Hi Bev, Thanks for your input. Regarding your notes on the diary: It definitely said carriers aprons, not farrier. His hand writing was pretty bad, but this initial letter was very clear. The Scar in this case would have been Orton Scar as the hunt met at Orton on that day. I think there are scars all over the place! I agree with Barnard Castle - that was the only one I could think of which makes sense. Regarding your Thomas KNIPE dilemma - if you have already explored every avenue yourself, then there is probably little I can do to help just using the internet. There are one KNIPE will and one administration at Carlisle Record Office as well up to 1750 (I don't have a later index) which are in the general area you are looking: KNIPE, Jas., servant, Crosscanonby (Netherhall). 1746 AI [169r] KNIPE, Tho., yeo, Greystoke (Matterdale, Wallthwaite). 1732 WI 184 [104] Is it possible that Thomas was illegitimate and not baptised under the name KNIPE but under his mother's maiden name, and later used his father's surname KNIPE? Carlisle Record Office have indexed Recognizances for Cumberland Quarter Sessions for around that period which are basically summonses for fathers of illegitimate children to appear at the Quarter Sessions so that a bastardy bond could be issued compelling them to pay for the upkeep of their illegitimate offspring. There is an index for mothers' names and one for father's names. However, it looks as if you are not looking at the Carlisle area but rather at the Whitehaven area? May still be worth asking Whitehaven Record Office whether they have something equivalent and if so, to look up the surname KNIPE. Another approach (which you may already have tried) might be to research the families of the John and William who left the wills and try to link back to your Thomas from that family. Sorry, can't think of anything else! Petra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bev Kirby" <bev@inkmatehillcrest.co.za> To: <eng-westmorland@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:16 AM Subject: [ENG-WESTMORLAND] Petra'a sleuthing! >I read through all the diary pages and am amazed that you could put all the pieces together- with input from some other very sharp people! Well done! All that I can contribute are the following- and knowing my luck at the moment, I am probably wrong! > Thursday 31 [31=334] bought 3 farrier aprons > Saturday 30 [89-276] tried the Scar [Knipes' Scar near Shap] > Saturday 8 [159-206] is Barnard Castle near enough? > Don't you want to take on my dilemma? Thomas Knipe born about 1780 married Frances Ritson in 1815 Plumbland and died Maryport 1842. When and where was he born? [He was a husbandman/farmer/yeoman] He is not the Thomas born in Uldale, Baildon etc and his father's name was probably John. He might have had a sister Eleanor. I have all the documentation of his, and his decendants- and have turned the Cumbrian Archives inside out- what am I missing? > The KNIPE name is found in both West and Lancs. but I do have wills of a John and William around 1715 St Bees and Whitehaven and a half-brother Thomas Knipe is mentioned. On the 1841 census Thomas was enumerated as having been born in Cumberland. Maybe I will have to accept that we will never know! [ Just as another piece of probably useless info we still have a very strong genetic streak running through- very tall, very fair skin, strawberry blond through to auburn, which is a useless combination if you live in South Africa!!!!] > Thanks for a very entertaining few days! > Bev Kirby