Hallo Daphne Firstly, I assume you know that Alfred and Charlotte Amy are definitely ‘yours’ and that you have documentary evidence to support this.   Their marriage entry at All Saints Paddington gives him a florist and his father a coachman.  His father was not a witness so you cannot assume he was still alive just because the word deceased did not appear on the certificate.   The census entries for the couple in 71, 81 and 91 all give him as a gardener, or florist and gardener b 1845 Ewell, Surrey so he is a good match with Alfred, son of Alfred, baptised in Ewell in 1844.  You say you obtained the date of baptism from the parish register.  I found this baptism on FamilySearch, parents Alfred and Louisa, but have you actually seen the original register or an image or transcript of the page?  The register will give the occupation of Alfred Snr, and hopefully he will be a coachman, but people did change their occupations.  It might be worth your while putting the West Surrey FHS new birth index on your Christmas list!   I think I have found your Alfred jnr working at 43-44 Duke St in the parish of St James, Westminster in the 1861 census.  He had to get to London at some point to meet and marry Charlotte and Duke Street is not that far from Paddington.  He gives his place of birth as Wimbledon, and that is where he went to live after his marriage, although the birth places of his children show that he did move around in that corner of Surrey.  That Wimbledon link suggests to me that he lived in Wimbledon as a child or had younger siblings born there, and perhaps moved back to be near his family.  Several of my family gave their birth place incorrectly on the first census they were away from home, always naming a place for the reasons given above.  By the next census someone in their family has put them right and their birth place then matches that on the earlier census returns completed by their parents, and with other documentary evidence.    There is a Charlotte Pavey, aged 16 b Chelsea in the 1861 census, daughter of William Pavey, a florist employing 4 men.  May not be your Charlotte because she gives her birth as Kingston.  On the marriage register Charlotte is the daughter of John B[e]lcher Pavey a boot maker.  The 1841 census has a Charlotte aged 7 in Kingston with John B Pavey 35 shoemaker and John B Pavey 3.  The marriage witnesses were John B and Eleanor Pavey.  There was no Eleanor in the 1841 household so is she Charlotte’s sister-in-law or step mother or cousin?  And does the name Charlotte in the Pavey florist’s household suggest a link between William and John B Pavey Snr?  Perhaps Alfred worked for William.  The 1861 census also has John B Pavey b Surrey in the Royal Navy at sea and ports abroad.  He was married and on board the Neptune in Malta.   By the way, Alfred Harris did not marry Louisa in 1838, he married a Sophia – I checked the register entry.  I have not found him in the 1841 or 51 censuses and I wondered whether Louisa had gone home to her mother/sister/family to have her first child – on the assumption that Alfred was likely to be her first son and possibly also her first child.  It could be worth checking earlier Ewell baptisms for a Louisa.  The combination of no marriage recorded for the parents, no birth registration and missing in the 1841 and 1851 census makes me wonder whether Alfred Snr at least, was abroad or in the army at some time and his marriage and his son’s birth were registered in the army/ overseas registers.  There are also a good number of Alfred Harris entries in the non conformist registers that you can access via TNA site.   Have you also checked the variant Harriss as well as Harris? Suggest you consolidate and confirm this generation (Alfred and Charlotte) to obtain maximum links and then go backwards   Hilary  Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:26:24 +1030 From: Anne Chambers <anne.chambers@bigpond.com> Subject: Re: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS 1851 To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <4B0DB618.60305@bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed There's another HARRIS baptised in Ewell        Christening:       24 NOV 1844       Ewell, Surrey, England             Parents:        Father:      JAMES HARRIS     Family        Mother:      CAROLINE You might be able to establish a connection between James Harris & Alfred Harris snr. The Ewell PRs are at the Epsom and Ewell Local and Family History Centre St. Mary, Ewell      * Baptisms from about 1597 to 1915 http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesByTITLE_RTF/Epsom+and+Ewell+Local+and+Family+History+Centre?opendocument Since you have the date of baptism, you might be able to ask them for a look up to get Albert snr's occupation and the address where they lived at the time of baptism.  You might even get a birthdate which will prove once & for all whether this is indeed your Alfred - he was not necessarily an infant when he was baptised. https://online.surreycc.gov.uk/esuite/esuite.nsf/openOnlineForm?open&fcunid=223B26AB71CB423E80256FF80044E66F&aztitle=Library:+Ask+Us I think until you establish once and for all that the Ewell Alfred is indeed your Alfred, anything else is just surmise. Anne > > Daphne Harvey wrote: >> Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard >> >> First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in >> breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. >> Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions >> .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my >> object clear. Sorry. >> >> What I have is this:- >> birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, 1844 >> baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 Parents >> -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS >> No siblings in that parish register. >> marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred >> snr. still alive, apparently) >> >> I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to >> trace the lines back. >> >> ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred >> and Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I >> can make a connection. >> I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was >> no match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to >> an Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. >> An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a >> mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. >> >> The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up >> Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my >> lot seem very Chapel orientated. >> Again, many thanks, Daphne