Hi John, Joseph Barton (Alice's) father was a Gunsmith (confirmed by Alice's Birth Certificate which I received today, excellent service from Birmingham register office). Her mother's former name was Mary Ann Horton. Her father turns out to be a Gun Borer. They lived in the Bishop Ryder area of Birmingham, now obliterated by Aston University Campus and Science Park. I have to research this further but I suspect that Joseph received some kind of apprenticeship in the Gun Trade, met Mary Ann because her father worked with Joseph, They married in Q/E Sept 1853 Aston v 6d p 350. The newlyweds in search of an amazing future life together uproot and take themselves to Enfield. Now I have heard of Enfield I'm sure they are rifles. So young Joseph goes to Enfield to make guns. They have two children, find life is tough or perhaps one of their parents needs help and they come back to Birmingham. Joseph remains a Gun Smith even after Mary Ann's untimely death at the age of 42 in Aston, v6d p79. Joseph is later found living with his younger son and his wife in Aston in 1891. Joseph younger is a Gun Barrel borer. But disaster strikes. In 1895 Q/E Sept Aston v6d p234, Joseph younger dies at the age of 26. Furthermore the elusive Harriet Barton (of Kelly's fame) is found living in Enfield in 1861 with the Barton's. She is 13 years old a Servant and described as a Nursemaid to the two children who are 3 months old and 2 years old respectively. But we still can't find the missing marriage certificate!!!!!!!! That's all for the time being. Any comments are always appreciated. Kind regards Allen -----Original Message----- From: JR [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 20 February 2008 17:18 To: Allen Cook Subject: Re: [WOR] Re Kelly's, Davis, Barton Thanks Allan, Hhmm! interesting birthplace of Elizabeth. I wonder if they arrived in Birmingham by canal? Will let you know if i find Alice with parents or her marriage. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cook" <[email protected]> To: "'JR'" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:10 AM Subject: RE: [WOR] Re Kelly's, Davis, Barton Hi John, I'm a bit wary at this stage to have claimed success on this one but I have found the following. Yes I spotted the 1891 entry but at first I disregarded it as the ages of Alice didn't match. But as you know I am fairly happy that the ages were reversed on the 1901 census. I have sent for Alice's birth certificate from Birmingham RO and am awaiting it's arrival. Furthermore I think I have traced the family in 1871. No Alice of course as it's before her birth but the entry is as follows: 1871 RG10/3143 Folio no 31 Pages 9 - 10 94 Holt St Birmingham (slap bang where I would expect it to be) Joseph Barton Head Mar age 36 Gunsmith B'ham Warwick's Mary Ann Barton Wife mar age 36 B'ham Warwick's Mary Ann Barton dau age 11 Scholar Enfield Middx Elizabeth Barton dau age 11 Scholar Enfield Middx. Joseph Barton son age 2 B'ham Warwick's Mary Ann and Elizabeth are the two sisters on the 1891 census. 1891 Census RG12/2409 Folio 117 Page 21 1 Back of 80 Arthur Street, Bordesley Elizabeth Broadhead Head Widow age 30 Bedstead Ornamenter Born Enfield Lock Middlesex Alice Barton Sister age 14 Button Coverer Born Birmingham Warwick's Rose Broadhead Daughter age 11 Scholar Born Birmingham Warwicks Lizzie Broadhead Daughter age 6 Scholar Born Birmingham Warwicks Marion Broadhead Daughter age 4 Thomas Killiner Lodger age 29 Brickyard labourer Born Smethwick Staffs Mary A Killiner Lodger age 31 Born Enfield Lock Middlesex Thomas Killiner age 5 Born Birmingham Warwicks Horace Killiner age 4 months Born Birmingham Warwicks If you do a search for Elizabeth Broadhead in 1881 she is living with her husband and his parents The strange thing is though his parents are Joseph Broadhead and Mary Ann Broadhead different ages to our Joseph Barton and Mary Ann Barton, but what sort of coincidence is that! But I still can't find Alice in 1881 or her marriage to Albert Edward Davis. Most frustrating. Harriet Barton from the 1916 Kelly's remains a complete mystery at the moment. I might phone ITV and ask for one of the cast of The Bill to help, they seem to solve all their mysteries quite easily!! LOL I'm giving it a rest for the remainder of today. Speak to you later. Thanks for your interest and help. Regards Allen -----Original Message----- From: JR [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 20 February 2008 09:37 To: Allen Cook Subject: Re: [WOR] Re Kelly's, Davis, Barton Hello again Allen, You probably have this; it would seem that Alice aged 14 and a button coverer; is living with her widowed sis in 1891 in Aston. I wonder is the Harriet from Kelly's , Alice's mother or an unmarried aunt! John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Cook" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: [WOR] Re Kelly's, Davis, Barton > Hi John, > > You seem to have the bug! Thanks for your help. The 1901 census is as > follows > > 1901 Census Rg 13/2840 Folio 129 page 26 > > 14 Court 3 Frankfort Street > > Albert Davis Head, Age 24 Pearl Button Cutter Born Birmingham Warwicks > > Alice Davis wife Age 26 Press Worker Born Birmingham Warwicks > > Alice Davis Daughter age 1 born Birmingham Warwicks > > This is definitely them because of the daughter Alice. I have her > wedding and Birth certificate. However I believe Albert and Alice's > ages have been swapped! Alice was 69 in 1946 when she died. This > would make her 24 in 1901. and possibly Albert died in 1937 age 63 > which would make him 26/7 in 1901. Therefore in 1891 Alice would have > been 14 and Albert would have been 16 which rules out both people that > you found. Also according to the original image of the 1901 all the > people on the page were Ditto'd. I've come across this a couple of > times now where the enumerator got it wrong and > they were born elsewhere, the possibility of which opens up a possible can > of worms. The Albert Edward comes from the birth certificate of one of > their > four children. He registered the birth and got his name right. > Everywhere > else Alice seems to have been in control and misses out Edward, which > would > have been the same on his death registration. I'm sorry I'm rambling on > too > much but any further help or suggestions I would be most grateful for. > > Regards > > Allen > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >