Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He was married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. He died on 29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in Sandy Lane. His gravestone says he was aged 81. I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing? GJ

Great piece of detective work from Roy! Look forward to hearing if his theory is correct, it certainly sounds very feasible. Do you have the family in all the census? I can see them in 1861, surname spelling WATMOUGH - if you would like the image, I can forward it to you. Best wishes Janet C >From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: [ENG-YKS-BRADFORD] Watmuff >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:47:41 +0100 > >Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > >He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He was >married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. He died on >29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in Sandy Lane. His >gravestone says he was aged 81. > >I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing? > >GJ > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> > Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > > He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He > was married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. He > died on 29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in > Sandy Lane. His gravestone says he was aged 81. > > I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing?> I believe I may have the solution for you! I searched the GRO Indexes at 1837online for the years 1854 and 1855. In the July-September quarter of 1854 is a WATSON WATMUFF, born at Bradford (Vol 9b page 89). The next name immediately below this is the first of many Watsons, an Albert Watson also born at Bradford. My first thought was that the clerk who wrote up the indexes made a mistake, had a momentary lapse and wrote "Watson" as the christian name of the Watmuff birth, being distracted by the Watson immediately after it. However, I then found the family on the 1881 census discs. Ambrose and his wife Alice and their two children, Wilfred aged 1 and another son only 6 days old (unnamed and enumerated as "Infant Watmuff") were living with Ambrose's parents, Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff, at 3 Sandy Lane Bottom, Heaton (which is near Shipley). Ambrose is aged 26, placing his birth correctly as circa 1854/5. However, also in the household is a 9- year-old brother of Ambrose's called WATSON WATMUFF! I would take a modest bet that the child born in the Sep quarter of 1854 was Ambrose - possibly called Ambrose Watson or Watson Ambrose - and that later Joseph and Rebecca had another son who they also decided to call Watson (possibly Watson was Rebecca's maiden surname). I suggest you apply for the birth certificate of Watson Watmuff born in 1854, being sure to put in the reference checking that his father was Joseph and his mother Rebecca, so that at least you will get some of your money back if it's wrong. Let us know if I'm right, would you? -- Roy Stockdill Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: "Roy Stockdill" <[email protected]> > From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> > > > Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > > > > He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He > > was married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. > > He died on 29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in > > Sandy Lane. His gravestone says he was aged 81. > > > > I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing?> > > I believe I may have the solution for you! > > I searched the GRO Indexes at 1837online for the years 1854 and 1855. > In the July-September quarter of 1854 is a WATSON WATMUFF, born at > Bradford (Vol 9b page 89). The next name immediately below this is the > first of many Watsons, an Albert Watson also born at Bradford. My > first thought was that the clerk who wrote up the indexes made a > mistake, had a momentary lapse and wrote "Watson" as the christian > name of the Watmuff birth, being distracted by the Watson immediately > after it. > > However, I then found the family on the 1881 census discs. Ambrose and > his wife Alice and their two children, Wilfred aged 1 and another son > only 6 days old (unnamed and enumerated as "Infant Watmuff") were > living with Ambrose's parents, Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff, at 3 Sandy > Lane Bottom, Heaton (which is near Shipley). Ambrose is aged 26, > placing his birth correctly as circa 1854/5. However, also in the > household is a 9- year-old brother of Ambrose's called WATSON WATMUFF! > > I would take a modest bet that the child born in the Sep quarter of > 1854 was Ambrose - possibly called Ambrose Watson or Watson Ambrose - > and that later Joseph and Rebecca had another son who they also > decided to call Watson (possibly Watson was Rebecca's maiden surname). > I suggest you apply for the birth certificate of Watson Watmuff born > in 1854, being sure to put in the reference checking that his father > was Joseph and his mother Rebecca, so that at least you will get some > of your money back if it's wrong. > > Let us know if I'm right, would you?> Sorry, I missed the fact in your message that Rebecca's maiden name was Ratcliffe. However, I suspect Watson may well have been a grandmother's name. This was very common, ie to name a child with its grandmother's maiden surname. -- Roy Stockdill Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: "Roy Stockdill" <[email protected]> > From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> > > > Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > > > > He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He > > was married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. > > He died on 29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in > > Sandy Lane. His gravestone says he was aged 81. > > > > I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing?> > > I believe I may have the solution for you! > > I searched the GRO Indexes at 1837online for the years 1854 and 1855. > In the July-September quarter of 1854 is a WATSON WATMUFF, born at > Bradford (Vol 9b page 89). The next name immediately below this is the > first of many Watsons, an Albert Watson also born at Bradford. My > first thought was that the clerk who wrote up the indexes made a > mistake, had a momentary lapse and wrote "Watson" as the christian > name of the Watmuff birth, being distracted by the Watson immediately > after it. > > However, I then found the family on the 1881 census discs. Ambrose and > his wife Alice and their two children, Wilfred aged 1 and another son > only 6 days old (unnamed and enumerated as "Infant Watmuff") were > living with Ambrose's parents, Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff, at 3 Sandy > Lane Bottom, Heaton (which is near Shipley). Ambrose is aged 26, > placing his birth correctly as circa 1854/5. However, also in the > household is a 9- year-old brother of Ambrose's called WATSON WATMUFF! > > I would take a modest bet that the child born in the Sep quarter of > 1854 was Ambrose - possibly called Ambrose Watson or Watson Ambrose - > and that later Joseph and Rebecca had another son who they also > decided to call Watson (possibly Watson was Rebecca's maiden surname). > I suggest you apply for the birth certificate of Watson Watmuff born > in 1854, being sure to put in the reference checking that his father > was Joseph and his mother Rebecca, so that at least you will get some > of your money back if it's wrong. > > Let us know if I'm right, would you?> OOPS! I've just been into FreeBMD and noticed that the Watson Watmuff born at Bradford in the September quarter of 1854 died in the following quarter, so bang goes my theory ! However, Watson was very probably a son of Joseph and Rebecca since they had another son called Watson born in the December quarter of 1871, who is the one in the 1881 census. So was Ambrose a twin of the first Watson Watmuff and for some peculiar reason they only registered one child??? Back to the drawing board! This is one of the more interesting queries of recent days. -- Roy Stockdill Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

The coverage on FreeBMD for the 1850's is very patchy, have you checked the images for 1854 and 1855 to see if his birth is in the index, but not yet covered by FreeBMD? They can be viewed on FreeBMD or Ancestry. If he is not there you will have to write to the registrar for the area he was born to ask them to check for his birth. There is always the possibility that he wasn't registered. Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: [ENG-YKS-BRADFORD] Watmuff > Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > > He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He was > married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. He died on > 29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in Sandy Lane. His > gravestone says he was aged 81. > > I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing? > > GJ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ______________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by Netintelligence > http://www.netintelligence.com/email > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 22/09/2006 > >

Hi again It's on YorkshireBMD site:- http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk 1854 - WHATMOUGH Ambrose Shipley Bradford SHIP/12/14 You can follow the link at the end of the entry on the site to order the certificate direct from the local registrar. Hope this helps Janet C >From: "Garry Johnson" <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: [ENG-YKS-BRADFORD] Watmuff >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 10:47:41 +0100 > >Can anyone help me with AMBROSE WATMUFF? > >He was the son of Joseph and Rebecca Watmuff (she was Ratcliffe). He was >married to Alice Drake at Shipley parish church on 12 Nov 1878. He died on >29 March 1936 and is buried at Bethesda Baptist Chapel in Sandy Lane. His >gravestone says he was aged 81. > >I can't find documentation of his birth. What I am I missing? > >GJ > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

From: "Janet C" <[email protected]> > Hi again > > It's on YorkshireBMD site:- http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk > > 1854 - WHATMOUGH Ambrose Shipley Bradford SHIP/12/14 > > You can follow the link at the end of the entry on the site to order > the certificate direct from the local registrar.> I can now confirm that the entry is also in the GRO Indexes in the June quarter of 1854. Silly me - when I looked earlier and couldn't find it I didn't look for the name with an "H" after the "W" ! Clearly, either the family or different officials spelt it in several different ways, i.e Watmough, Whatmough and Watmuff, while in the 1837online version of the 1861 census he has been mistranscribed as AMBROS WALMOUGH. I am still intrigued, though, by the two births I found of a Watson Watmuff. Clearly the first one who was born and died in 1854 could not have been a brother of Ambrose but there was definitely a nine-year-old Watson Watmuff living with the family in the 1881 census. Coincidence or could the first Watson who died in infancy have been a cousin? -- Roy Stockdill Guild of One-Name Studies: www.one-name.org Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE