Hello, I have been banging my head against a brick wall for a year; can anyone help me? William Gumbley married Charlotte Morris in 1860. According to the marriage records, William's father was Edwin Gumbley, a shoemaker, and his mother was Charlotte Gumbley. This gets confusing because there are now two Charlotte Gumbleys: William's mother and William's wife. I have not been able to find any trace of Edwin Gumbley in the censuses or BMD records. I wonder if he ever existed? It would appear that Charlotte Gumbley (William's mother) married Charles Styles in 1852. In the 1861 census, William and Charlotte (William's wife) are listed as living with William's half-brother Richard Styles. So far, so good. I assumed that Charlotte Gumbley married Edwin Gumbley and had a son, William, born circa 1840; that Edwin died and that Charlotte later remarried Charles Styles. The problem is that the marriage records state that Charlotte (William's mother) was a spinster at the time of her marriage to Charles Styles. So either way one of the marriage records must be wrong: Is Charlotte's (the mother's) marriage to Charles Styles incorrect that she was a spinster: did she lie to avoid bigamy or was this an innocent mistake by whoever recorded it? Or is William's marriage to Charlotte (his wife) wrong to record Edwin Gumbley as his father? Was William the illegitimate son of Charlotte? Was the name Edwin Gumbley invented by William at the time of his marriage? Or was it invented by Charlotte; was William bought up believing his lost father was Edwin? William should have been born c1840. There is no birth certificate for him that I can find. Freebmd lists two William Gumbleys born 1840 but Birmingham register office say this is a mistake and there is only one. The birth that was registered was to different parents and that William and his family can be found in the censuses, so I know they are different people. Is there any way I can find William's birth? Is there any way I can find William's father? Perhaps the earlier censuses would help but I can't even find Charlotte Gumbley (the mother) in these. Help! Thanks, Stephen.

Kia Ora Stephen There is a marriage between a CHARLOTTE GUMBLEY & an EDWARD MORRIS Dec Q 1854 Birmingham 6d/221. This is confirmed by the IGI as 28 November 1854 at St Phillips B'ham. This is an extracted record so fairly safe as compared to Member's Submissions. Edward & Edwin are of ten interchangeable. Do you have this cert? Check ages and occupations and witnesses! This couple appear to have baptised the following children William Morris birth 24 Sept 1858 bap 2 May 1859. William's birth may have been registered Dec Q 1858 B'ham John Morris bap 10 Sept 1863 St Thomas B'ham Charlotte Morris bap 16 Jan 1865 aged 1 year. Have you found this family in 1861? 1871? I don't have access to the census but someone else may be able to help. I can find no record of an 1860 marriage on Free BMD for William GUMBLEY and Charlotte MORRIS but there is an extracted entry on the IGI 3 July 1860 at St Peter Dale End . Presumably you have the certificate for this marriage? Again check ages and occupations and particularly witnesses. Giving the ages of the couple and the occupations always helps others to double check aganst censuses This couple appear to have baptised the following children as GUMLEY Eliza 4 Nov 1860 Bordesley Henry 4 Nov 1860 Bordesley. As both were baptised on the same day "shortly" after the parents marriage you would need to seek birth certs for any certainty. Have you found this family in 1861? 1871? However I think you need to follow the family BACKWARDS from 1911 to 1901 to 1891 and 1881 as you appear to be jumping a generation or so I suspect or getting siblings muddled with wives! It is vital that you follow every individual member of the family to establish naming patterns, occupations, localities. So starting with yourself track your 2 parents & siblings, then your 4 grandparents & their siblings, then your 8 great grandparents and their siblings etc. It is quite common for sisters to marry brothers of the same surname or a sister & brother to marry a brother & sister of the same surname and if they happen to have similar forenames (like Charlotte) you can end up with the headache you have had for a while! Good luck Marlene New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen" <familytree@tinfoil.cotse.net> To: <eng-warks-birmingham@rootsweb.com> Cc: <matt@gumbley.me.uk> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:15 PM Subject: [B'ham] Brickwall: William Gumbley, son of Charlotte, born c1840? > Hello, > > I have been banging my head against a brick wall for a year; can > anyone help me? > > William Gumbley married Charlotte Morris in 1860. According to the > marriage records, William's father was Edwin Gumbley, a shoemaker, and > his mother was Charlotte Gumbley. > > This gets confusing because there are now two Charlotte Gumbleys: > William's mother and William's wife. > > I have not been able to find any trace of Edwin Gumbley in the > censuses or BMD records. I wonder if he ever existed? > > It would appear that Charlotte Gumbley (William's mother) married > Charles Styles in 1852. In the 1861 census, William and Charlotte > (William's wife) are listed as living with William's half-brother > Richard Styles. So far, so good. > > I assumed that Charlotte Gumbley married Edwin Gumbley and had a son, > William, born circa 1840; that Edwin died and that Charlotte later > remarried Charles Styles. > > The problem is that the marriage records state that Charlotte > (William's mother) was a spinster at the time of her marriage to > Charles Styles. > > So either way one of the marriage records must be wrong: > > Is Charlotte's (the mother's) marriage to Charles Styles incorrect > that she was a spinster: did she lie to avoid bigamy or was this an > innocent mistake by whoever recorded it? > > Or is William's marriage to Charlotte (his wife) wrong to record Edwin > Gumbley as his father? Was William the illegitimate son of Charlotte? > Was the name Edwin Gumbley invented by William at the time of his > marriage? Or was it invented by Charlotte; was William bought up > believing his lost father was Edwin? > > William should have been born c1840. There is no birth certificate for > him that I can find. Freebmd lists two William Gumbleys born 1840 but > Birmingham register office say this is a mistake and there is only > one. The birth that was registered was to different parents and that > William and his family can be found in the censuses, so I know they are > different people. > > Is there any way I can find William's birth? > > Is there any way I can find William's father? > > Perhaps the earlier censuses would help but I can't even find > Charlotte Gumbley (the mother) in these. > > Help! > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Research in Birmingham: http://www.bham.de/ > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Friday, June 12, 2009, 2:28:46 PM, you wrote: > There is a marriage between a CHARLOTTE GUMBLEY & an EDWARD MORRIS Dec Q > 1854 Birmingham 6d/221. This is confirmed by the IGI as 28 November 1854 at > St Phillips B'ham. But my Charlotte Gumbley married Charles Styles in 1852. It would appear this is a third Charlotte Gumbley. > I can find no record of an 1860 marriage on Free BMD for William GUMBLEY and > Charlotte MORRIS but there is an extracted entry on the IGI 3 July 1860 at > St Peter Dale End. You mentioned working back from the present day. That's exactly how I found William and Charlotte (his wife) to begin with. Going back one more generation is where I come undone with Charlotte Gumbley (his mother).

Hi Stephen How did you get his mothers name from marriage records ? Mike > > William Gumbley married Charlotte Morris in 1860. According to the > marriage records, William's father was Edwin Gumbley, a shoemaker, and > his mother was Charlotte Gumbley. > > >

Hello Mike, Monday, June 15, 2009, 9:34:00 AM, you wrote: > How did you get his mothers name from marriage records ? Sorry, I didn't. The marriage records give his father. I deduced his mother from the censuses: he was living with Richard Styles stepbrother and I found Charlotte Gumbley had married Charles Styles.

Hi Steven Do you have the 1860 marriage certificate for St Peter's Dale end. If so what information does it give Mike

Hi Stephen A few thoughts The 1860 marriage is of a William GUMBLEY and Charlotte MORRIS , who does it give as her father. Who is the Charlotte GUMBLEY who marries Edward MORRIS in St Phillips in 1854 and who does she give as her father ? The 1852 marriage to Charles STYLES in St Martins of Charlotte GUMBLEY gives her age 37 and William GUMBLEY jeweller as father. witnesses Daniel & Elizabeth GUMBLEY(nee Hill they married 1849 in Aston) This family in the 1841 census is indexed on Ancestry as GRIMLEY and as I transcribe it GUMLEY In the 1861 census Edward Morris is 42 and Charlotte is 25 a birth date of c.1836 Mike in Droitwich