Thanks Hilary. Bricklayers and builders did seem to be interchangeable descriptions at that time. I'll follow this line - but my man was an Austin not a Martin. Was that a typo? Regards Jason HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > Hallo Jason > I searched the new Ancestry records for blank first name and > Mart*n Surname, father Richard child born Bermondsey Surrey England. > > This produced Rachel daughter of Richard and Rachal baptised Sep > 3rd 1815. Father a bricklayer living in Bermondsey Street, so he > could be the father of your John. Maybe he became a builder or > maybe John exaggerated his father's status on his marriage > certificate to impress the in laws. > > If you have access to the records and search for Rachel you will > find 2 entries. One is in the printed baptismal > register register, the other is in the 'rough register'. If you > start with the latter you can click back to the 1915 register at > the top of the entry from the image view, find the list of > registers available and then do a manual search forwards in case > your John is in there but was missed from the transcription. You > can also find these registers from the Southwark listings. The > 'rough registers' tend to be more accurate, and in the case of St > MM Bermondsey, they include the date of birth in the register of > baptisms. The date of birth is not shown in the printed register > of baptisms. > > If you still can't find him it may be worth looking at the > Bishop's Transcripts for 1820 -1824 period - his birth appears to > be round 1822. > > You may have discovered this already, but Saint Mary Magdalen at > Bermondsey does not have an e on the end of Magdalen. It is often > mis-spelt including in the historic Ancestry records, so you may > need to use both spellings when searching for your family. > > > > Hilary > > Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 08:52:47 -0700 > From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jason.austin@shaw.ca>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] Was Ancestry New Records now MARTIN > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <4ACB67CF.1050801@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4ACB67CF.1050801@shaw.ca>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Hilary > > Thanks for asking - I hadn't meant for people to search for me, I was > looking for ideas where to look myself. But having said that I will > gratefully accept any help given! > > His name is John AUSTIN. He was married in 1846 at Islington to Ann > Jane POLLARD, daughter of the painter Robert James POLLARD. Their > marriage certificate says his father was Richard AUSTIN, builder. > > The 1851 census says he was born in Bermondsey. I can't find him > in the > 1861 or 1871 census returns. He died in April 1872. > > He was a solicitors clerk. I believe he was a cousin of the London > developer Henry de Bruno AUSTIN and that he may have worked for > him in > the 1850's as a builders clerk. Around that time he began giving his > children the middle name "de Bruno". If he was related to Henry de > Bruno Austin then his family would have come from Devon. > > These are the notes I have about him from various birth BMD > certificates > that show his addresses and occupation. > > April 4 1846 2 Miltons Place, Islington, Middlesex > (marriage cert) "Clerk" > > 1851 census 42 Denton Place, St. James, Clerkenwell > John Austin, head, 29, accountant, > Bermondsey, Surrey > Ann J. wife 24 Dress > maker Holloway, Middlesex > Amelia J. dau > 3 Islington, Middlesex > Alfred J. son > 1 St. James, Clerkenwell > Ellen Bannergan serv 25 House > servant > Skibbereen, Cork > > October 19, 1854 43 Cleveland Square, Paddington/Islington, > Middlesex "Commercial Clerk" (Emma's birth certificate) > > November 2, 1856 2 Cloudesley Street Islington West, Middlesex > "Builders Clerk" (Arthur's birth certificate) > > August 30, 1859 15 Queens Head Lane, Islington, Middlesex > "Solicitors Common Law Clerk" (Richard's birth certificate) > (not here at the 1861 census - > occupied > by a bootmaker) > > > December 15, 1861 5 Stanley Road, Islington, Middlesex > "Proctors Clerk" (Florences' birth certificate) > > January 26, 1864 65 Mildmay Street, Islington "Solicitors > Clerk" > (Arthur's death certificate) > > March 5, 1864 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (Johns (Jnr) birth certificate) > > March 3, 1865 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (John (Jnr) death cert) > > January 3, 1866 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors > Clerk" (Catherine Ada's birth certificate) > > February 15, 1867 6 John's Terrace, Islington, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (Emma's death certificate) > (house occupied by a pianoforte > maker in > 1871) > > December 5 1868 3 Markfield Terrace, Tottenham, Edmonton, > Middlesex > "Solicitor's Clerk" (Ann Jane's death certificate) > (3 Markfield Terrace was unoccupied at > the 1871 census) > Note - Markfield is one street from > Denton Place where they lived at the 1851 census. > > December 9, 1868 3 Markfield Terrace Tottenham, Edmonton, > Middlesex > "Solicitors clerk" - death certificate of Catherine Ada Austin > > At the 1871 census his daughter Florence, 9, was living with her Aunt > Catherine (Pollard) Wray in Streatham, Surrey > > April 7, 1872 107 Essex Road, Islington, Middlesex His > death > certificate "Solicitor's Clerk" > (Frederick Brett, hairdresser, 54, was living here at the 1871 > census) > > > Many thanks! > > Jason > > HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > > >Jason > >You don't help us to help you by not giving the names of John's > parents. Family Search has the 1824 baptism of a John William > Martin son of John and Ann at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey. If > that is not him - > > > >See West Surrey FHS site for details of their pre 1837 birth and > marriage CDs not included in the IGI. > > > >See FamilySearch site/ Library/ Catalog/ Place search to see what > they have for Bermondsey > > > >See TNA site for non conformist births and down loadable images > from Dr Williams Library and other non conformist chapels > > > >Hilary > > > > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:59:17 -0700 > >From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jason.austin@shaw.ca>> > >Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records > >To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > >Message-ID: <4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca>> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, > >supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....! That man is going to > >have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > > > >Can anyone advise me what to try now? The 1851 census says he > was born > >in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at > least > >he was a dissenter. If his parents were dissenters was there a > baptism > >or other ritual that may have been recorded? > > > >Thanks > > > >Jason > > > >Message-ID: <1BF1A741D5A343E6B677697D5D73B5B8@Daphne1> > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > >Have you thought of Maze Pond Chapel, just by Guys Hospital. > >Daphne. > > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:00:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <934676.29177.qm@web24609.mail.ird.yahoo.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=934676.29177.qm@web24609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't > amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established > church.? None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they > were all Londoners.? 200yrs of them and not a single birth or > death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because > the man wasn't Catholic.? However, the kids grew up Catholic and > they're missing.? :-(? Many of them had really helpful names like > Clark/e - so easily distinguishable from the thousands of other > Clark/s on FreeBMD. :-/ I could cry. > > So maybe that's the problem.? > Have you tried > http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp > They have Bermondsey records: > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 > Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 > Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 > Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > > or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those > without getting a cd. > > 'Find my Past' also lists some. > You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone > may be able to help you if you provide more data. > > le durachd > > Fionnghal > > > An cestry's > > Fionnghal wrote: > > >If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't > amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established > church. None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they > were all Londoners. 200yrs of them and not a single birth or > death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because > the man wasn't Catholic. >So maybe that's the problem. > >Have you tried > >http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp > >They have Bermondsey records: > >St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 > >Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 > >Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 > >Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > > > >or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those > without getting a cd. > > > >'Find my Past' also lists some. > >You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone > may be able to help you if you provide more data. > > > >le durachd > > > >Fionnghal > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:51:13 +0100 > From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=caroline.bradford@btinternet.com>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin > To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com>> > Message-ID: > <008b01ca46b5$fab0b4f0$f0121ed0$@bradford@btinternet.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bradford@btinternet.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > You are correct that the parish registers involved in the recent > Ancestry/LMA/Guildhall project are just that - *parish* > registers. In other > words, CofE. Many non-parochial (i.e. non-parish, i.e. > non-conformist) > registers ended up at the National Archives and a lot of these are now > available via www.thegenealogist.co.uk (who won the contract to > digitise and > offer online access). The cost per record is pretty steep, and > the cost for > an image is steeper still, but the search facility is good and > searching the > index is free. If you think you might need to spend some time > with these > records, a shortish subscription might be better value, > particularly as they > have a great deal of other material, including *fully transcribed* > censuses > (i.e. occupations, addresses etc transcribed and therefore > searchable), and > a growing number of PCC wills available for download (credit-free > on many > subs). This latter facility can be very useful if you are trying > to piece > together a complex family through a large number of wills - the > 3.50 GBP > cost via TNA is very reasonable, but when you put the 6th one of > the evening > in your basket it can be a bit painful! > > Catholics are a nightmare (from the family history point of > view!). The > only large scale source of any information from their registers is the > Catholic National Library at Farnborough which has transcripts of > quite a > few churches. But from 1754 until 1837, Catholics would have had > to marry > in a CofE church, so you ought to be able to find them somewhere. > > Hope this helps > > Caroline > > > >