hue, but left the focussing/sharpness alone, as it only makes things worse on close inspection. I also suspect that the church couldn't be one that has other well-known connections to Burges, because his pulpit was clearly unloved enough by its people to be packed off into museum storage! Any church with Burges connections would surely consider such an object one of the gems in their crown? But on the other hand, this church is clearly architect-designed and of the Victorian period, and that single wooden chair to the right of the high altar looks possibly Burgesian to me. However, the rest of the architecture (mouldings, arches, pillars, capitals) is too plainly elegant and unfussy to be Burges. It seems to embrace the spirit of modern (for its time) Protestantism with slightly puritanical overtones, whereas High Gothic was partly about rediscovering the richness of medieval Catholic ornament. And I think Steve is right to notice the schoolboys between the wheelchairs - perhaps the wheelchair-goers were part of the same group and this is some sort of special service, a commemoration or thanksgiving perhaps? Or a prize-giving... In fact most of the people forward of the frontmost wheelchair also seem to be children, with one jacketed exception who could be a teacher. Most seem to have short back and side haircuts, which could suggest younger children rather than older, and perhaps a boarding school. Is it also noteworthy that the choir members in front of them seem to be mostly black? Could this church be in a big city? The congregation on the other side are much less distinguishable, but beyond them on the crossing pillar behind the pulpit is a banner which seems to have an unusual and distinctive design. This must be identifiable, or at least would have been if the photo was any good! I wonder if this is a service being attended mainly by children from one school, with their relatives seated on the other side of the central aisle, in sort of wedding fashion. Perhaps the school has an active musical department and some of its pupils are singing in the choir, with everyone else there to see them doing so well. It is certainly interesting that the primary focal point, the centre of attention, from all angles, seems to be firmly on these choristers. The minister and his three cohorts are clearly singing along (either that or yawning). And why two altars, or are they? The one nearest to us is more curious, it looks like some sort of unusually special offering is being made. Whatever is placed on it is a mystery to me - a long unscrolled parchment? Being directly behind the heraldic screen may suggest a connection - could this be the deed granting the land for the church by some local lord? On the other hand it doesn't look that much like a scroll and could be several small objects, perhaps hymn books, lying side by side. Maybe they're gifts or prizes for the choristers or schoolchildren? Maybe someone on this list has some insight into CofE rituals and could explain why there would be a second table in front of the sanctuary steps? It does look as if the church is giving something out via this table to the congregation. Lastly, the organ console seems to be placed at 45 degrees, allowing face contact between organist and congregation. This seems unusual to me, or are they playing a portable organ or piano instead? It looks most like a tall chamber organ to me (i.e. to suit grand 18th and 19th century domestic accommodation with very high ceilings), but even so, it being at 45 degs seems quirky. Almost as if set up for educational reasons, to train singers. Could this be a university or school chapel? Anyway, I tried to include a genealogical thread last time but I used it all up and don't want to annoy our ringleader any more. Cheers to all, Lawrence. On 14/11/2012 15:54, Dudley Diaper wrote: > Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. > The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks > semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather > Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. > > The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the > banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of > which, etc. etc. > > Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say > "Welcome to St. ......'s" > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:01 PM > To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan Nelson [mailto:elder53@btinternet.com] >> Sent: 14 November 2012 09:08 >> To: 'Paul Parker' >> Cc: 'essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com' >> Subject: RE: [Ess] Help needed identifying church >> >> try www.geograph.org.uk/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] >> On Behalf Of Paul Parker >> Sent: 14 November 2012 09:51 >> To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Ess] Help needed identifying church >> >> Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, >> most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which >> caught my attention was >> http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the >> church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an >> octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search >> suggestions. >> Paul Parker, Auckland NZ >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Even viewing the large version of the picture and then zooming it to 800% I can't get any legible writing off the notice in front of the nearer candles. But while scrolling around after a zoom, I suddenly noticed that the 4 rows to the right hand side, between the 2 wheelchairs, seem to be populated exclusively by schoolboys. Is this some sort of clue? Steve On 14/11/2012 15:54, Dudley Diaper wrote: > Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. > The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks > semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather > Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. > > The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the > banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of > which, etc. etc. > > Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say > "Welcome to St. ......'s" >

Some searches lead to St Fin Barre's, Cork, but the picture doesn't match. The part of the church behind the altar - apse? chancel? looks semi-octagonal. And the whole effect looks to my untutored eye rather Victorian, and large. None of which solves the original question. The banner behind the pulpit may be a Paschal Lamb, Agnus Dei. And the banner in the aisle between two candles looks like a crown. Neither of which, etc. etc. Can anyone read the notice in front of the nearer two candles? It might say "Welcome to St. ......'s" -------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Nelson" <elder53@btinternet.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:01 PM To: <essex-uk@rootsweb.com> Subject: [Ess] FW: Help needed identifying church > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Nelson [mailto:elder53@btinternet.com] > Sent: 14 November 2012 09:08 > To: 'Paul Parker' > Cc: 'essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com' > Subject: RE: [Ess] Help needed identifying church > > try www.geograph.org.uk/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Paul Parker > Sent: 14 November 2012 09:51 > To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Ess] Help needed identifying church > > Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, > most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which > caught my attention was > http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the > church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an > octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search > suggestions. > Paul Parker, Auckland NZ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I suggest it could be in Brighton . Two things that distinguish it would be the apse end and the liturgical bent ie Anglo-catholic. Well I tried Muriel

-----Original Message----- From: Alan Nelson [mailto:elder53@btinternet.com] Sent: 14 November 2012 09:08 To: 'Paul Parker' Cc: 'essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com' Subject: RE: [Ess] Help needed identifying church try www.geograph.org.uk/ -----Original Message----- From: essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:essex-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Parker Sent: 14 November 2012 09:51 To: essex-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Ess] Help needed identifying church Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which caught my attention was http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search suggestions. Paul Parker, Auckland NZ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thankyou very much, Paul. Unfortunately the description is of an "octagonal oak pulpit" (our one is marble) and says that it "was given in 1919 in memory of the founders" - so I would be surprised if they replaced such a prominent memorial only half a century later. But if they did, that church would have been a good home for a Burges-designed pulpit. I'll see if I can find some images on the web. I too tried goggling, but must have given up before you did! Or you get different results over there. Cheers, Lawrence On 14/11/2012 09:51, Paul Parker wrote: > Hi, I Googled "Pulpit + William + Burges" and came up with many entries, > most of which mean little to me as regards location; however one which > caught my attention was > http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1403249 re the > church of St John The Baptist, Outwood, Tandridge, Surrey, which has an > octagonal pulpit (but no photo). This might give you some more search > suggestions. > Paul Parker, Auckland NZ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On 13/11/2012 16:16, Steve wrote: > Have you looked at/contacted http://www.essexchurches.info/ ?? > > Steve Yes, many times - it's one of my fave sites. The gallery does allow most of the parishes to be discounted at a glance, but that's not an error-free method, and there's too many to go through individually! Thanks anyway, Lawrence

Hi Listers I have Three (3) photostat pictures of people and houses showing Maple End Lane in Radwinter Essex. I am not sure of the date but I think itcould be either the late 1800s or early 1900s. Iif anyone is interested contact me and I will forward them. I obtained them whilst researching my Grandmother who was from that area. Regards John in Canada

Have you looked at/contacted http://www.essexchurches.info/ ?? Steve On 13/11/2012 16:02, La Greenall wrote: > Can anyone help identify a church from an interior view please? It is > supposed to be in Essex but may not be. The most striking feature is > that its is very large, more like a cathedral than a humble parish > church. I've uploaded a photo to the web if anyone cares to have a look: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/prastagus/8182322561/ > > All I know for certain is that the pulpit which can be seen in the photo > was commissioned from William Burges in 1876 by Elizabeth, the widow of > Captain Samuel Bolton Edenborough, West Essex Yeomen Cavalry, a London > woolbroker and director of the Imperial Bank (1804-73), in his memory. > It was carved in marble by a Peter White of Vauxhall Bridge Road, > London, and installed in the parish church at Waltham Abbey, Essex > (which is not the church in the photo). > > Waltham Abbey church's altar and reredos were also commissioned from > William Burges by Mrs. Edenborough as part of her husband's memorial. > They are still present, but the pulpit was taken down, probably in the > mid 1960s, and the old wooden 1658 pulpit it originally replaced was put > back up, and is still standing today. The marble Edenborough pulpit then > found a temporary new home in the unknown church, as shown in the photo > which probably dates to the 1980s or very early 1990s (it was acquired > in 1993). > > Since then, this pulpit was removed from the unknown church and is > currently stored in Epping Forest District Museum's collection. They > would very much like to know the identity of the unknown church, and any > help would be much appreciated. > > Elizabeth was Samuel's second wife; her maiden name was Guild and they > married at Chelsea in 1851. He married his first wife Harriet Berridge > (c.1817-49) in the Edmonton RD (possibly Enfield?) in 1845. > > They had a daughter "Minna" Edenborough (FreeBMD wrongly has "Mirma") in > 1846, who (as Mina, a pet form of Wilhelmina) married Henry Wilson > Demain Saunders (1822-88) in 1871. His first wife's father was the > Birmingham MP Thomas Attwood (1831 Reform Bill). > > Mina and Henry had a daughter Constance in 1871, who was all set to > marry Arthur Henry Kingsley, a nephew of Charles Kingsley - but when > Mina became a widow in 1888 Arthur surprised everyone by marrying her > instead of her daughter! Arthur and Mina settled at Brickendon, Herts, > where they were great local benefactors and are fondly remembered today. > > Constance Saunders seems not to have married, but was a magistrate and a > governor of the Monoux school in Walthamstow, a genealogist, vice > president of East Herts. Archaeology Society, and chairman of Brickendon > Parish Council 1931-1945. > > [Thanks to my friend Grenville Weltch whose book Lifetimes of > Achievement was the source for much of this.] > > If it helps identification of the church, a few architectural details > can be described from the photo, as follows (though I'm no expert at > this!): > > Notable semi-octagonal eastern apse, each face having one tall slender > single lancet window and a triple-arched sedilia-like blind arcade below; > Seems to have transepts (i.e. possibly a central crossing and central > tower?); > Sanctuary arch / central crossing pillars have 8 shafts each; > very wide central aisle (10 feet?). > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give - we've run out of local > 'experts'! > > Lawrence. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: Essex-UK-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ESSEX-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Can anyone help identify a church from an interior view please? It is supposed to be in Essex but may not be. The most striking feature is that its is very large, more like a cathedral than a humble parish church. I've uploaded a photo to the web if anyone cares to have a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/prastagus/8182322561/ All I know for certain is that the pulpit which can be seen in the photo was commissioned from William Burges in 1876 by Elizabeth, the widow of Captain Samuel Bolton Edenborough, West Essex Yeomen Cavalry, a London woolbroker and director of the Imperial Bank (1804-73), in his memory. It was carved in marble by a Peter White of Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, and installed in the parish church at Waltham Abbey, Essex (which is not the church in the photo). Waltham Abbey church's altar and reredos were also commissioned from William Burges by Mrs. Edenborough as part of her husband's memorial. They are still present, but the pulpit was taken down, probably in the mid 1960s, and the old wooden 1658 pulpit it originally replaced was put back up, and is still standing today. The marble Edenborough pulpit then found a temporary new home in the unknown church, as shown in the photo which probably dates to the 1980s or very early 1990s (it was acquired in 1993). Since then, this pulpit was removed from the unknown church and is currently stored in Epping Forest District Museum's collection. They would very much like to know the identity of the unknown church, and any help would be much appreciated. Elizabeth was Samuel's second wife; her maiden name was Guild and they married at Chelsea in 1851. He married his first wife Harriet Berridge (c.1817-49) in the Edmonton RD (possibly Enfield?) in 1845. They had a daughter "Minna" Edenborough (FreeBMD wrongly has "Mirma") in 1846, who (as Mina, a pet form of Wilhelmina) married Henry Wilson Demain Saunders (1822-88) in 1871. His first wife's father was the Birmingham MP Thomas Attwood (1831 Reform Bill). Mina and Henry had a daughter Constance in 1871, who was all set to marry Arthur Henry Kingsley, a nephew of Charles Kingsley - but when Mina became a widow in 1888 Arthur surprised everyone by marrying her instead of her daughter! Arthur and Mina settled at Brickendon, Herts, where they were great local benefactors and are fondly remembered today. Constance Saunders seems not to have married, but was a magistrate and a governor of the Monoux school in Walthamstow, a genealogist, vice president of East Herts. Archaeology Society, and chairman of Brickendon Parish Council 1931-1945. [Thanks to my friend Grenville Weltch whose book Lifetimes of Achievement was the source for much of this.] If it helps identification of the church, a few architectural details can be described from the photo, as follows (though I'm no expert at this!): Notable semi-octagonal eastern apse, each face having one tall slender single lancet window and a triple-arched sedilia-like blind arcade below; Seems to have transepts (i.e. possibly a central crossing and central tower?); Sanctuary arch / central crossing pillars have 8 shafts each; very wide central aisle (10 feet?). Thanks in advance for any help you can give - we've run out of local 'experts'! Lawrence.

Found the following in the parish church of Great Dunmow Essex, ref. D/P 11/1/2 12 October 1682 John Leardner [baptised] a Quakers' son of Bourton on ye Water in Gloceftershire being about fifteen years old. Someone may be searching for him? Glyn