my great aunts Sarah Jane was always known as Ginny and Mary Ann as Polly. Cheers Eunice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Peat" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [B'ham] Sally or Sarah Morris b. circa 1818 > Sally can be a nickname for Sarah. > >

Re "Dale End, B,ham" info for a prior posted question, Dale End is very Central B,ham City centre, runs from High St/Bull St corner to Coleshill St, Modern B,ham A-Z reference page 5 grid F 3 & 4 Hoping this assists your searches,,,, John Y

On 26 Jun, Stephen <[email protected]> wrote: > The census says she was deaf and dumb, yet in the previous censuses > she was not listed as such. Does this mean that this lady is unlikely > to be the one I seek? No - she may have developed deafness as a result of noise at work - there were no laws regarding noise levels in the Victorian era, and the dumbness may be a result of being unable to hear questions directed at her. Or it could be an error by the enumerator... -- Chris Pampling researching: BARRATT, DANCER, FELLOWS, GOODES, HOLDING, ROBINSON, TUCKLEY, WHEWAY, MAHER all in and around Birmingham/Smethwick, 1850 to present day PAMPLING Cambridgeshire - Sheffield, 1800 to present VARNDELL Wokingham - Birmingham, 1800 to present

Hi Stephen Sally is a nickname for Sarah. My 2 x gt.grandmother was christened Sarah but always known as Sally. Judy > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:14:39 +0100> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: [B'ham] Sally or Sarah Morris b. circa 1818> > Hello,> > I've been tracing Richard Morris, a silversmith, who had a daughter> called Charlotte. For some bizarre reason, Richard's wife (Charlotte's> mother) is "Sally" on the certificates and yet "Sarah" on the> censuses. Can anyone think why this might be?> > Richard passed away after the 1871 census so I am trying to find> Sally/Sarah in 1881, 1891, and possibly 1901. Sally would have been> born circa 1818.> > Freebmd list a death in 1899. I was about to order the certificate but> then I saw that Ancestry lists a patient in the workhouse in 1891. If> the certificate is for an S Morris who passed away in the workhouse,> how can I be sure she is my S Morris? I was hoping she might have been> with family, which would have been a useful cross-check.> > The census says she was deaf and dumb, yet in the previous censuses> she was not listed as such. Does this mean that this lady is unlikely> to be the one I seek?> > Thank you,> Stephen.> > _____________________________________________> _____________________________________________> > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem.> > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected]> -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/

Hello Stephen, "Sally" was often a nickname for "Sarah", although it is strange that she is listed on certificates as "Sally" rather than the more formal "Sarah". It is also possible that she was actually christened Sally and the census taker decided that as this was a nickname she would list her as Sarah on the census form. Regards, Jean 2008/6/26 Stephen <[email protected]>: > Hello, > > I've been tracing Richard Morris, a silversmith, who had a daughter > called Charlotte. For some bizarre reason, Richard's wife (Charlotte's > mother) is "Sally" on the certificates and yet "Sarah" on the > censuses. Can anyone think why this might be? > > Richard passed away after the 1871 census so I am trying to find > Sally/Sarah in 1881, 1891, and possibly 1901. Sally would have been > born circa 1818. > > Freebmd list a death in 1899. I was about to order the certificate but > then I saw that Ancestry lists a patient in the workhouse in 1891. If > the certificate is for an S Morris who passed away in the workhouse, > how can I be sure she is my S Morris? I was hoping she might have been > with family, which would have been a useful cross-check. > > The census says she was deaf and dumb, yet in the previous censuses > she was not listed as such. Does this mean that this lady is unlikely > to be the one I seek? > > Thank you, > Stephen. > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on > www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will > then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Jean Collen

Here's another example for you - My ancestor's marriage certificate had the bride's father with a completely different name from hers, back in 1842. I spent months investigating all of the possibilities until I finally discovered that the bride at the church immediately after mine had the same father's name (and numerically sequential certificates). They had accidentally copied one onto the other! Always expect the unusual. Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nivard Ovington" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [B'ham] Clarification on Marriage Certificates > Hi Stephen > > Apart from the obvious spelling and transcription mistakes between the > local > registrar and the ONS there are quite a few reasons why someone would give > the wrong information, knowingly or innocently > > Heres a few > > One or other party is illegitimate and does not know the fathers true name > so invents one or uses someone else in the family (I have an example where > the person used his grandparents names as his parents, despite his mother > being at the wedding mind! ) > > One or other party has been brought up believing that a certain person is > their father yet its actually another person > > One or other party is already married and attempts to hide the fact by > giving false information > > One or other party want to marry against their fathers wishes so gives a > false name > > One or other party had been brought up by a man they knew as (say) Ernest > but it was not his given name but one he used (I can think of many people > who do that today) > > The fathers occupation may have been inflated, particularly if one of the > parties father has a lofty position in business or society or the father > had > died while the person was young and they did not know his occupation > > Giving the father as deceased could be very handy to explain his non > appearance at the marriage > > Just a few to be going on with > > Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > > >>> All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. >>> about father's name, occupation and state of health! >> >> Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to >> read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who >> is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in >> your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their >> father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? >> >> Thanks, >> Stephen. > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on > www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will > then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Stephen Apart from the obvious spelling and transcription mistakes between the local registrar and the ONS there are quite a few reasons why someone would give the wrong information, knowingly or innocently Heres a few One or other party is illegitimate and does not know the fathers true name so invents one or uses someone else in the family (I have an example where the person used his grandparents names as his parents, despite his mother being at the wedding mind! ) One or other party has been brought up believing that a certain person is their father yet its actually another person One or other party is already married and attempts to hide the fact by giving false information One or other party want to marry against their fathers wishes so gives a false name One or other party had been brought up by a man they knew as (say) Ernest but it was not his given name but one he used (I can think of many people who do that today) The fathers occupation may have been inflated, particularly if one of the parties father has a lofty position in business or society or the father had died while the person was young and they did not know his occupation Giving the father as deceased could be very handy to explain his non appearance at the marriage Just a few to be going on with Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) >> All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. >> about father's name, occupation and state of health! > > Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to > read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who > is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in > your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their > father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? > > Thanks, > Stephen.

Sally can be a nickname for Sarah. Anne On 26 Jun 2008, at 15:14, Stephen wrote: > Hello, > > I've been tracing Richard Morris, a silversmith, who had a daughter > called Charlotte. For some bizarre reason, Richard's wife (Charlotte's > mother) is "Sally" on the certificates and yet "Sarah" on the > censuses. Can anyone think why this might be?

Stephen, You have to think yourself back into the mindset of previous generations, who did not live in a society where they had lots of paperwork to remind them of facts. If a person's father died or left the family when the person was young, then they might well not know their forename. In previous generations people didn't use other people's forenames - you even read of wives referring to their husband's as Mr So and So. You can also get mistakes in the registration process - perhaps because people were nervous or didn't understand the question, or the registrar heard wrongly. My own grandfather put his own forename, Thomas, on the marriage certificate as his father's name - mind you his father used several combinations of names and even changed his surname for a while - and it comes out in two different versions in his two families - one Sherrington the other Sheridan. So, lots of opportunity for error, quite apart from the times when someone made up a father to avoid admitting they did not know who their father was. I would try looking for Edward as well as Edwin before trying other options. HTH Anne On 26 Jun 2008, at 14:20, Stephen wrote: > Sunday, May 18, 2008, 8:14:20 AM, you wrote: > >> All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong >> info. >> about father's name, occupation and state of health! > > Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to > read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who > is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in > your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their > father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? > > Thanks, > Stephen.

When my g.grandfather registered my grandmother's birth, he got her mother's name completely wrong. I suppose in that instance he may have wetted the baby's head on the way to the registrar! Margaret On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Stephen <[email protected]> wrote: > Sunday, May 18, 2008, 8:14:20 AM, you wrote: > > > All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. > > about father's name, occupation and state of health! > > Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to > read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who > is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in > your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their > father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? > > Thanks, > Stephen. > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on > www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will > then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello, I've been tracing Richard Morris, a silversmith, who had a daughter called Charlotte. For some bizarre reason, Richard's wife (Charlotte's mother) is "Sally" on the certificates and yet "Sarah" on the censuses. Can anyone think why this might be? Richard passed away after the 1871 census so I am trying to find Sally/Sarah in 1881, 1891, and possibly 1901. Sally would have been born circa 1818. Freebmd list a death in 1899. I was about to order the certificate but then I saw that Ancestry lists a patient in the workhouse in 1891. If the certificate is for an S Morris who passed away in the workhouse, how can I be sure she is my S Morris? I was hoping she might have been with family, which would have been a useful cross-check. The census says she was deaf and dumb, yet in the previous censuses she was not listed as such. Does this mean that this lady is unlikely to be the one I seek? Thank you, Stephen.

Sunday, May 18, 2008, 8:14:20 AM, you wrote: > All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. > about father's name, occupation and state of health! Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? Thanks, Stephen.

Hello, William Gumbley was married at Saint Peter's church, Dale End, Birmingham. Does this still exist today? Whereabouts is it: is it in the city centre or on the outskirts? The wedding certificate says that William's father was Edwin Gumbley and Edwin was a shoe maker but I have been unable to find any Edwin Gumbleys in any of the censuses! (I have been using ancestry). Gumbley seems to cause problems with the transcriptors who often misread it as Chumbley, Geemley, etc! Please can anyone help find Edwin for me? I haven't found William in 1861, 51, or 41; presumably he will be with Edwin? I haven't found any Edwins in the BMD records either. William was born c. 1840. IIRC Birmingham RO could not find any birth certificate for a William born to an Edwin. I cannot find any marriage or death entry in the GRO indices for Edwin either. Possibly he married before 1837 but his death must be somewhere? The only other alternative is a family story which says the Gumbley family were fishermen from Aberdeenshire, though we don't know who came to Birmingham nor when. Could it be that Edwin was in Scotland? Thanks, Stephen.

My great uncle was raised by his uncle after his father died - his uncle's name appears as his father on his marriage certificate. I don't know if he thought of his uncle as his father or if it was just a mistake. My grandfather registered the birth of my uncle Arnold with the exact same name as another child of his, Arnold! I have 2 uncle Arnolds in my tree although one was known as Eric! Grandad had been to the pub on his way to the register office! So, keep an open mind. Cheers Pam B ex Brum in California Stephen wrote: >Sunday, May 18, 2008, 8:14:20 AM, you wrote: > > > >>All of us have marriage certs which give what proves to be wrong info. >>about father's name, occupation and state of health! >> >> > >Sorry to reply to this so late but I had a backlog of messages to >read! I have just posted a message about a mystery "Edwin Gumbley" who >is named as father on a marriage certificate and I was interested in >your comment above that it could be wrong. How can someone get their >father's name wrong? Could this be why I can't find Edwin? > >Thanks, >Stephen. > >_____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > >Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > >Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

But if, as you say, he wasn't baptised or christened then he won't be on any parish baptism records. Chris Roz Jones <[email protected]> wrote: The birth/baptism of Jack/John and Winifred. I'm not in a financial position to be able to purchase certificates, so i'm hoping there is a way of looking at the baptism records? Roz Roz Jones wrote: Hi, I'm trying to trace the family of my great grandfather, Horace BAILEY. Horace was born in 1898, but his birth was never registered, nor was he christened/baptised.

Anna, did I ever get back to you on this? If not I'll have a look to see if I can find anything. Jane Anna Bell <[email protected]> wrote: Hello Jane I wold like to confirm parent for James Freeman (1808) and for Mary Jane Cotterill??? I found that a Thomas Cotterill was living with family in 1871 census cannot find birth to confirm this is her father. I did contact a family looking for Freemans even though they have the same issue they said it ws not hr same family so I am very confused and do not know if I have the right parents etc Very hard from this side of the world to contact some who can point one in the right direction. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. regards Anna On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:54 PM, JANE DYER wrote: > hi, what details are you particularly looking for? I don't know the family > but I'm always keen to help. > jane > > Anna Bell wrote: > Hello List, > > My gt x 3 grand parents and their family lived in "Ladywood" Birmingham on > the 1871 census. > Their daughter Mary Jane with Husband Aaron BUTLER and their family > emigrated to Aust. ( This couple were my gt gt Grand parents. > > As far as I know the remaining family stayed in England. > > Hoping that some one out there knows of this family and and help me to find > the records please. > > 1 James FREEMAN 1808 - 1878 Old Park Shropshire > > .. +Mary Louisa COTTRELL 1814 - 1902 Coventy Wars > > .................... 2 William Henry FREEMAN 1830 - 1910 Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Hannah 1827 - 1910 > > .................... 2 Joseph Benjamin FREEMAN 1832 - 1874 Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Jane AKERS 1840 - > > .................... 2 Mary Jane FREEMAN 1836 - 1888 Birmingham Wars My > gt Gran died Sydney Aust > > ........................ +Aaron BUTLER 1829 - 1909 > > .................... 2 Anne Mariah FREEMAN 1840 - 1920 Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Thomas POWERS 1838 - Birmingham Wars > > .................... 2 Martha Keziah FREEMAN 1842 -Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Thomas JAMES 1815 - > > .................... 2 Ellen Elizabeth FREEMAN 1844 - 1922 Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +George STREET 1838 - 1920 > > .................... 2 Thomas Cottrell FREEMAN 1846 - Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Emma VOYLE 1847 - > > .................... 2 Esther Mary FREEMAN 1852 - Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Edward YEOMANS 1850 - > > .................... 2 George Henry FREEMAN 1857 - Birmingham Wars > > ........................ +Mary Ann CHESTER 1858 - > > > > Regards Anna > > Brisbane .Aust > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on > www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will > then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________________________ > _____________________________________________ > > Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on > www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will > then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. > > Any problems, please contact the List Admin: > [email protected] > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Roz, you need a Very Kind Person to go to the central library I think J Roz Jones <[email protected]> wrote: The birth/baptism of Jack/John and Winifred. And if it is possible to confirm that the 2 have William Henry as a father. I'm not in a financial position to be able to purchase certificates, so i'm hoping there is a way of looking at the baptism records? Roz --- On Mon, 23/6/08, JANE DYER wrote: From: JANE DYER Subject: Re: [B'ham] look up request BAILEY (baptism's/births etc) To: [email protected] Date: Monday, 23 June, 2008, 5:44 PM Hi Roz, what particular look-up are you interested in? If Horace's birth wasn't registered we won't find him in any BMD list. I can have a look on Ancestry if you like. Jane Roz Jones wrote: Hi, I'm trying to trace the family of my great grandfather, Horace BAILEY. Horace was born in 1898, but his birth was never registered, nor was he christened/baptised. He had one brother, John/Jack (middle initial H) and one sister (Winifred) - and a younger half brother. I think i might have the birth certificate for Jack, but i'm not in a financial position to purchase one for Winifred. Anyway, Their father was William Henry Bailey, a gas fitter. The birth certificate reads: born 11 august 1906 at 14 Mount Pleasant Grove, Camden Street, Birmingham (in all saints district) name John Henry Sex Male Name of father William Henry BAILEY Name of mother Emily BAILEY formerly WHITTINGHAM occupation of father Builders Carter It was Emily who registered the birth on 17 September 1906 Call it gut instinct, but i believe Horace is illegitimate Thanks in advance Roz __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Have you considered adding "postems" to "your" events on www.freebmd.org.uk , giving your contact details? Other researchers will then be able to make contact. Click on the info button to add your postem. Any problems, please contact the List Admin: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Could SKS look up the marriage Records of Samuel Hill born abt 1788 and Catherine Colburneborn abt 1786 (coleburn) at St Martins in Birmingham in 1809 and also a Marriage between John Hill born abt 1828 and Tabitha and Josephborn abt 1820 Hill and Elizabeth they would of been about 1851 =61 i believe they were all born in Bilston however Samuel and Catherine were married in Birmingham and i believe this could be the case for their children as there is only one marriage record for one of their children in Bilston/Wolverhampton records it a long shot i know but any help would be great thankyou Denise Australia

Hi Roz, There is a William, H. Bailey shown on Ancestry in 1901 with a wife Emily but no son Horace. I couldn't find any obvious record for Horace. Name: William H Bailey Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Emily Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England Address: 4 Leopold Terrace Civil Parish: Birmingham Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints County/Island: Warwickshire Country: England Household Members: Name Age Emily Bailey 21 wife (born Coventry) William H Bailey 21 Builders Carter (born Birmingham) Alice Perry 19 boarder Cheers Leanne Roz Jones wrote: Hi, I'm trying to trace the family of my great grandfather, Horace BAILEY. Horace was born in 1898, but his birth was never registered, nor was he christened/baptised. He had one brother, John/Jack (middle initial H) and one sister (Winifred) - and a younger half brother. I think i might have the birth certificate for Jack, but i'm not in a financial position to purchase one for Winifred. Anyway, Their father was William Henry Bailey, a gas fitter. The birth certificate reads: born 11 august 1906 at 14 Mount Pleasant Grove, Camden Street, Birmingham (in all saints district) name John Henry Sex Male Name of father William Henry BAILEY Name of mother Emily BAILEY formerly WHITTINGHAM occupation of father Builders Carter It was Emily who registered the birth on 17 September 1906 Call it gut instinct, but i believe Horace is illegitimate Thanks in advance Roz ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D30290&_t=764581033&_r=email_taglines_Search_OCT07&_m=EXT

I wonder if someone would be kind enough to do a look up for me on the 1860 American census on Ancestry.I have the information from the Index but no subscription to the American site. Many Thanks Val