Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month old child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. 1851 Head: CHINN, William Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 ***************************** EZEKIEL CHINN Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England Parents: Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family Mother: HARRIET Source Information: Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 ******************************************************** Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 ************************************************************* Peter C. Turner pcharlestur@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com

Hi Peter That's a big assumption to make on transcripted records. In 1861 Ezekiel is noted as grandson of William & Elizabeth, so it's not their son (though you'd worked that out already!) It may well be the case that it's Harriet's son (though she's not with her parents in 1861), and it may well be that: 1. Harriet didn't know the father 2. There is a completely different William CHINN (a cousin, perhaps?) 3. The IGI reference could refer to a different family AND 4. If it was "incest", do you think the Church would acknowledge it? If you have the birth certificate, who is given as the father (although this is also open to question in my experience)? However, as I understand it, if the mother wasn't married, she could only give the name of the father if he was present. I'm sure incest was just as "common" as it is today, but they wouldn't be so eager to demonstrate it as to announce it in Church... but I could be wrong, of course. Regards Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-warks-birmingham-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-warks- > birmingham-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of peter turner > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:49 PM > To: ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM@rootsweb.com > Subject: [B'ham] ?Incest? > > Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month > old > child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. > > > 1851 > Head: CHINN, William > Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace > William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR > Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR > Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR > Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR > Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham > Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire > PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 > > > ***************************** > EZEKIEL CHINN > Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England > > Parents: > Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family > Mother: HARRIET > > Source Information: > Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 > ******************************************************** > Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 > ************************************************************* > > > > > Peter C. Turner > pcharlestur@hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel > http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM- > admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-WARKS- > BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Peter I have a similar situation in my family although the lady in question actually had tree illegitimate children, and no father is listed on their birth certificates. On one census the children are listed as her parents children but they are to old to have children this young. On the 1881 census she even lied about her name as she was still unmarried. She married late in life at about 40 and then had another child. All her other children named their grandfather as father on their marriage certificates.As someone has already said because we can't speak to them we will never know the truth. Regards Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "peter turner" <pcharlestur@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:49 PM Subject: [B'ham] ?Incest? > Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month > old > child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. > > > 1851 > Head: CHINN, William > Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace > William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR > Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR > Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR > Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR > Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham > Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire > PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 > > > ***************************** > EZEKIEL CHINN > Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England > > Parents: > Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family > Mother: HARRIET > > Source Information: > Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 > ******************************************************** > Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 > ************************************************************* > > > > > Peter C. Turner > pcharlestur@hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel > http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>From what I have been told, unmarried mothers were not allowed to put the name of the father on the birth certificate, I was also told that husbands who died before their child was born was also omitted from the certificate ?....I am not sure if it still applies in both cases......I have a uncle who's father died before he was born (a few weeks before) in 1933, his fathers name does not appear on his certificate.....John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Partridge" <wendy.partridge@ntlworld.com> To: <eng-warks-birmingham@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [B'ham] ?Incest? > Hello Peter > > I have a similar situation in my family although the lady in question > actually had tree illegitimate children, and no father is listed on their > birth certificates. On one census the children are listed as her parents > children but they are to old to have children this young. On the 1881 > census > she even lied about her name as she was still unmarried. She married late > in > life at about 40 and then had another child. All her other children named > their grandfather as father on their marriage certificates.As someone has > already said because we can't speak to them we will never know the truth. > Regards > > Wendy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter turner" <pcharlestur@hotmail.com> > To: <ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:49 PM > Subject: [B'ham] ?Incest? > > >> Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month >> old >> child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. >> >> >> 1851 >> Head: CHINN, William >> Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace >> William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR >> Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR >> Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR >> Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR >> Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham >> Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire >> PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 >> >> >> ***************************** >> EZEKIEL CHINN >> Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England >> >> Parents: >> Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family >> Mother: HARRIET >> >> Source Information: >> Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 >> ******************************************************** >> Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 >> ************************************************************* >> >> >> >> >> Peter C. Turner >> pcharlestur@hotmail.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel >> http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com >> >> _____________________________________________ >> Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: >> http://www.bham.de/ >> >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: >> ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Wendy Partridge wrote: > .As someone has > already said because we can't speak to them we will never know the truth. > Regards > > Wendy > Funny you saying that ,have you ever tried to speak to them , I may be a physic or something , But I always remember visiting a rellies grave , and jotting details down, I suddenly spouted out that you thought we,d forgotten you, then I heard a voice say "you are not mine", I spun round ,but there was nobody else there !, a bit shook up I went home, And for a few weeks after I pursued this person everywhere, till I found the answer ,my rellie was buried in another cemetary. So it pays to be very certain that you have the right person and grave. I have had several voices bits in the past, the most serious was when i was dive bommbing the exit off moterway from outside lane, when a voice told me "brakes" ,in fact i did not touch them till I was in inside lane and slowing that I put them on ,guess what no brakes , I dived into hard shoulder vowing ,never to ignore voices again. gary hodge > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "peter turner" <pcharlestur@hotmail.com> > To: <ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:49 PM > Subject: [B'ham] ?Incest? > > > >> Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month >> old >> child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. >> >> >> 1851 >> Head: CHINN, William >> Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace >> William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR >> Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR >> Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR >> Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR >> Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham >> Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire >> PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 >> >> >> ***************************** >> EZEKIEL CHINN >> Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England >> >> Parents: >> Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family >> Mother: HARRIET >> >> Source Information: >> Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 >> ******************************************************** >> Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 >> ************************************************************* >> >> >> >> >> Peter C. Turner >> pcharlestur@hotmail.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel >> http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com >> >> _____________________________________________ >> Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: >> http://www.bham.de/ >> >> Any problems, please contact the List Admin: >> ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Peter: Almost certainly Ezekiel was an illegitimate son of Harriett. When poor Harriett went to have the child christened she could either admit to being an unmarried mother, or give a fictitious father. What more natural than to give her own father's name? This is exactly what happened with my own grandmother, who was illegitimate. In a large parish in Birmingham nobody would know any better. Quite different in a rural parish, of course, when everyone would know what was going on. Best wishes Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "peter turner" <pcharlestur@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 11:49 PM Subject: [B'ham] ?Incest? > Let me try again - this is not a question of geography! Note the 8 month > old > child in the census return; then the LDS report of the Baptism. > > > 1851 > Head: CHINN, William > Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace > William CHINN Head M 53 M Gardener Tanworth-WAR > Elizabeth CHINN Wife M 52 F --- Broom-WAR > Harriett CHINN Daur U 26 F Laundress Birmingham-WAR > Ezekiel CHINN Son - 8m M --- Birm-WAR > Address: Tennant St 21 Court 1 House, Birmingham > Census Place: Birmingham ---, Warwickshire > PRO Reference: HO/107/2052/215-47 > > > ***************************** > EZEKIEL CHINN > Christening: 05 JAN 1851 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England > > Parents: > Father: WILLIAM CHINN Family > Mother: HARRIET > > Source Information: > Batch No.: Dates: C041171 1829 - 1853 > ******************************************************** > Registered as Wm Ezekiel Chinn, Sep 1850, Bham XVI 408 > ************************************************************* > > > > > Peter C. Turner > pcharlestur@hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > It's Hotmail's 10th Birthday! Come and play Pass the Parcel > http://www.msnpasstheparcel.com > > _____________________________________________ > Tracing Ancestors in Birmingham: > http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >