I think I've read all the responses to the above query, but I didn't see anything about proof of identity.   I have no doubt about the bride and groom's name on my great grandparents' marriage certificate.  William Alexander DOWNING, solicitor, married Ann JAGGS, daughter of William Jaggs, Master Mariner on 10 Sep 1860 at St Giles, Camberwell.  My problem is the groom's father, George Downing, gentleman.  As far as I can tell, the groom's father is Alexander Downing, servant, and his mother is Harriet (birth date 18 August 1823; baptism 17 January 1827, All Souls Church, Marylebone, Middlesex).  On every census, W.A Downing's age and birthplace agree with the baptismal record.  Would a person be asked for proof of his father's name?  Or was William free to give any name he liked? My father told me his grandfather, the above W.A. Downing, was illegitimate, father unknown.  It's my guess Alexander Downing was not W.A.'s father, explaining the gap between birth and baptism.  Nor was his father George Downing, Gentleman as stated on the marriage cert.  Since I haven't been able to find a marriage for Alexander Downing and Harriet, I do not know Harriet's surname.  I found a William Downing living with Harriet Downing, widow, on the 1841 census, but cannot find him on the 1851 census.  From 1861, he appears on every census, right age, right birthplace. Does anyone have any ideas? Mary in Maryland Mostly Surrey/Greater London names: Banks, Downing, Eldridge, Fisher, Jaggs, King, Ohlson, Pillow, Pettengill, Spratt, Webber,  --- On Wed, 9/23/09, eng-surrey-request@rootsweb.com <eng-surrey-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: From: eng-surrey-request@rootsweb.com <eng-surrey-request@rootsweb.com> Subject: ENG-SURREY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 246 To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009, 10:42 AM If you'd like your Digest format changed, please don't hesitate to contact me, Ann, at the Surrey List Admin address: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com To send a reply, or a new message to the List send it to Eng-Surrey@rootsweb.com When replying to an earlier message please change the Subject line to reflect the content, and trim away unnecessary parts of earlier postings.  Always use Plain Text for List Messages - if unsure contact List Admin for help. Today's Topics:    1. Re: Evidence of identity for marriage, re banns (Pam Hillier)    2. Re: Evidence of identity for marriage? (Chew G)    3. Re: Evidence of identity for marriage, re banns (Fionnghal)    4. 50 years between banns and marriage (Penny Parker)    5. Re: 50 years between banns and marriage (Nivard Ovington)    6. Re: 50 years between banns and marriage (Caroline Bradford)    7. Re: 50 years between banns and marriage (Fionnghal) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:22:50 +0930 From: "Pam Hillier" <pamhillier24@virginbroadband.com.au> Subject: Re: [SRY] Evidence of identity for marriage, re banns To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <863F7ABDD8FD468C91A139703203B65D@GENHILLIER> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";     reply-type=original Hi  Wayne perhaps not........One of my family married in Richmond Surrrey and lived in Twickenham, and census data was Twickenham for the most part......turns out they both worked for a family in Richmond where they first met.....and possibly married in the area as it was easier from work. When people are in service, time off is limited. He was the Butler and she was the cook.... BUT That being said, I have had one that married elsewhere because they had children.....we may never know why they didn't marry at or before the first child was born, but it seems they married just before the eldest child was due to marry, some 20 years later....and yes we got the certs and it is them. They were together in all the census data too. We think he lied to get into the army, was too young to marry her when she fell pregnant, and then it all got way too hard and they never bothered. But guilt might have set in when they had to appear in church for their children....whatever the reason......we can make suppositions but in some cases the truth is probably somewhere in between and died with them Cheers Pam from Adelaide Australia > > Hi all, > > I also have a problem with incorrect/ falsehoods with my great > grandparents. My great > grandmother Anne Bashford, was, as was the rest of her family members of > and were baptised > in the local  Coulsdon church. In fact both of her parents were buried > there. However she > chose to marry in the Croydon Parish church under banns in 1870. The man > she married gave > his name as William Bride (the registrar confirmed he wrote his name as > "Bride" on > the certificate) The next year has them in Coulsdon under the name > 'McBride' in the > 1871 census and subsequent children were baptised back in the Coulsdon > church. The Croydon > church never figured again in any family matters.There has obviously been > some deception > somewhere which leads me to question other parts of the certificate such > as William's > father's name & occupation. Also is my surname Bride or McBride? > > kindest regards > > Wayne (Mc)Bride > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:09:57 +0100 From: "Chew G" <G.Chew@rhul.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [SRY] Evidence of identity for marriage? To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID:     <E5F8E4518B68AA439EE1BDFCF08ABE7103638D83@EXCH-DB-02.cc.rhul.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My impression is that the approval of the "father", real or surrogate, who bore the surname seems to have been implied when the illegitimate offspring changed from the mother's surname.  But not officially, of course.  A typical example - my ancestor Joseph Chew, b. 1777, illegitimate, was called Joseph French after his mother at baptism, was called Joseph Chew French at his marriage, and once the likely father Thomas Chew had approved of him to the extent of naming him "Joseph Chew" in his will (early 19th century), he called himself Joseph Chew. But I don't have the impression he would have dared to do so in that village community unless he'd had Thomas's approval. Geoff Geoffrey Chew g.chew@rhul.ac.uk ________________________________ From: eng-surrey-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of rodfreeman27@talktalk.net Sent: Tue 22.9.09 14:03 To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Subject: [SRY] Evidence of identity for marriage? I'd appreciate Lister's thoughts on this situation: My paternal g-grandmother had an illegitimate daughter, born 1871, no father's name on the birth cert., before she 'co-habited'? (ie. never married) with with my g-grandfather in 1873.?This daughter carried her mother's surname (PADDICK)?at the 1881 Census. Then, mother struck up a relationship with another partner (George BAILEY),?and married him in Lambeth in 1892; aforesaid daughter is shown with this man's surname in the 1891 Census. When the daughter married in Islington in?1898 she gave her surname as 'BAILEY' and her father as George BAILEY. I know that under English Common Law you can call yourself whatever you like, but when it comes to officialdom,?documentrary evidence has to be provided. I doubt whether these humble folk would have have known about, or have been able to afford,?name change by Deed Poll?, so what proof, if any, would she had to have provided as to her identity prior to marriage? Rod. In cool and dull Notting Hill, West London. *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:35:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [SRY] Evidence of identity for marriage, re banns To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <835033.65451.qm@web24607.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 hya, it's not uncommon for names starting with Mac/Mc to have the Mc's dropped either deliberately or accidentally.  I have lots of Mc's in my family and it was forever happening - even within the one batch of children. There was also a period when the British Government was desperately trying to Anglicise all things, languages and names and many Irish & Scottish names underwent a spelling change to meet this requirement. Some registering clerks, teachers, ministers &c were very assiduous in carrying this out while others were more relaxed hence perhaps spelling varying from region to region.  Some names survived more successfully than others.  In some cases it may be that the clerk was unfamiliar with this Scottish/Irish influence on names and just didn't include it; it may be that the Mc was so clipped in speech that it wasn't recognised.  A not uncommon situation concerned the individual becoming aware of a local anti-Irish/anti-Scottish feeling in his adopted community, and voluntarily dropping the Mc/Mac in an attempt to integrate.    The name McBride has Gaelic origins, found both in Scotland and Ireland which fits with any of the above scenarios. We have to bear in mind too, that there were still a lot of illiterate folk in the 1870s and they simply didn't know how to spell their names or didn't appreciate the relevance of spelling so wouldn't recognise a mispelling on their marriage/birth lines &c. or if they did, may not have had the courage to face an apparent scholar to point out the mistake If the Mc appears on his name, it is more likely than not that it was his original name as the Mc is more often dropped than adopted. I suspect that if someone is seriously trying to deceive by altering his/her name, the alias would be more different than a mere dropping or adoption of a Mc.    happy digging :-) le durachd Fionnghal h church under banns in 1870. The man she married gave > his name as William Bride (the registrar confirmed he wrote > his name as "Bride" on > the certificate) The next year has them in Coulsdon under > the name 'McBride' in the .......There has obviously been some deception > somewhere which leads me to question other parts of the > certificate such as William's > father's name & occupation. Also is my surname Bride or > McBride?       ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:27:40 +0100 From: Penny Parker <pitstop67@hotmail.com> Subject: [SRY] 50 years between banns and marriage To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <COL109-W62FA9F473425088CC37DBCBBDB0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Thank you for the replies to my previous post. I now know that there can be no more than 3 months between banns and marriage. Can anyone give me any help with the following please: The banns were published as follows: Name: Margaret Merthens Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845  living at 24 Heath Street Spouse Name: Thomas Smith Spouse Age: 22  living at 22 Silver Street Record Type: Banns  Event Date: 23 Sep 1866 Parish: Saint Dunstan And All Saints County: Middlesex Borough: Tower Hamlets There is no record of a marriage even though I have searched for years. I know they were living in Morgan Street, St George in the East when their first child was born in September 1867. By 1889 they had moved to Sydenham (Lewisham) and remained there the rest of their lives. However they did not marry until 1917 as follows: Name: Margaret Merton Age: 69 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848 Spouse Name: Thomas Smith Spouse Age: 72 Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 7 May 1917 Parish: Christ Church County: Middlesex Borough: Southwark Father Name: Albert Merton Spouse Father Name: George Smith Both declared they were living at 40 Broadwall All these details are absolutely correct even her date of birth which was wrongly stated in the banns. Her surname was spelt differently on many documents - the spelling is correct on the Banns but by 1917 it could have been anglicised in this way. My question is how did they marry in Southwark when they lived in Lewisham and who did live at 40 Broadwall? Any help would be most appreciated. Penny                           _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:13:24 +0100 From: "Nivard Ovington" <ovington1@sky.com> Subject: Re: [SRY] 50 years between banns and marriage To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <028611B15AF940D79AA7827778D1B08F@claireac3e9bca> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";     reply-type=original Hi Penny >From what I can see they called the banns but then did not marry, there could have been many reasons for that and you may never know the exact one but perhaps Margaret was ill and they could not marry during the Banns period of three months Or they went to marry on the appointed day and the Banns were found to be incorrect in some way (age, name etc) they would have to have the Banns called again and perhaps for reasons unknown did not want to follow it through, you can imagine going to marry and having to return home and perhaps not wanting to say they hadn't been through the ceremony It may be significant that Margaret could not write her name when they married in 1917, therefore did not know the spelling of something (her name perhaps) was incorrect until the day of the marriage Although the spelling of surnames was very much a floating affair in earlier years, it could have been said on the day it was not spelled that way and the Vicar would have to have canceled the wedding if he were the pedantic type I have seen several Banns with that very reason annotated and therefore wedding canceled (i.e. incorrect spelling of surname) Was it significant that it was 50 years after they had originally intended to marry? perhaps, it might also have been a factor that they realised that Margaret may not have got a pension as a single lady Broadwall appears to still exist and is in Camberwell, if you contact the nearest library or local studies if there is one they may be able to help with the occupants in 1918 which I think would be the nearest electoral roll It would only need them to be believed that they were resident at that address for three weeks to be eligible to marry there, if they had lived as man and wife all those years they may have wanted to marry away from home to keep it a quiet affair, were either of the witnesses their children or known friends (perhaps the occupants of the mystery address?) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Thank you for the replies to my previous post. I now know that there can > be no more than 3 months between banns and marriage. > Can anyone give me any help with the following please: > The banns were published as follows: > Name: Margaret Merthens > Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845  living at 24 Heath Street > Spouse Name: Thomas Smith Spouse Age: 22  living at 22 Silver Street > Record Type: Banns  Event Date: 23 Sep 1866 > Parish: Saint Dunstan And All Saints County: Middlesex Borough: Tower > Hamlets ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:45:21 +0100 From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [SRY] 50 years between banns and marriage To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <002801ca3c3a$f396b370$dac41a50$@bradford@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii" Hi Penny My best guess would be that this pair had every intention of marrying in 1845, but something prevented the wedding from taking place.  It could be that Margaret was a wee bit younger than the 21 years she declared and that her father put a stop to it at the last minute.  Or it could be that one of them was ill.  They probably intended to try again in the near future.  But, given the birth date of their first child (was this actually in September, or in the quarter ending in September?), it looks like they may have "jumped the gun" a bit.  So rather than admit to having a child out of wedlock, they pretended to be married (this was very common).  This lack of a legal marriage and the white lie they had been living for so many years may have preyed on their minds, so they "did the right thing" in their twilight years.  Or perhaps, more practically, the decision was related to the recently introduced Old Age Pension scheme.  Married couples received more than single people and Thomas may have been nervous of being asked for his marriage certificate when he applied for his pension at aged 70.  It is possible that they married a little way from home out of embarrassment and a desire for secrecy.  But you are right to try and investigate the inhabitants of the address they both gave, as it would probably be at least a friend, if not a relative.  Who were the witnesses at the wedding?  I wonder whether their children ever knew that their parents had been living in sin all those years? Best wishes Caroline > > Can anyone give me any help with the following please: > > > > The banns were published as follows: > > > Name: Margaret Merthens > > Age: 21 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845  living at 24 Heath Street > > Spouse Name: Thomas Smith Spouse Age: 22  living at 22 Silver Street > > Record Type: Banns  Event Date: 23 Sep 1866 > > Parish: Saint Dunstan And All Saints County: Middlesex Borough: Tower > Hamlets > > > > There is no record of a marriage even though I have searched for years. > I know they were living in Morgan Street, St George in the East when > their first child was born in September 1867. > > > By 1889 they had moved to Sydenham (Lewisham) and remained there the > rest of their lives. However they did not marry until 1917 as follows: > > > > Name: Margaret Merton Age: 69 > > Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848 > > Spouse Name: Thomas Smith Spouse Age: 72 > > Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 7 May 1917 > > Parish: Christ Church County: Middlesex Borough: Southwark > > Father Name: Albert Merton Spouse Father Name: George Smith > > Both declared they were living at 40 Broadwall > > > All these details are absolutely correct even her date of birth which > was wrongly stated in the banns. Her surname was spelt differently on > many documents - the spelling is correct on the Banns but by 1917 it > could have been anglicised in this way. > > My question is how did they marry in Southwark when they lived in > Lewisham and who did live at 40 Broadwall? > > Any help would be most appreciated. > > Penny > > > _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:35:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [SRY] 50 years between banns and marriage To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <714620.57825.qm@web24602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I believe it wasn't uncommon for folk to start living together as man & wife after banns but without necessarily going as far as marrying.  Perhaps cost was a limiting factor or, it may be they thought banns was sufficient..  A bit like parents going for either baptism or registration.  I think a significant number of folk thought either/or was sufficient.  Could they simply just have been renewing their vows in 1917?  It's not that uncommon.  It is possible, in spite of your not having found an earlier marriage record, that your couple were married or truly believed they were.  Also, not all the London records are on-line yet.  you might come on it yet, or, pages or records may be missing le durachd fionnghal > The banns were published as follows: > > Record Type: Banns? Event Date: 23 Sep 1866 > Parish: Saint Dunstan And All Saints County: Middlesex > Borough: Tower Hamlets > Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 7 May 1917 > Parish: Christ Church County: Middlesex Borough: Southwark       ------------------------------ To contact the ENG-SURREY list administrator, send an email to ENG-SURREY-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the ENG-SURREY mailing list, send an email to ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of ENG-SURREY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 246 ******************************************

Hi. There was certainly a William Alexander Downing who was an Attorney-at-Law. He passed his exams in the Michaelmas term of 1858 after studying law at Downing College Cambridge, which was founded by Sir George Downing in circa 1800. Me thinks you have the wrong person and I believe the information on the marriage certificate is quite correct. Best regards. Adrian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mary jacob" <mdhwrites@verizon.net> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [SRY] Evidence of identity for marriage,re bannsRe: ENG-SURREY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 246 I think I've read all the responses to the above query, but I didn't see anything about proof of identity. I have no doubt about the bride and groom's name on my great grandparents' marriage certificate. William Alexander DOWNING, solicitor, married Ann JAGGS, daughter of William Jaggs, Master Mariner on 10 Sep 1860 at St Giles, Camberwell. My problem is the groom's father, George Downing, gentleman. As far as I can tell, the groom's father is Alexander Downing, servant, and his mother is Harriet (birth date 18 August 1823; baptism 17 January 1827, All Souls Church, Marylebone, Middlesex). On every census, W.A Downing's age and birthplace agree with the baptismal record. Would a person be asked for proof of his father's name? Or was William free to give any name he liked? My father told me his grandfather, the above W.A. Downing, was illegitimate, father unknown. It's my guess Alexander Downing was not W.A.'s father, explaining the gap between birth and baptism. Nor was his father George Downing, Gentleman as stated on the marriage cert. Since I haven't been able to find a marriage for Alexander Downing and Harriet, I do not know Harriet's surname. I found a William Downing living with Harriet Downing, widow, on the 1841 census, but cannot find him on the 1851 census. From 1861, he appears on every census, right age, right birthplace. Does anyone have any ideas? Mary in Maryland Mostly Surrey/Greater London names: Banks, Downing, Eldridge, Fisher, Jaggs, King, Ohlson, Pillow, Pettengill, Spratt, Webber,

When it came to the names of fathers (or indeed any names), there was no requirement for proof of identity and if they parties to the marriage were unknown to the officiating clergyman, they could say anything they liked. Obviously, if the vicar knew the family, the information given would usually be accurate. Anne South Australia Anne mary jacob wrote: > I think I've read all the responses to the above query, but I didn't see anything about proof of identity. > I have no doubt about the bride and groom's name on my great grandparents' marriage certificate. William Alexander DOWNING, solicitor, married Ann JAGGS, daughter of William Jaggs, Master Mariner on 10 Sep 1860 at St Giles, Camberwell. My problem is the groom's father, George Downing, gentleman. As far as I can tell, the groom's father is Alexander Downing, servant, and his mother is Harriet (birth date 18 August 1823; baptism 17 January 1827, All Souls Church, Marylebone, Middlesex). On every census, W.A Downing's age and birthplace agree with the baptismal record. > Would a person be asked for proof of his father's name? Or was William free to give any name he liked? > My father told me his grandfather, the above W.A. Downing, was illegitimate, father unknown. It's my guess Alexander Downing was not W.A.'s father, explaining the gap between birth and baptism. Nor was his father George Downing, Gentleman as stated on the marriage cert. > Since I haven't been able to find a marriage for Alexander Downing and Harriet, I do not know Harriet's surname. I found a William Downing living with Harriet Downing, widow, on the 1841 census, but cannot find him on the 1851 census. From 1861, he appears on every census, right age, right birthplace. > Does anyone have any ideas? > Mary in Maryland > Mostly Surrey/Greater London names: Banks, Downing, Eldridge, Fisher, Jaggs, King, Ohlson, Pillow, Pettengill, Spratt, Webber,

Hi Mary. There is no requirement to prove parental identity in British Law. And until recently you did not have to prove who you were either, and I think if you marry by banns you still do not need to prove your identity. Add to the confusion when you give your name as a parent registering a birth, to get married or when registering a death you are supposed to use the name you are known by (and use) not what your loving parents registered you with at birth. Got told off when dealing with my father's estate, my mother registered my father's death using the spelling for his second name from his birth certicate, not the spelling he preferred to use when dealing with banks etc. The guy in the probate office had to write on the probate papers 'otherwise known as'. Experence has shown me that marriage certificates can be the work of the imagination of the parties involved . More so than census returns. My parent's is a classic...the name my father told the registar for his father's name is actually his grandfathers. As he had not seen his father since he was 8 this might be the reason why. Both of the ages are also incorrect. On my husband's side there is a marriage certificate where both fathers' names are incorrect. When my grt grandparents ran away to get married, both were underage so they added a few years. Someone I know found out after her mother died that she had deducted 10 years from her age about the time of the marriage and maintained the deception to her death. I have the original wedding certificate for the grandparents of someone I am currently writing a book about. She invented a very fancy middle name for the occasion, when it came to registering the birth of her children she went back to the one she was born with. Again occupations leave a lot to be desired. Hotel Proprietor - ran a hovel of a pub which he did not own. I have seen a divorcee declare himself a batchelor and in the 1800s one or two cases of bigamy. Plenty of people marrying their dead spouses brother or sister (illegal until @90 years ago) and one where my 3gt Uncle married my 2gt aunt (his niece). I trust a full set of census records for a couple more than any marriage certificate. But without them you may never find out who the father is. In your case I think William was a little ashamed of his background so has beefed it up a bit. People used the term gentleman to indicate he had investments and did not have to work for a living. To stretch a point had his father retired by then and had an anuity from a previous employer or savings, if so he could call himself a gentleman!! I would love a time machine. Good luck with your hunt... Dorri > I think I've read all the responses to the above query, but I didn't see anything about proof of identity. > I have no doubt about the bride and groom's name on my great grandparents' marriage certificate. William Alexander DOWNING, solicitor, married Ann JAGGS, daughter of William Jaggs, Master Mariner on 10 Sep 1860 at St Giles, Camberwell. My problem is the groom's father, George Downing, gentleman. As far as I can tell, the groom's father is Alexander Downing, servant, and his mother is Harriet (birth date 18 August 1823; baptism 17 January 1827, All Souls Church, Marylebone, Middlesex). On every census, W.A Downing's age and birthplace agree with the baptismal record. > Would a person be asked for proof of his father's name? Or was William free to give any name he liked? > My father told me his grandfather, the above W.A. Downing, was illegitimate, father unknown. It's my guess Alexander Downing was not W.A.'s father, explaining the gap between birth and baptism. Nor was his father George Downing, Gentleman as stated on the marriage cert. > Since I haven't been able to find a marriage for Alexander Downing and Harriet, I do not know Harriet's surname. I found a William Downing living with Harriet Downing, widow, on the 1841 census, but cannot find him on the 1851 census. From 1861, he appears on every census, right age, right birthplace. > Does anyone have any ideas? > Mary in Maryland _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/