> I think James Rice was born in England, but not in Surrey and Robert > and his mother Elizabeth in Ireland. Thank you. This is what I had thought but I wasn't sure; that's why I wanted someone to double check. Is there anyway I could trace James as I don't know which county to look in? > Have you looked over the page, after the apprentices, where there are > Martha Rice, 13 born Ireland, Ann Rice 8, born out of county, and > Elizabeth Rice, 5 and Esther Rice 2, both born Surrey. > Must be part of the same family. Yes, I had found these, thank you. > In 1851 Esther and Elizabeth are in Essex. Thank you. I had not found these. I started to search for the family member sin 1851 but found nothing. I must have stopped before I got this far. > There's an Elizabeth Rice pauper in the Southwark Union Workhouse > Name: Elizabeth Rice > Age: 50 > Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801 > Relation: Pauper > Gender: Female > Where born: Cork, Ireland > > Occupation servant. Married I think I did find this entry but I was confused about it. If her husband was a whip maker, why would she be in a work house? If James had died leaving her without an income, she might have gone to the work house and yet she is not listed as a widow but as married. I'll have to look for his death in the GRO index. If it is her, then the good news is that it does tell us which part of Ireland she was from. If she is a servant, why is she in a work house rather than living with the family she serves? Thanks, Stephen.

Hi Stephen You might have to resort to purchasing the birth cert of Esther and searching for the baptisms of the other daughters for a wee gem or two! I found an early (pre 1837) baptism which told me the mother was born Toronto Canada which was very helpful for example. Certainly you should follow through all siblings from your parents back to your grandparents and great grandparents because each generation will add something to your know ledge. IF you haven't already done that now is the time to start. Collect births, baptisms, marriages, deaths as basic information for each individual in each branch.. Look for death notices, funeral cards, Christmas cards, photos, hobbies, Scouts, Guides, sports etc info which your family might have under the bed! This information will give you more surnames to search which might lead to finding other family members. Secondly the occupation for Elizabeth in the Workhouse might have related to previous work, or she might have been living in the Workhouse but found casual employment outside or she might have been a servant at the Workhouse for some reason. Remember the Census records where the individual was on that particular night and she might have just "popped in" for a day or week or a fortnight! GOOGLE "England Workhouses" there's some fascinating reading about conditions. Perhaps James & Elizabeth were separated at that time if he was away working? Perhaps he hadn't earned enough money to support her? Every bit of info you gain adds to the total picture and only then can you draw conclusions. And every "gem" raises a thousand more questions! Happy hunting Marlene ----- Original Message ----- From: <genukilists@tinfoil.cotse.net> To: "Anne Peat" <eng-warks-birmingham@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [B'ham] Rice: Robert b. 1828 Ireland m. Birmingham 1850d.1860-1? >> I think James Rice was born in England, but not in Surrey and Robert >> and his mother Elizabeth in Ireland. > > Thank you. This is what I had thought but I wasn't sure; that's why I > wanted someone to double check. Is there anyway I could trace James as > I don't know which county to look in? > >> Have you looked over the page, after the apprentices, where there are >> Martha Rice, 13 born Ireland, Ann Rice 8, born out of county, and >> Elizabeth Rice, 5 and Esther Rice 2, both born Surrey. >> Must be part of the same family. > > Yes, I had found these, thank you. > >> In 1851 Esther and Elizabeth are in Essex. > > Thank you. I had not found these. I started to search for the family > member sin 1851 but found nothing. I must have stopped before I got > this far. > >> There's an Elizabeth Rice pauper in the Southwark Union Workhouse >> Name: Elizabeth Rice >> Age: 50 >> Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801 >> Relation: Pauper >> Gender: Female >> Where born: Cork, Ireland >> >> Occupation servant. Married > > I think I did find this entry but I was confused about it. If her > husband was a whip maker, why would she be in a work house? > > If James had died leaving her without an income, she might have gone > to the work house and yet she is not listed as a widow but as married. > I'll have to look for his death in the GRO index. > > If it is her, then the good news is that it does tell us which part of > Ireland she was from. > > If she is a servant, why is she in a work house rather than living > with the family she serves? > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> You might have to resort to purchasing the birth cert of Esther and > searching for the baptisms of the other daughters for a wee gem or two! I have already ordered this as she is the only child born after 1837. > Certainly you should follow > through all siblings from your parents back to your grandparents and great > grandparents because each generation will add something to your know ledge. Have you bought bmd certificates for all siblings? That will be very expensive! > Secondly the occupation for Elizabeth in the Workhouse might have related to > previous work, or she might have been living in the Workhouse but found > casual employment outside or she might have been a servant at the Workhouse > for some reason. > Remember the Census records where the individual was on that particular > night and she might have just "popped in" for a day or week or a fortnight! > Perhaps James & Elizabeth were separated at that time if he was away > working? Perhaps he hadn't earned enough money to support her? I am confused that she is listed as married. If James was alive I would have thought he would have been there with her. I think I'll have to look for his death in the GRO index as I cannot find him in the 1861 census. Thanks, Stephen.

Hi Stephen It CAN be a very expensive hobby especially if you have to purchase sterling cheques as well as the cost of the cert as I do- if no VISA is available. I have made a practise of buying the certs (BMDs) for my direct lines back ie 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 greatgrandparents etc. For all the others I have only purchased certs where I have a problem of similar names or some mystery that needs to be solved. Back to 1837 I have recorded the name, qtr, year, district of registration and reference number of anyone I have included in my tree & could quickly purchase the cert if need be! I have backed up my info with censii, baptisms, burials etc. Pre 1837 I have ordered the films from the LDS (if available) and have photocopied baptisms , marriage entries and burial entries so essentially getting "certs" from the Parish register. I have done the same with minor branches post 1837 if the film is available. Each person has an individual hard copy file (because I have had a computer crash early on and had to start again!) I am now in the process of trying to gain one "extra gem" for each person such as a military record, witness statement, inquest report, postcards or letters written by the individual (great source of info if the family passed them onto a Museum), court appearances & charges, bastardy or resettlement reports etc. Have to tell you that I have been 'collecting' for about 15 years and it so much easier now that it's easily available online! You would be wise to look for James's death but remember many circumstances might have led to Elizabeth being alone at that time. James might have been in the Military, in prison, or away working elsewhere. DON"T be surprised at anything you find - after all they were human!! Good Luck Marlene ----- Original Message ----- From: <genukilists@tinfoil.cotse.net> To: "Marlene Shipman" <eng-warks-birmingham@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [B'ham] Rice: Robert b. 1828 Ireland m. Birmingham 1850d.1860-1? >> You might have to resort to purchasing the birth cert of Esther and >> searching for the baptisms of the other daughters for a wee gem or two! > > I have already ordered this as she is the only child born after 1837. > >> Certainly you should follow >> through all siblings from your parents back to your grandparents and >> great >> grandparents because each generation will add something to your know >> ledge. > > > Have you bought bmd certificates for all siblings? That will be very > expensive! > >> Secondly the occupation for Elizabeth in the Workhouse might have related >> to >> previous work, or she might have been living in the Workhouse but found >> casual employment outside or she might have been a servant at the >> Workhouse >> for some reason. >> Remember the Census records where the individual was on that particular >> night and she might have just "popped in" for a day or week or a >> fortnight! >> Perhaps James & Elizabeth were separated at that time if he was away >> working? Perhaps he hadn't earned enough money to support her? > > I am confused that she is listed as married. If James was alive I > would have thought he would have been there with her. I think I'll > have to look for his death in the GRO index as I cannot find him in > the 1861 census. > > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just had this from Birmingham RO re. Robert: > The entry in December Quarter 1862 was checked but as it is not the one > required, it was not detailed (the occupation differed, the age differed by > 5 years and no mention is made of Ireland). So it's not our man.

> Just had this from Birmingham RO re. Robert: If he had died in Ireland, I assume he would not be in the GRO indices? What BMD system does Ireland have? Could I look for his death there? Thanks, Stephen.