Hi Terry, Can I say first that we can't generalize on why things were done a certain way in a certain area. What I can say after being a transcriber of Parish registers for years and we are currently transcribing St Marie RC Cathedral in Sheffield and these are the findings from their registers. We started in 1840 with a small number of entries being in English but very quickly being changed to "Latin". Our findings when a child was presented for baptism the christian names would be translated into Latin causing all kinds of problems. If the name has been given as John William it would be Latinized as Joannes Gulielmus so nothing would change other than the priest lack of knowledge on a true spelling as we have found. I wish I had a Dollar for every different spelling of William we have found. The Celtic example you have given I can see a priest being presented with a child called Liam Patrick he would have been entered in the register as Guilielmus Patricius(sic) with no mention of Liam Patrick so that could be where the misunderstanding has occurred. The Latin registers continued right through to the 1970's when the language of the church ceased to be Latin. I would suspect that your baptismal entry is Terenius Petrus unless priest couldn't spelt it and came up with another spelling. I just wish I could show you what we are transcribing and you would see what we are dealing with. Dont forget that most of the priest were Irish so no discrimination should have been there. All non conformist marriages which includes Catholics had to have a registrar present by Law until the priests became registrars as the Anglicans were. I believe that was about 1870ish. So a number of years after Civil Registration started. There were so few Catholic Churches prior to about 1840 that there was very little choice. Folks were so used to hiding the fact that they were Catholic that the practice carried on for years after they were given the rights to worship as they chose. I believe that Catholics were only 10% of the population at that time and as they are today. I hope this gives you further insight into what was happening in the church. Elaine Pickard Sheffield Indexers List Adm http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/ -----Original Message----- From: TERRY HOPKIN- SUNDBY Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 12:50 PM To: yorkshire list Subject: Re: [YORKSHIRE] Given-Name Change? MY GIVEN NAME IS Terry my church name is Peter and there are quite a few of my age who also regardless of whether the given name was first second or third the church would not baptize with the given name included. There were priests who would, great if you live in a city were one could always go to another parish, but it is only in recent times that adding a Peter, Paul, or Mary etc lets the whole be baptized. There was also a prejudice against Celtic and Gaelic first names, not mention the languages, so again one was very dependent on the priest, or vicar, as to whether they would be accepted. I used 1800 but as you say 1837 regards Terry National day here in Greece tomorrow, flags everywhere and my Greek grandchildren busy getting ready for the parades > From: trayford@rogers.com > To: eng-yorkshire@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:15:47 -0400 > Subject: Re: [YORKSHIRE] Given-Name Change? > > Terry, > > How sure are you of your facts? I for one have never heard of that > explanation before and the parish registers I have read certainly don't > seem > to indicate it. > > I also don't understand where the date of 1800 comes into the picture. > Civil > registration started July 1837. > > I understand that most Catholics would chose their children's names by > family tradition which also played a part in the choice of names. Many > being > given a Saints name as their middle name. > Don't forget that Catholics by Law would have had their children baptised > at > the local Anglican church in 1800. > > In my husbands family his mothers Catholic family circa 1890's all the > girls > were called Mary with them being known by their middle names of > Gertrude,Lucy,Clara, etc. > > The use of given name I thought was a recent invention as it covered our > non > Christian neighbours. > > > Would be interested to hear your comments. > > > Elaine in Ottawa. > > -----Original Message----- > From: TERRY HOPKIN- SUNDBY > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 6:39 AM > To: yorkshire list > Subject: Re: [YORKSHIRE] Given-Name Change? > > > hi > for many of us when we were baptized, the church refused to accept the > name > given by the parent so we finished up with a name given to registrar and > another when baptized;-- you will note that on a full birth certificate > there is a section for additional baptismal names. Church names have > always > been seen as Christian names and those given by parents and registered at > the registrar as the given name. (most often Catholics and high church) as > you know before 1800 it was the church who registered by baptism but > after > 1800 there are censuses and names "first names" on the census may well > be > the given name and not the Church or Christian name > regards > Terry > > > > From: ovington1@sky.com > > To: eng-yorkshire@rootsweb.com > > Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:59:20 +0100 > > Subject: Re: [YORKSHIRE] Given-Name Change? > > > > Hi Terry > > > > I would be interested to know what your definition of Christian name , > > Given > > name or any other variety is > > > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > > > > > > > > > It actually is Heather because there are plenty of ancestors with > > > Christian names that aren't their every day given name. Not so bad > > > when > > > it is the state registering the name but earlier before 1800 you can > > > find > > > that the name given when baptized is not the name you find given in > > > the > > > early censuses because the family given name is used and not the > > > Christian > > > name. Was a bit surprised that people thought given name was something > > > new, even worse that some people didn't know the difference and its > > > consequences in our hobby > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > Some useful websites - > > FREECEN - http://www.freecen.org.uk/ > > FREEBMD - http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ > > FREEREG - http://www.freereg.org.uk/ > > > > Want to know where a place in Yorkshire is - Try Genuki > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > ENG-YORKSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > Some useful websites - > FREECEN - http://www.freecen.org.uk/ > FREEBMD - http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ > FREEREG - http://www.freereg.org.uk/ > > Want to know where a place in Yorkshire is - Try Genuki > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-YORKSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3220 - Release Date: 10/26/10 > 02:34:00 > > > > > Some useful websites - > FREECEN - http://www.freecen.org.uk/ > FREEBMD - http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ > FREEREG - http://www.freereg.org.uk/ > > Want to know where a place in Yorkshire is - Try Genuki > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-YORKSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message Some useful websites - FREECEN - http://www.freecen.org.uk/ FREEBMD - http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ FREEREG - http://www.freereg.org.uk/ Want to know where a place in Yorkshire is - Try Genuki http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-YORKSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3222 - Release Date: 10/27/10 02:34:00