Hello Folks, Due to Ancestry's London records (and other detective work over the last year) I have finally (after about 18 years of looking) have a year of birth and death for my 4 gt grandfather, James Matthews. Yippee So from his burial record born @1774, died Sept 1828, buried 24 Sep 1828, Rotherhithe. Still I do not know where he was born or got married. However I do have a likely candidate and would like to eliminate or progress further. Is anyone out there researching the Matthews family and has a James Matthews born 1774-1775 possible father Thomas? I believe that this James was apprenticed as a Waterman/Lighterman on 06/08/1789. For some reason he never completed his apprenticeship. I have trawlled through the Watermen and Lightermen Company books, but no reason is given why on any of the apprentice records. My James ended up in the Royal Navy and had some of his family in Portsmouth. Between 1817 and 1828 he moved/returned to the Rotherhithe area with at least one son, one daughter and his wife Mary. He became a Waterman, I presume licenced by Trinty house, as the Company books do not list him. Regretfully the Trinity House records are incomplete. I have loads of information on the son and daughter, and I know when my 4gt grandmother dies (1848), but again I do not know when she was born, however from the 1841 census I know it is not Surrey. Hoping to remove yet another brick from this wall, Best Wishes, Dorri _________________________________________________________________ Access your other email accounts and manage all your email from one place. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/

Hallo Jason I searched the new Ancestry records for blank first name and Mart*n Surname, father Richard child born Bermondsey Surrey England.   This produced Rachel daughter of Richard and Rachal baptised Sep 3rd 1815. Father a bricklayer living in Bermondsey Street, so he could be the father of your John.   Maybe he became a builder or maybe John exaggerated his father's status on his marriage certificate to impress the in laws.   If you have access to the records and search for Rachel you will find 2 entries.  One is in the printed baptismal register register, the other is in the 'rough register'.  If you start with the latter you can click back to the 1915 register at the top of the entry from the image view, find the list of registers available and then do a manual search forwards in case your John is in there but was missed from the transcription.  You can also find these registers from the Southwark listings.  The 'rough registers' tend to be more accurate, and in the case of St MM Bermondsey, they include the date of birth in the register of baptisms.  The date of birth is not shown in the printed register of baptisms.   If you still can't find him it may be worth looking at the Bishop's Transcripts for 1820 -1824 period - his birth appears to be round 1822.   You may have discovered this already, but Saint Mary Magdalen at Bermondsey does not have an e on the end of Magdalen.  It is often mis-spelt including in the historic Ancestry records, so you may need to use both spellings when searching for your family.       Hilary   Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 08:52:47 -0700 From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: [SRY] Was Ancestry New Records  now MARTIN To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <4ACB67CF.1050801@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Hilary Thanks for asking - I hadn't meant for people to search for me, I was looking for ideas where to look myself.  But having said that I will gratefully accept any help given! His name is John AUSTIN.   He was married in 1846 at Islington to Ann Jane POLLARD, daughter of the painter Robert James POLLARD.  Their marriage certificate says his father was Richard AUSTIN, builder. The 1851 census says he was born in Bermondsey.  I can't find him in the 1861 or 1871 census returns.  He died in April 1872. He was a solicitors clerk.  I believe he was a cousin of the London developer Henry de Bruno AUSTIN and that he may have worked for him in the 1850's as a builders clerk.  Around that time he began giving his children the middle name "de Bruno".   If he was related to Henry de Bruno Austin then his family would have come from Devon. These are the notes I have about him from various birth BMD certificates that show his addresses and occupation. April 4 1846             2 Miltons Place, Islington, Middlesex  (marriage cert) "Clerk" 1851 census            42 Denton Place, St. James, Clerkenwell                                 John Austin, head, 29, accountant,  Bermondsey, Surrey                                 Ann J.    wife           24  Dress maker      Holloway, Middlesex                                 Amelia J. dau            3                     Islington, Middlesex                                 Alfred J.   son            1                    St. James, Clerkenwell                                 Ellen Bannergan  serv 25 House servant  Skibbereen, Cork                               October 19, 1854     43 Cleveland Square, Paddington/Islington, Middlesex   "Commercial Clerk"    (Emma's birth certificate) November 2, 1856  2 Cloudesley Street  Islington West, Middlesex    "Builders Clerk"    (Arthur's birth certificate) August 30, 1859      15 Queens Head Lane, Islington, Middlesex      "Solicitors Common Law Clerk"   (Richard's birth certificate)                                (not here at the 1861 census - occupied by a bootmaker)                             December 15, 1861      5 Stanley Road, Islington, Middlesex      "Proctors Clerk"    (Florences' birth  certificate) January 26, 1864    65 Mildmay Street, Islington   "Solicitors Clerk"  (Arthur's death certificate) March 5, 1864         4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex    "Solicitors Clerk"   (Johns (Jnr) birth certificate) March 3, 1865         4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex    "Solicitors Clerk"   (John (Jnr) death cert) January 3, 1866    4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex  "Solicitors Clerk"  (Catherine Ada's birth certificate) February 15, 1867    6 John's Terrace, Islington, Middlesex    "Solicitors Clerk"  (Emma's death certificate)                                (house occupied by a pianoforte maker in  1871)                               December 5 1868    3 Markfield Terrace, Tottenham, Edmonton, Middlesex    "Solicitor's Clerk"   (Ann Jane's death  certificate)                                (3 Markfield Terrace was unoccupied at the 1871 census)                                 Note - Markfield is one street from Denton Place where they lived at the 1851 census. December 9, 1868    3 Markfield Terrace Tottenham, Edmonton, Middlesex "Solicitors clerk" - death certificate of Catherine Ada Austin At the 1871 census his daughter Florence, 9, was living with her Aunt Catherine (Pollard) Wray in Streatham, Surrey April 7, 1872           107 Essex Road, Islington, Middlesex  His death certificate   "Solicitor's Clerk"        (Frederick Brett, hairdresser, 54, was living here at the 1871 census)       Many thanks! Jason HILARY BLANFORD wrote: >Jason >You don't help us to help you by not giving the names of John's parents.  Family Search has the 1824 baptism of a John William Martin son of John and Ann at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey.   If that is not him - > >See West Surrey FHS site for details of their pre 1837  birth and marriage CDs not included in the IGI. > >See FamilySearch site/ Library/ Catalog/ Place search to see what they have for Bermondsey > >See TNA site for non conformist births and down loadable images from Dr Williams Library and other non conformist chapels > >Hilary > > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:59:17 -0700 >From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca> >Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records >To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >  but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, >supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....!     That man is going to >have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > >Can anyone advise me what to try now?   The 1851 census says he was born >in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at least >he was a dissenter.   If his parents were dissenters was there a baptism >or other ritual that may have been recorded? > >Thanks > >Jason >  >Message-ID: <1BF1A741D5A343E6B677697D5D73B5B8@Daphne1> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >    reply-type=original > >Have you thought of Maze Pond Chapel, just by Guys Hospital. >Daphne.   Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:00:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <934676.29177.qm@web24609.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established church.? None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they were all Londoners.? 200yrs of them and not a single birth or death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because the man wasn't Catholic.? However, the kids grew up Catholic and they're missing.? :-(? Many of them had really helpful names like Clark/e - so easily distinguishable from the thousands of other Clark/s on FreeBMD. :-/ I could cry. So maybe that's the problem.? Have you tried http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp They have Bermondsey records: St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available]     St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available]     St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those without getting a cd. 'Find my Past' also lists some.  You don't mention when he was born or any other details.  Someone may be able to help you if you provide more data. le durachd Fionnghal > An cestry's  Fionnghal wrote: >If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established church.  None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they were all Londoners.  200yrs of them and not a single birth or death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because the man wasn't Catholic.   >So maybe that's the problem.  >Have you tried >http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp >They have Bermondsey records: >St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 >Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] >    St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 >Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] >    St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 >Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > >or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those without getting a cd. > >'Find my Past' also lists some.  >You don't mention when he was born or any other details.  Someone may be able to help you if you provide more data. > >le durachd > >Fionnghal >    Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:51:13 +0100 From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <008b01ca46b5$fab0b4f0$f0121ed0$@bradford@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1" You are correct that the parish registers involved in the recent Ancestry/LMA/Guildhall project are just that - *parish* registers.  In other words, CofE.  Many non-parochial (i.e. non-parish, i.e. non-conformist) registers ended up at the National Archives and a lot of these are now available via www.thegenealogist.co.uk (who won the contract to digitise and offer online access).  The cost per record is pretty steep, and the cost for an image is steeper still, but the search facility is good and searching the index is free.  If you think you might need to spend some time with these records, a shortish subscription might be better value, particularly as they have a great deal of other material, including *fully transcribed* censuses (i.e. occupations, addresses etc transcribed and therefore searchable), and a growing number of PCC wills available for download (credit-free on many subs).  This latter facility can be very useful if you are trying to piece together a complex family through a large number of wills - the 3.50 GBP cost via TNA is very reasonable, but when you put the 6th one of the evening in your basket it can be a bit painful! Catholics are a nightmare (from the family history point of view!).  The only large scale source of any information from their registers is the Catholic National Library at Farnborough which has transcripts of quite a few churches.  But from 1754 until 1837, Catholics would have had to marry in a CofE church, so you ought to be able to find them somewhere. Hope this helps Caroline     

Thanks Hilary. Bricklayers and builders did seem to be interchangeable descriptions at that time. I'll follow this line - but my man was an Austin not a Martin. Was that a typo? Regards Jason HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > Hallo Jason > I searched the new Ancestry records for blank first name and > Mart*n Surname, father Richard child born Bermondsey Surrey England. > > This produced Rachel daughter of Richard and Rachal baptised Sep > 3rd 1815. Father a bricklayer living in Bermondsey Street, so he > could be the father of your John. Maybe he became a builder or > maybe John exaggerated his father's status on his marriage > certificate to impress the in laws. > > If you have access to the records and search for Rachel you will > find 2 entries. One is in the printed baptismal > register register, the other is in the 'rough register'. If you > start with the latter you can click back to the 1915 register at > the top of the entry from the image view, find the list of > registers available and then do a manual search forwards in case > your John is in there but was missed from the transcription. You > can also find these registers from the Southwark listings. The > 'rough registers' tend to be more accurate, and in the case of St > MM Bermondsey, they include the date of birth in the register of > baptisms. The date of birth is not shown in the printed register > of baptisms. > > If you still can't find him it may be worth looking at the > Bishop's Transcripts for 1820 -1824 period - his birth appears to > be round 1822. > > You may have discovered this already, but Saint Mary Magdalen at > Bermondsey does not have an e on the end of Magdalen. It is often > mis-spelt including in the historic Ancestry records, so you may > need to use both spellings when searching for your family. > > > > Hilary > > Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 08:52:47 -0700 > From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jason.austin@shaw.ca>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] Was Ancestry New Records now MARTIN > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <4ACB67CF.1050801@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4ACB67CF.1050801@shaw.ca>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi Hilary > > Thanks for asking - I hadn't meant for people to search for me, I was > looking for ideas where to look myself. But having said that I will > gratefully accept any help given! > > His name is John AUSTIN. He was married in 1846 at Islington to Ann > Jane POLLARD, daughter of the painter Robert James POLLARD. Their > marriage certificate says his father was Richard AUSTIN, builder. > > The 1851 census says he was born in Bermondsey. I can't find him > in the > 1861 or 1871 census returns. He died in April 1872. > > He was a solicitors clerk. I believe he was a cousin of the London > developer Henry de Bruno AUSTIN and that he may have worked for > him in > the 1850's as a builders clerk. Around that time he began giving his > children the middle name "de Bruno". If he was related to Henry de > Bruno Austin then his family would have come from Devon. > > These are the notes I have about him from various birth BMD > certificates > that show his addresses and occupation. > > April 4 1846 2 Miltons Place, Islington, Middlesex > (marriage cert) "Clerk" > > 1851 census 42 Denton Place, St. James, Clerkenwell > John Austin, head, 29, accountant, > Bermondsey, Surrey > Ann J. wife 24 Dress > maker Holloway, Middlesex > Amelia J. dau > 3 Islington, Middlesex > Alfred J. son > 1 St. James, Clerkenwell > Ellen Bannergan serv 25 House > servant > Skibbereen, Cork > > October 19, 1854 43 Cleveland Square, Paddington/Islington, > Middlesex "Commercial Clerk" (Emma's birth certificate) > > November 2, 1856 2 Cloudesley Street Islington West, Middlesex > "Builders Clerk" (Arthur's birth certificate) > > August 30, 1859 15 Queens Head Lane, Islington, Middlesex > "Solicitors Common Law Clerk" (Richard's birth certificate) > (not here at the 1861 census - > occupied > by a bootmaker) > > > December 15, 1861 5 Stanley Road, Islington, Middlesex > "Proctors Clerk" (Florences' birth certificate) > > January 26, 1864 65 Mildmay Street, Islington "Solicitors > Clerk" > (Arthur's death certificate) > > March 5, 1864 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (Johns (Jnr) birth certificate) > > March 3, 1865 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (John (Jnr) death cert) > > January 3, 1866 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex > "Solicitors > Clerk" (Catherine Ada's birth certificate) > > February 15, 1867 6 John's Terrace, Islington, Middlesex > "Solicitors Clerk" (Emma's death certificate) > (house occupied by a pianoforte > maker in > 1871) > > December 5 1868 3 Markfield Terrace, Tottenham, Edmonton, > Middlesex > "Solicitor's Clerk" (Ann Jane's death certificate) > (3 Markfield Terrace was unoccupied at > the 1871 census) > Note - Markfield is one street from > Denton Place where they lived at the 1851 census. > > December 9, 1868 3 Markfield Terrace Tottenham, Edmonton, > Middlesex > "Solicitors clerk" - death certificate of Catherine Ada Austin > > At the 1871 census his daughter Florence, 9, was living with her Aunt > Catherine (Pollard) Wray in Streatham, Surrey > > April 7, 1872 107 Essex Road, Islington, Middlesex His > death > certificate "Solicitor's Clerk" > (Frederick Brett, hairdresser, 54, was living here at the 1871 > census) > > > Many thanks! > > Jason > > HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > > >Jason > >You don't help us to help you by not giving the names of John's > parents. Family Search has the 1824 baptism of a John William > Martin son of John and Ann at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey. If > that is not him - > > > >See West Surrey FHS site for details of their pre 1837 birth and > marriage CDs not included in the IGI. > > > >See FamilySearch site/ Library/ Catalog/ Place search to see what > they have for Bermondsey > > > >See TNA site for non conformist births and down loadable images > from Dr Williams Library and other non conformist chapels > > > >Hilary > > > > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:59:17 -0700 > >From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jason.austin@shaw.ca>> > >Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records > >To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > >Message-ID: <4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca>> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, > >supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....! That man is going to > >have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > > > >Can anyone advise me what to try now? The 1851 census says he > was born > >in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at > least > >he was a dissenter. If his parents were dissenters was there a > baptism > >or other ritual that may have been recorded? > > > >Thanks > > > >Jason > > > >Message-ID: <1BF1A741D5A343E6B677697D5D73B5B8@Daphne1> > >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > >Have you thought of Maze Pond Chapel, just by Guys Hospital. > >Daphne. > > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 06:00:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <934676.29177.qm@web24609.mail.ird.yahoo.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=934676.29177.qm@web24609.mail.ird.yahoo.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't > amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established > church.? None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they > were all Londoners.? 200yrs of them and not a single birth or > death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because > the man wasn't Catholic.? However, the kids grew up Catholic and > they're missing.? :-(? Many of them had really helpful names like > Clark/e - so easily distinguishable from the thousands of other > Clark/s on FreeBMD. :-/ I could cry. > > So maybe that's the problem.? > Have you tried > http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp > They have Bermondsey records: > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 > Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 > Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 > Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > > or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those > without getting a cd. > > 'Find my Past' also lists some. > You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone > may be able to help you if you provide more data. > > le durachd > > Fionnghal > > > An cestry's > > Fionnghal wrote: > > >If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't > amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established > church. None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they > were all Londoners. 200yrs of them and not a single birth or > death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because > the man wasn't Catholic. >So maybe that's the problem. > >Have you tried > >http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp > >They have Bermondsey records: > >St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 > >Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 > >Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 > >Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > > > >or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those > without getting a cd. > > > >'Find my Past' also lists some. > >You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone > may be able to help you if you provide more data. > > > >le durachd > > > >Fionnghal > > > > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 19:51:13 +0100 > From: "Caroline Bradford" <caroline.bradford@btinternet.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=caroline.bradford@btinternet.com>> > Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin > To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eng-surrey@rootsweb.com>> > Message-ID: > <008b01ca46b5$fab0b4f0$f0121ed0$@bradford@btinternet.com > <http://uk.mc867.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bradford@btinternet.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > You are correct that the parish registers involved in the recent > Ancestry/LMA/Guildhall project are just that - *parish* > registers. In other > words, CofE. Many non-parochial (i.e. non-parish, i.e. > non-conformist) > registers ended up at the National Archives and a lot of these are now > available via www.thegenealogist.co.uk (who won the contract to > digitise and > offer online access). The cost per record is pretty steep, and > the cost for > an image is steeper still, but the search facility is good and > searching the > index is free. If you think you might need to spend some time > with these > records, a shortish subscription might be better value, > particularly as they > have a great deal of other material, including *fully transcribed* > censuses > (i.e. occupations, addresses etc transcribed and therefore > searchable), and > a growing number of PCC wills available for download (credit-free > on many > subs). This latter facility can be very useful if you are trying > to piece > together a complex family through a large number of wills - the > 3.50 GBP > cost via TNA is very reasonable, but when you put the 6th one of > the evening > in your basket it can be a bit painful! > > Catholics are a nightmare (from the family history point of > view!). The > only large scale source of any information from their registers is the > Catholic National Library at Farnborough which has transcripts of > quite a > few churches. But from 1754 until 1837, Catholics would have had > to marry > in a CofE church, so you ought to be able to find them somewhere. > > Hope this helps > > Caroline > > > >

Martin? Austin surely! > From: HILARY BLANFORD <hilaryblanford@btinternet.com> > I searched the new Ancestry records for blank first name > and Mart*n Surname, father Richard child born Bermondsey > Surrey England. > >> His name is John AUSTIN.   He was married in 1846 at >> Islington to Ann >> Jane POLLARD, daughter of the painter Robert James >> POLLARD.  Their >> marriage certificate says his father was Richard AUSTIN, >> builder. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

You are correct that the parish registers involved in the recent Ancestry/LMA/Guildhall project are just that - *parish* registers. In other words, CofE. Many non-parochial (i.e. non-parish, i.e. non-conformist) registers ended up at the National Archives and a lot of these are now available via www.thegenealogist.co.uk (who won the contract to digitise and offer online access). The cost per record is pretty steep, and the cost for an image is steeper still, but the search facility is good and searching the index is free. If you think you might need to spend some time with these records, a shortish subscription might be better value, particularly as they have a great deal of other material, including *fully transcribed* censuses (i.e. occupations, addresses etc transcribed and therefore searchable), and a growing number of PCC wills available for download (credit-free on many subs). This latter facility can be very useful if you are trying to piece together a complex family through a large number of wills - the 3.50 GBP cost via TNA is very reasonable, but when you put the 6th one of the evening in your basket it can be a bit painful! Catholics are a nightmare (from the family history point of view!). The only large scale source of any information from their registers is the Catholic National Library at Farnborough which has transcripts of quite a few churches. But from 1754 until 1837, Catholics would have had to marry in a CofE church, so you ought to be able to find them somewhere. Hope this helps Caroline > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-surrey-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-surrey- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fionnghal > Sent: 06 October 2009 14:01 > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records - John Austin > > If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't > amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established > church.  None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they were all > Londoners.  200yrs of them and not a single birth or death coming up > and the one marriage only that appears was because the man wasn't > Catholic.  However, the kids grew up Catholic and they're missing.  :- > (  Many of them had really helpful names like Clark/e - so easily > distinguishable from the thousands of other Clark/s on FreeBMD. :-/ I > could cry. > > So maybe that's the problem. > Have you tried > http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp > They have Bermondsey records: > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 > Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 > Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 > Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > > or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those > without getting a cd. > > 'Find my Past' also lists some. > You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone may > be able to help you if you provide more data. > > le durachd > > Fionnghal > > > Ancestry's latest offerings with the > > London parish records but I STILL can't find my elusive > > John Austin. 1851 census says he was born > > in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his > > death at least he was a dissenter.   If his parents were > > dissenters was there a baptism > > or other ritual that may have been recorded? > > > > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Hallo Lawrence Did you try entering male and female when you were searching? Possibly Ann Births Mar 1842    PEARCE  Female St Jas. West  1 110 Possibly Maria Births Sep 1847    Pearce Female St Giles &c  1 74   St Giles in the Fields is close to St James and Clement Dane. I tried searching for Male Pearce/ Pearse/Peers/Pierce but no joy. If you go to www.freebmd.org.uk and just enter john pearce and limiting dates around 1850 you should be able to access the scans of the GRO register pages and scroll through the Ps for each quarter to see if there is a likely match. You can do it from Ancestry as well. I believe it's quicker to order certs off the FreeBMD site because the link takes you straight to the Identity and Passport Service pages. Use this link to obtain the URL as you will need to register with the site and receive a password before ordering any certificates. You can also use their checking facility (free) to ensure you are only sent the correct certificate. You have a choice of conditions you can enter eg father's name.   You will not find the marriages and births of the Clement Dane/St James/St Giles events on the new Ancestry section because St Giles has retained its registers and the other 2 parishes are in Westminster and their records are held in Westminster Library. The digitised parish records in the new historic ancestry section all come from the LMA/Guildhall holdings. I'll leave the census queries for somebody else to help. Hilary  Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:57:59 +0000 From: Lawrence Pearse <lawrencepearse@msn.com> Subject: [SRY] request for help or advice To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <SNT119-W124AE818A034E60FCED5AD0CF0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello everyone There has been so much wonderful advice and help proferred on so many topics lately that I wonder if anyone can give me some.  I have a family in the 1851 census, but can trace almost no birth/marriage/death records for any of them and no census records in 1861 or 1871.  One of them turns up in the 1881 census but his wife may have re-married by 1888 and there is no death record for him.  Suggestions of how to search or places to search other than census and BMD sites would be very much appreciated.  Details are as follows: The 1851 census records the following in St Clement Danes (yes, I know that's Middlesex but see below!): John Pearce aged 39 painter born St Anns Middx Ann Pearce wife 37 born Durham Ann Pearce daughter 9 born St Clement Danes Maria Pearce daug 5 born St Clement Danes Jane Pearce daug 3 born St Clement Danes - birth recorded in Strand, 1847, daug of John Joseph Pearse (note spelling) and Ann nee Richardson John Pearce son 1 born St Clement Danes Jane Pearce married in 1871 in St Johns Waterloo John Pearse (sic) married in 1873 in St Johns Waterloo and I can trace his children (a mixture of Pearse and Pearce) John Pearse and his wife and family are recorded in 1881 (under Perarse) in Broadwall, Christchurch, Southwark John Pearse's wife appears to have re-married by 1888 when she had a son by another man (Thomas Henry Wright) in St Saviour, Surrey, when she is recorded as "late Pearce, formerly Mayston [known to be her maiden name]"; she is recorded with her son and new man using his name in 1891, together with her children by John Pearse, but there is no trace of a marriage record (she may of course have been simply living with the new man but using his surname) nor a death record for John Pearse, though he is certainly dead by 1904 when one of his daughters married. I can find no trace of the family of John Joseph Pearce and Ann Pearce (or Pearse) in the 1861 or 1871 censuses, nor any of their deaths or other marriages. Suggestions gratefully received! Lawrence Pearse  

The LDS Family Search records show: John Longley Austen, b. 19 August 1835, christening 20 September 1836, Jamaica Row, Independent, Bermondsey, Surrey England Parents: John Austen; Mary Ann. No marriage or children information. Perhaps this is your man? I am presuming (I am a complete amateur here) that the reference to "independent" might help in locating the Church in question? There are, in addition, tons of other John Austins (under various spellings, and many probably are multiple entries of the same individuals) in the few hundred years preceding, all throughout Surrey. Michael C Canada

Have you thought of Maze Pond Chapel, just by Guys Hospital. Daphne. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Austin" <jason.austin@shaw.ca> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records > Seconding Paul's applause for Ancestry's latest offerings with the > London parish records but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, > supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....! That man is going to > have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > > Can anyone advise me what to try now? The 1851 census says he was born > in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at least > he was a dissenter. If his parents were dissenters was there a baptism > or other ritual that may have been recorded? > > Thanks > > Jason > > > > Paul Eggleton wrote: > >>Ancestry has been very unkind to my time by loading thousands of records >>mainly for London but also North Surrey. I have found so many relatives, >>some of which are major breakthroughs for me, especially on my wife's >>side, whose ancestry was nearly all from London. The marriages in >>particular, showing the father's name and profession has been critical and >>their search engine has also been very good, so that e.g. you can enter >>the father's name or mother's and find all the children for baptisms. They >>don't seem to have that many burials but marriages and bpt are great. >> >>I have certainly got my money's worth this year from ancestry and well >>done to them. >> >>Paul >>*************************************** >>Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** >>superfluous old messages in replies. >> >>List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ NOD32 4482 (20091005) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > >

Abney Park is a great resource, I'm familiar with it and found all my Buik folk residing there, however, my Clarkes married into the Fitzmaurice family who had a preference for St Patrick's Roman Catholic Cemetery, Leytonstone and although i know for a fact that the F/m's are there, they don't show in Findmypast parish burials and my cd obly covers from 1861 to 1880. some may also be in St Mary Moorfields. However, I seem to be creeping out of Surrey so better leave it at that cheers for now Fionnghal > > For your Clark/e's did you look at Abney Park > cemetery?  Their index

Thanks Michael. My John was born in1822 and his father was Richard. Regards Jason Michael Clifton wrote: >The LDS Family Search records show: > >John Longley Austen, b. 19 August 1835, christening 20 September 1836, Jamaica Row, Independent, Bermondsey, Surrey England > >Parents: John Austen; Mary Ann. > >No marriage or children information. > >Perhaps this is your man? I am presuming (I am a complete amateur here) that the reference to "independent" might help in locating the Church in question? > >There are, in addition, tons of other John Austins (under various spellings, and many probably are multiple entries of the same individuals) in the few hundred years preceding, all throughout Surrey. > > >Michael C >Canada > > > >

Sorry, I should have given the link for Abney Park. It is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~abneypark/abneyy.html?o_xid=9872&o_lid=9872&offerid=0:694:0 <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Eabneypark/abneyy.html?o_xid=9872&o_lid=9872&offerid=0:694:0> Jason Jason Austin wrote: > Hi Fionnghal > > Thanks for your message. > > For your Clark/e's did you look at Abney Park cemetery? Their index > shows 757 Clarks and 527 Clarke's buried there. > >For my John Austin I think I have searched all the on-line Bermondsey parish records, including Findmypast and the latest Ancestry ones. So I have to go a path less travelled ... lol You've probably seen a later post where I gave all the info I have on him. > >Best wishes to you too! > >Jason > >

Hi Fionnghal Thanks for your message. For your Clark/e's did you look at Abney Park cemetery? Their index shows 757 Clarks and 527 Clarke's buried there. For my John Austin I think I have searched all the on-line Bermondsey parish records, including Findmypast and the latest Ancestry ones. So I have to go a path less travelled ... lol You've probably seen a later post where I gave all the info I have on him. Best wishes to you too! Jason Fionnghal wrote: >If he and his family were dissenters, it is possible they aren't amongst Ancestry's offerings which look to be mainly Established church. None of my Catholic root are to be found, though they were all Londoners. 200yrs of them and not a single birth or death coming up and the one marriage only that appears was because the man wasn't Catholic. However, the kids grew up Catholic and they're missing. :-( Many of them had really helpful names like Clark/e - so easily distinguishable from the thousands of other Clark/s on FreeBMD. :-/ I could cry. > >So maybe that's the problem. >Have you tried >http://www.parishregister.com/searchpage.asp >They have Bermondsey records: >St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1782 to 1812 >Entries:13,606 Completion:100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1813 to 1822 >Entries:4,791 Completion: 100% [CD available] > St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 1822 to 1829 >Entries:4,783 Completion:100% [CD available] > >or you can do a search for likely individuals and purchase those without getting a cd. > >'Find my Past' also lists some. >You don't mention when he was born or any other details. Someone may be able to help you if you provide more data. > >le durachd > >Fionnghal > > > >>Ancestry's latest offerings with the >>London parish records but I STILL can't find my elusive >>John Austin. 1851 census says he was born >>in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his >>death at least he was a dissenter. If his parents were >>dissenters was there a baptism >>or other ritual that may have been recorded? >> >> > > > > > >*************************************** >Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > >List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Hi Brian I'm happy to try and help, though you may want to note for future reference that Uxbridge is in Middlesex, not Surrey. The image of the 1851 census confirms you suspicion about William Snr's occupation. It reads "Major Spanish Service Lieu [Lieutenant] Half Pay Army" The second half of this description has been continued onto the line below (where Susan's occupation would normally appear). This suggests to me that he was part of the "British Foreign Legion in Spain" which was raised in 1835. For details, go to http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk and put Foreign Legion in Spain in the search box. William Jnr seems to have been a regular soldier, and TNA has his pension records. Normally, one can purchase digital copies of the relevant documents online, but there may be a problem at the moment, because this series of records is currently undergoing digitisation (and your chap doesn't seem to have been done yet!) and the files may not be available. Hope this helps Caroline > > Hello, > > > > As a new member of the list I am researching my BREW family > connections. Am hoping someone can help with two entries which I have > obtained from both the 1841 and 1851 census transcripts. In both my > BREW ancestors, including husband wife and son have Army connections. > In particular the husband is listed with the occupation of " Mayor > Spanish Servicer". I would love to find out what this Army connection > was, I do wonder if the word "Mayor" should in fact read " Major", but > if anyone can assist in any way or give me another link to follow up I > would be most grateful. Possible conection with the Middlesex Militia, > but this is only a guess on my part. > > > > >From Brian Martin,Corby, Northants. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Access your other email accounts and manage all your email from one > place. > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/ > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave Unfortunately the transcribed Baptisms are from 1813 so just miss your target The marriages are earlier though starting 1754 The nearest I found for your marriage is :- Name: William Richardson Spouse Name: Lydia Shellshear Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 26 Sep 1762 Parish: St Sepulchre Holborn County: London Borough: City of London Even if you are not a subscriber, you should be able to check the index for any likely candidates for other events Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Can I be a bit cheeky, and ask if my elusive Juliet Elsworth, supposedly > born circa 1809, in Islington, appears in the records? Her father was > Joseph Elsworth, according to her marriage cert. > > ..and the marriage of William Richardson to Lydia somebody, circa 1760, > possibly in Holborn (all known children born there). > Regards > Dave

From: "Jason Austin" <jason.austin@shaw.ca> > Seconding Paul's applause for Ancestry's latest offerings with the > London parish records but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, > supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....! That man is going to > have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > > Can anyone advise me what to try now? The 1851 census says he was born > in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at least > he was a dissenter. If his parents were dissenters was there a baptism > or other ritual that may have been recorded? Hello Jason Abney Park Cemetery was non-denominational so unless you have additional information, you can't deduce religious persuasion simply because a person was buried there. Ann

Hi Jason You may want to take a look at www.archive.org Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >I have just found on google books, an 1831, 418 page publication called > "A Topographical dictionary of London and its Environs". It gives the > location of various streets and places. For example:

Jason Austin wrote: > Seconding Paul's applause for Ancestry's latest offerings with the > London parish records Can I be a bit cheeky, and ask if my elusive Juliet Elsworth, supposedly born circa 1809, in Islington, appears in the records? Her father was Joseph Elsworth, according to her marriage cert. ..and the marriage of William Richardson to Lydia somebody, circa 1760, possibly in Holborn (all known children born there). -- Regards Dave

Hi Hilary Thanks for asking - I hadn't meant for people to search for me, I was looking for ideas where to look myself. But having said that I will gratefully accept any help given! His name is John AUSTIN. He was married in 1846 at Islington to Ann Jane POLLARD, daughter of the painter Robert James POLLARD. Their marriage certificate says his father was Richard AUSTIN, builder. The 1851 census says he was born in Bermondsey. I can't find him in the 1861 or 1871 census returns. He died in April 1872. He was a solicitors clerk. I believe he was a cousin of the London developer Henry de Bruno AUSTIN and that he may have worked for him in the 1850's as a builders clerk. Around that time he began giving his children the middle name "de Bruno". If he was related to Henry de Bruno Austin then his family would have come from Devon. These are the notes I have about him from various birth BMD certificates that show his addresses and occupation. April 4 1846 2 Miltons Place, Islington, Middlesex (marriage cert) "Clerk" 1851 census 42 Denton Place, St. James, Clerkenwell John Austin, head, 29, accountant, Bermondsey, Surrey Ann J. wife 24 Dress maker Holloway, Middlesex Amelia J. dau 3 Islington, Middlesex Alfred J. son 1 St. James, Clerkenwell Ellen Bannergan serv 25 House servant Skibbereen, Cork October 19, 1854 43 Cleveland Square, Paddington/Islington, Middlesex "Commercial Clerk" (Emma's birth certificate) November 2, 1856 2 Cloudesley Street Islington West, Middlesex "Builders Clerk" (Arthur's birth certificate) August 30, 1859 15 Queens Head Lane, Islington, Middlesex "Solicitors Common Law Clerk" (Richard's birth certificate) (not here at the 1861 census - occupied by a bootmaker) December 15, 1861 5 Stanley Road, Islington, Middlesex "Proctors Clerk" (Florences' birth certificate) January 26, 1864 65 Mildmay Street, Islington "Solicitors Clerk" (Arthur's death certificate) March 5, 1864 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex "Solicitors Clerk" (Johns (Jnr) birth certificate) March 3, 1865 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex "Solicitors Clerk" (John (Jnr) death cert) January 3, 1866 4 Spencer Road, Albert Town, Middlesex "Solicitors Clerk" (Catherine Ada's birth certificate) February 15, 1867 6 John's Terrace, Islington, Middlesex "Solicitors Clerk" (Emma's death certificate) (house occupied by a pianoforte maker in 1871) December 5 1868 3 Markfield Terrace, Tottenham, Edmonton, Middlesex "Solicitor's Clerk" (Ann Jane's death certificate) (3 Markfield Terrace was unoccupied at the 1871 census) Note - Markfield is one street from Denton Place where they lived at the 1851 census. December 9, 1868 3 Markfield Terrace Tottenham, Edmonton, Middlesex "Solicitors clerk" - death certificate of Catherine Ada Austin At the 1871 census his daughter Florence, 9, was living with her Aunt Catherine (Pollard) Wray in Streatham, Surrey April 7, 1872 107 Essex Road, Islington, Middlesex His death certificate "Solicitor's Clerk" (Frederick Brett, hairdresser, 54, was living here at the 1871 census) Many thanks! Jason HILARY BLANFORD wrote: >Jason >You don't help us to help you by not giving the names of John's parents. Family Search has the 1824 baptism of a John William Martin son of John and Ann at St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey. If that is not him - > >See West Surrey FHS site for details of their pre 1837 birth and marriage CDs not included in the IGI. > >See FamilySearch site/ Library/ Catalog/ Place search to see what they have for Bermondsey > >See TNA site for non conformist births and down loadable images from Dr Williams Library and other non conformist chapels > >Hilary > > Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:59:17 -0700 >From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca> >Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records >To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <4ACA9665.7080904@shaw.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >Seconding Paul's applause for Ancestry's latest offerings with the >London parish records but I STILL can't find my elusive John Austin, >supposedly born in Bermondsey in 1822 ....! That man is going to >have a lot to answer for when I finally meet him ..... lol > >Can anyone advise me what to try now? The 1851 census says he was born >in Bermondsey, and he was buried in Abney Park so by his death at least >he was a dissenter. If his parents were dissenters was there a baptism >or other ritual that may have been recorded? > >Thanks > >Jason > > Message: 8 >Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:58:08 +1300 >From: "John Scott" <jaydeescott@xtra.co.nz> >Subject: Re: [SRY] ancestry new records >To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> >Message-ID: <1BF1A741D5A343E6B677697D5D73B5B8@Daphne1> >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > >Have you thought of Maze Pond Chapel, just by Guys Hospital. >Daphne. > >*************************************** >Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > >List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

******Not for List Discussion, Please************ When using any public message board, mailing list, or forum, it is always a good idea to keep in mind that messages can be read by absolutely anyone who is so minded. This is even true of so-called closed Lists and Forums. Rootsweb's Community Guidelines are designed to safeguard users and the community at large. The most important thing to remember is not to post anything that is uniquely identifiable to any living individual. We must always bear in mind that however well intentioned the enquirer and helpers may be, the individual who is being sought may not actually wish their whereabouts known. We are not in a position to judge. There are other reasons too, of course, not least in this day and age is the fact that personal information about the living may compromise the personal security of others, or yourself. So, in summary, it is perfectly acceptable to ask how one might go about finding a living individuals ( nameless) to further one's research, and it is absolutely fine to reply giving general guidance and help. On the other hand it is not acceptable to reply giving information that will identify a living person's whereabouts, or other personal information that they may not want made public. If ever in any doubt about anything you wish to post to the List, you are always welcome to run it by me off list beforehand and I'll be happy to help. Ann Surrey Admin

Hello, As a new member of the list I am researching my BREW family connections. Am hoping someone can help with two entries which I have obtained from both the 1841 and 1851 census transcripts. In both my BREW ancestors, including husband wife and son have Army connections. In particular the husband is listed with the occupation of " Mayor Spanish Servicer". I would love to find out what this Army connection was, I do wonder if the word "Mayor" should in fact read " Major", but if anyone can assist in any way or give me another link to follow up I would be most grateful. Possible conection with the Middlesex Militia, but this is only a guess on my part. >From Brian Martin,Corby, Northants. _________________________________________________________________ Access your other email accounts and manage all your email from one place. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/