Many thanks to all who assisted us in our search for the elusive Abraham. Two really good pointers came - Barb Stacey - the Abraham D you identified had the wrong father. But we were really excited at first. Then from Marlene Shipton another sighting but this one was too old and also wrong father. Finally from Graham Dixon (I really thought we had hit the jackpot when it read the name!) So many possibles I am answering that separately. So we are still searching. We think he could possibly be Irish. The only reason we say this is that he did not appear on the radar until 1871 and he married into an Irish family - slim clues I know but when you are clutching at straws! My mother used to say "your granddads family came from Ireland" she also used to say they were gypsies and used to sell pegs. I thought she meant my fathers side of the family but in researching my fathers side revealed only true blue brits. So I think now she meant her side of the family Anyway thanks everyone and if you do come across a Abraham Dixon in your searches please keep us in mind. Jan Ward

> Wendy, I have seen your message many times, but I am not sure what format they should take. Could you elaborate or refer the list to a correct posting. TIA Reg Cold Canada (9C) > Hilton - > > > Looking for descendants of... > > > > Ann DEVEY bn c1863 Birmingham. England. dau. of George DEVEY and Ann Maria > > CHAMBERS. m Arthur William TAYLOR 1883 New Zealand. Arthur bn 1857 Long > > Sutton, Lincoln. England. is son of Thomas TAYLOR and Mary MASON > > For a while now, I've been running taglines encouraging listers to put > post-ems on FreeBMD against entries of which they have knowledge. You could > do such, and I see haven't yet done so, with Ann DEVEY's birth. > > You could also post your interests on the Warwickshire surname interest > list - http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/hughw/warwick.html > > Wendy > B'ham List Admin > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other > researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Posted at the request of a person from another list: "A friend of mine sent me this message and I wondered if someone might like to post it to the Birmingham List: << I was rummaging in a 'Retro' shop the other day and came across the most wonderful Retirement Certificate. It was £48 or I would have been tempted to buy it and try and find the family, but is there somewhere that one can advertise such a find? I was wondering if you knew an internet chat site or whatever where one could post the info. If you do - here are the details (ie could you please do the 'positing' of the information please!). Retirement Certificate of Ernest W. Saunders from Cobden Hotel, Birmingham, 1928. It was a large certificate in an oak frame showing a photo of Mr Saunders, coloured caligraphy, a lovely inscription and it had no less than 49 signatures on it! It was priced at £48 and I found it at Retro Boutique, Hyde Park Corner, Leeds, Tel: 0113-278 2653 - hanging on the wall on the first floor. The shop is open 7 days a week.>> I don't know if it is still there, nor do I have any interest in the shop etc. It just seemed a shame not to try and do something about it. Anne

Ros Gooden wrote: > I thought it might be well to resend my research interests. > ARNOLD, SEAGER, DOCKER AND ACOTT > > The first and last of these were jewelleers, Seagar was a minister. > > Many thanks, Ros of SA. > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Hi Gordon > I have ACOTT in kent, do yours come from there. Gary hodge

yes, a 16 year old could be a witness - there was no age qualification - you just had to be here and be able to write your name or make your mark. The marriage certificate should show the father's occupation and whether he is deceased - but you can't rely on its accuracy. All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. about father's name, occupation and state of health! Anne On 18 May 2008, at 07:50, Diane Lowery wrote: > Hi Listers, > > Would someone please tell me if a 16 year-old brother could be a > witness to the marriage of his sister in 1899. I have what I > believe is the death of an Edward FLOWER in 1898, whereas his > daughter Ada married a year after this. There was a son, also > Edward, who was born in early 1882. I realise that to be 100% sure > I would probably need to get the marriage cert. > Would the certificate show that the father was deceased at the time > of the wedding? It's a bit confusing because the two Edwards were > both plasterers. > > Diane (Melbourne).

Looking for descendants of... Ann DEVEY bn c1863 Birmingham. England. dau. of George DEVEY and Ann Maria CHAMBERS. m Arthur William TAYLOR 1883 New Zealand. Arthur bn 1857 Long Sutton, Lincoln. England. is son of Thomas TAYLOR and Mary MASON 7 known children... Florence, Ida, Harold, Arthur, Laurel, Alex and Frank... Hilton Doidge New Zealand [email protected] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 380 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

I thought it might be well to resend my research interests. ARNOLD, SEAGER, DOCKER AND ACOTT The first and last of these were jewelleers, Seagar was a minister. Many thanks, Ros of SA.

Just resending my research interests in Birmingham SPENCER; ONIONS; BROOKES; HICKS Many thanks, Jan

Hi Everyone I'm new to this list, looking for anyone that maybe researching LUCAS and EADES. I have Thomas LUCAS b abt 1852 and Karen Happuch EADES married 1873 Saint Marks Birmingham, Warwick Eng. Thomas Parents were Thomas LUCAS b abt 1819 and Caroline Amelia HARTLEY they married 1841 Aston,Juxta,Birmingham. They had 10 children, 3 came to Australia that I know of. Cheers Lorraine Key Snowy Mountains NSW Australia

Baptist hold a dedication of parents instead of a baptism of an infant. at some stage after birth. Baptisms are at the initiative of the individual for themselves., not by their parents on their behalf So the age can vary markedly, although normally not younger than 10-12. This is the reason why if is termed believers' Baptism, not necessarily adult baptism. It all gets a bit complicated in the early periods before civil registration of births. Ros of SA

Hi Ros & Keith Look at the Spaldwick Hunts Baptisms for Farey circa 1800 on the IGI. These are Dates of Birth in the Spaldwick Baptist Register not Baptism dates! Something to watch out for! Some of these folk had applications for Baptisms turned down later in life as their testimony was not considered good enough - and had to be done again!!. Cheers Marlene Ros Gooden wrote: > Keith I am interested in your comments about the second baptism of you relative. It would not have been a Baptist registration as Baptists would bnot have been involved in a baptism of some one so young. > These records preceed the civil registrations, and the only registrations that were recognised were those in the parish records of the Church of England. > > Ros of SA. > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Keith I am interested in your comments about the second baptism of you relative. It would not have been a Baptist registration as Baptists would bnot have been involved in a baptism of some one so young. These records preceed the civil registrations, and the only registrations that were recognised were those in the parish records of the Church of England. Ros of SA.

If I may add a comment on this subject (so far dominated by Listers from the Antipodes, I note!), the brother of my gt. grandfather was baptised in the parish church at Norton, nr. Evesham on 30 March 1828 and again in the same church on Christmas Day 1834. His was the only baptism recorded on the latter date, so this was not some village ceremonial associated with Christmas, and my gt.grandfather, his elder brother, was not baptised a second time on the same occasion. Initially I assumed that this was a second child given the same name, the first one having died, but all subsequent census entries from 1841 to 1901, and other information I have, record his age based on an 1828 birth date. A sister of my grandfather was a Baptist, and her funeral was conducted in the same parish church in 1951 under the Burial Laws Amendment Act, but I have so far found no other family connection with the Baptists, and in any case, if there was one, surely the second baptism would not have taken place in an Anglican church also? Keith Houghton [Sydney, Oz] [email protected] wrote: > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] (Norma Bethune) > 2. Re: baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] (Graham Cole) > 3. Re: baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] (Ros Gooden) > 4. MORRIS- DELAHAY FAMILIES (Carla Mikkelson) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [B'ham] baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] > From: > Norma Bethune <[email protected]> > Date: > Tue, 13 May 2008 00:53:23 +1200 > To: > [email protected], Robert Riden <[email protected]> > > To: > [email protected], Robert Riden <[email protected]> > > > Hello Graham, > Although not non-conformist, my grandfather's sister, Rachel BROWN was > christened twice. > > In the Parish Register of St Peter's, Liverpool, I found: > -1871: baptised 1 Oct, born 17 April; Rachel, daughter of William Jackson > and Mary BROWN, waterman, Birkenhead > > Not long after, a friend found another baptism for the same child at > St Anne's, Birkenhead: > -1871: Rachel, daughter of William Jackson and Mary BROWN, flatman, > Flamank Street, Birkenhead, bapt 27 Aug > > I agree that it's unusual, but would anyone know if there was some > reason why this would happen in Anglican churches? > > TIA, > Norma in Mosgiel nr Dunedin, New Zealand > > robert riden wrote: >> Hi Graham >> It would be very unusual for people to be baptised twice. If you were >> N/C you would have your children "Christened" unless a member of a >> Baptist church (or similar) when the child would be dedicated and then >> when old enough to make his/her own commitment would be baptised as an >> adult believer. Christening would often be referred to as baptism but >> we baptists would want to differentiate. >> Rob > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [B'ham] baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] > From: > "Graham Cole" <[email protected]> > Date: > Mon, 12 May 2008 16:31:27 +0100 > To: > <[email protected]> > > To: > <[email protected]> > > > Hi Norma. > > I'd explained the Non-conformist / Anglican Baptism to myself as they were > possibly using the Anglican baptism as a kind of "Insurance Policy" for > parish relief. However, if I've got the correct person, then the N/C > Baptism would have been a child too, which Rob said was unlikely as they are > baptised as adults. So it's back to the drawing board for me. > > As to your problem. Liverpool and Birkenhead were quite a distance apart > before the ferry and tunnel. Perhaps they had family on both sides who > wanted to witness the Christening and they thought "What the heck, lets just > have two." Just an idea. > > Cheers, > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:eng-warks- > > Hello Graham, > Although not non-conformist, my grandfather's sister, Rachel BROWN was > christened twice. > > In the Parish Register of St Peter's, Liverpool, I found: > -1871: baptised 1 Oct, born 17 April; Rachel, daughter of William Jackson > and Mary BROWN, waterman, Birkenhead > > Not long after, a friend found another baptism for the same child at St > Anne's, Birkenhead: > -1871: Rachel, daughter of William Jackson and Mary BROWN, flatman, > Flamank Street, Birkenhead, bapt 27 Aug > > I agree that it's unusual, but would anyone know if there was some > reason why this would happen in Anglican churches? > > TIA, > Norma in Mosgiel nr Dunedin, New Zealand > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [B'ham] baptised twice [was non-conformist baptism] > From: > "Ros Gooden" <[email protected]> > Date: > Tue, 13 May 2008 07:41:20 +0930 > To: > <[email protected]> > > To: > <[email protected]> > > > Dear Graeme, > As I understand it prior to 1 July 1837, records of births, christenings (infant baptism), marriages and deaths were in the hands of clergymen of the Church of England. However Baptist births were not automatically recorded in parish records., because they conscientiously disfavoured infant baptism. A court of law often would recognised an extract from the parish records as a valid legal document, whereas Nonconformist records were usually not recognised. So you have some families in order to protect their rights conforming. > Early legislation in 1695 and 1700 required Dissenter's births to be reported to the parish either to be added to the register or entered into a separate book. But this may not have been done and not all churches kept their own records. More likely of adult/believers baptism than of births. > > Good hunting. > Ros from South Australia. > > You may find Geoffrey Breed's book "My ancestors were Baptists" a help. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > [B'ham] MORRIS- DELAHAY FAMILIES > From: > Carla Mikkelson <[email protected]> > Date: > Tue, 13 May 2008 07:27:51 +1000 (EST) > To: > [email protected] > > To: > [email protected] > > > Hi Listers > > I am researching the above families, well MORRIS in particular. > My 2 times great grandmother was Mary Ann MORRIS born > 1851 in Fenny Stratford, Bucks, her sister Adeline Eliza MORRIS > born 1864 in Bow Brickhill in Bucks married Alfred William DELAHAY > in 1891 in Eversholt in Bucks. Alfred was born in 1866 in Nottingham. > They appear to have lived in Birmingham most of their married lives. > in 1893 they were at "Goldthorne" in Drayton Road in Kings Heath and > by 1898 they were at "Cloveleys" 41 Addison Road Kings Heath or Kings > Norton? They had two children that I am aware of Alfred Francis Morris > DELAHAY born 1893, no descendants for him have been found and > Robert Cecil DELAHAY born 1898. He died in WW1 in 1917 in France > and is listed on the Commonwealth Grave Site. > > I am hoping there may be some family around that can give me some details > about this family line. My 2x GG Mary Ann MORRIS lived with a Frederick > COOK and came to New Zealand along with her son Francis George Albert > "Bertie" MORRIS, other siblings with Mary Ann and Adeline Eliza were > Elizabeth born 1846 in Woburn, Beds, Sarah Ann born 1848 in Woburn Beds > Emily born 1849 in Woburn beds (none of them married), Arthur John born 1854 > in Bow Brickhill Bucks, (He went to Australia), Alfred Edward born 1855 born > in Bow Brickhill (he went to America), Albert Francis born 1858 in Bow Brickhill > (he went to Canada), Ellen born 1859 in Bow Brickhill she married Thomas LAMB > and came to New Zealand, Mark Henry born 1862 in Bow Brickhill and Alice Maude > MORRIS born 1866 in Wavendon in Bucks, she married William Thomas EDWARDS > and lived in Reigate, Surrey. Their parents were Francis MORRIS and Eliza WARREN. > > I have found descendants of a lot of the siblings but Adeline Elizas descendants if any > remain a mystery. Her husband Alfred William DELAHAY's parents were Alfred born > 1843 in Birmingham and his mother was Sarah Ann TOMDROW born 1845 > in Nottingham he had siblings Edith Eleanor, Jessie Tomdrow, Gertrude Evelyn, > Bertha Mabel and Gwendoline Marie. > > Anyone who could help and suggest any avenues to find descendants would be > gratefully received. > > One relative says his mother mentioned that Adeline Elizas husband Alfred William > DELAHAY was an organist at Cadburys Model Village? > > Thank you > > Carla from > Auckland > New Zealand > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To contact the ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. >

Hi list. Is there anyone on the list connected to Sarah Hutton mn Reynolds and William Henry Woolley who were married in 1918 in Aston. Birmingham. TIA Margaret in Australia.

Hi List, Am looking to see if there still might be a house at :- 1 Back 17 Jenner's Row. Birmingham. This address is on a wedding certificate in 1918. TIA Margaret Boots in Australia.

Ros says they would not baptise anyone so young in the Baptist Church. What sort of agewould they have to be? I have relatives that were baptised in the Baptist Church from three weeks old some 6 weeks, some three months and one a year old. All baptised between 1821-1830 I found all the baptisma on www.bmdregisters.co.uk Jean

Take a look at this link to the bbc message board about double baptisms.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbhistory/F2233810?thread=5204302 __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

Hi is any one able to look up the following marriage for me please? PANTER - Sarah Ann & MYOTT/MYATT George 17th October 1864 St George Birmingham Thanks Helena The Bladon web site www.bladon.me.uk

Hi Margaret in the 1902-11 Old Ordnance Survey Map of Central Birmingham there is a Jennens Row. It's not there now as far as I can make out on Google Maps it was on what is now Aston University in Birmingham near to the Corporation St side of the campus. I can scan a clip of the map and email off list if that helps and these maps are also available quite cheaply from http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/ I would say from the address that they were probably living in a back to back house, ie Court 1 back of House 17. You can see an example of these at the National Trust site in Birmingham at http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w- findaplace/w-birmingham_backtobacks/ Best wishes Dave On 15 May 2008, at 05:07, [email protected] wrote: Hi List, Am looking to see if there still might be a house at :- 1 Back 17 Jenner's Row. Birmingham. This address is on a wedding certificate in 1918. TIA Margaret Boots in Australia. _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. Any problems, please contact the List Admin: ENG-WARKS-BIRMINGHAM- [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-WARKS- [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Does anyone have any connections to this marriage between Frederick Ward and Kathleen Stanton in 1909 at Aston? I have one other possibly connected name - that of Constance Ivy Stanton born 1904 who was living with couple in 1930 at 4 Mansfield Rd Lozelles. Happy to receive personal messages with any clues!! Thanks Marlene