Hi Robyn My father's done a piece for the Barnes and Mortlake History Society newsletter which I'll copy and send separately - several A5 pages. But I'll quote a section for your immediate question. "The almshouses owe their origin to a meeting in Gerrard Street, Soho, on May 17 1836, of five master bootmakers who formed the "Master Boot and Shoe makers' Association for the Relief of Aged and Decayed Members, their Widows and Orphans". Those eligible to join were; "Every person having carried on for five successive years the boot and shoe business, as a bespoke master, wholesale manufacturer, agent or retail salesman, their widows and orphans". (Membership cost one guinea a year, or a life subscription of £10/10/-)." The buildings are known today as Rosemary Cottages, Rosemary Gardens, right by Mortlake Station. http://www.fbscharity.org.uk/history.php I need to fix my copier so it'll be done sometime today. Cheers Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robyn & Bill Arkinstall" <erindra@netspace.net.au> To: <Eng-Surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 9:30 AM Subject: [SRY] Mortlake Shoemaker's Asylum > Hi, > > I have just received a copy of a death certificate for a Jane NEATE aged > 73 years whose death on the 14/3/1857 took place at the Shoemakers > Asylum, Mortlake. Her occupation was listed as a Gentlewoman, and the > informant of the death details was a person from the Asylum. > > As English certificates are scant on imformation, I still don't know if > this lady was a relative or not. I had hoped she'd be living with or > have had a relative as the informant of her death details, but no such > luck. > In the 1841C she was living in St.Giles, Cripplegate Parish with > relatives, but I can't find her on the 1851C and this was the > Certificate that I found which could/may have fitted. > > Can anyone please give me further information on the Asylum, which when > I looked for it on the net, I found it listed as an Alms house type > accomodation? Would her husband have had to have been a shoemaker, for > her to go into this home? > > Any help much appreciated. Thank you in advance. > > Beat wishes.....Robyn Arkinstall. Central Coast, NSW, Australia > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Versailles Road shows on the London A-Z map, so yes, it still exists. David, are you aware that street re-numbering has sometimes taken place? Much of this happened, in London anyway, in the late 1930's, so, for example, no. 26? as was, might not be no. 26 now. A phone-call to the Borough Council Highways Dept (Southwark in this case, I think), should set your mind at rest. Rod. Cold and sunny in Notting Hill, West London. -----Original Message----- From: Richard M Brown <brownrichardm@yahoo.co.uk> To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 6:24 Subject: Re: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Google earth's street view shows Gipsy Hill, but not Versailles Road. Multi map is also worth a try - and it contains a birds eye view feature for much of Greater?London.? A great feature as you can look at a building from 4 angles.? Views taken on different days which can be amusing. ?Richard Brown Bromley Kent ________________________________ From: Seemark <Seemark@btopenworld.com> To: railton.david@btinternet.com; eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 11 October, 2009 17:14:28 Subject: Re: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Hi David - might even be worth searching google earth - won't show you what they used to look like but you should be able to see what they look like today. Cyndi in Leighton Buzzard, Beds UK So much to learn, so little time ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: David Railton ? To: ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com ? Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:22 PM ? Subject: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 ? Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without ? too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area? ? ? The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road. ? I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper ? Norwood. ? ? My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later ? from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped ? since then. ? ? Thank you in anticipation. ? ? David ? *************************************** ? Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. ? List Admin can be contacted at:? Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ? ? ? ------------------------------- ? To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:? Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Google earth's street view shows Gipsy Hill, but not Versailles Road. Multi map is also worth a try - and it contains a birds eye view feature for much of Greater London.  A great feature as you can look at a building from 4 angles.  Views taken on different days which can be amusing.  Richard Brown Bromley Kent ________________________________ From: Seemark <Seemark@btopenworld.com> To: railton.david@btinternet.com; eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 11 October, 2009 17:14:28 Subject: Re: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Hi David - might even be worth searching google earth - won't show you what they used to look like but you should be able to see what they look like today. Cyndi in Leighton Buzzard, Beds UK So much to learn, so little time   ----- Original Message -----   From: David Railton   To: ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com   Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:22 PM   Subject: [SRY] Photographs - SE19   Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without   too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area?     The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road.   I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper   Norwood.     My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later   from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped   since then.     Thank you in anticipation.     David   ***************************************   Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies.   List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com.       -------------------------------   To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com.   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Some excitement yesterday. My sister had ordered Alice BRABEN's birth cirtificate but wasn't sure if is was the right one but sent it on to me anyway. However I concluded that it was the the right one because her father (James William BRABEN) was a mariner which I knew and it states that on the cirt. She also told me that Edward was from Depthford KENT as she remembers mom and dad telling her they had visited his family there. They (our parents) were living in Kensington at the time. Her mother was Sarah A A. Alice BRABEN born 30 June 1869 St Olave, Horsleydown, SRY, Eng I do not know when she married, Edward DAVIS. Children were: Edward C 1890, Alice C 1892, Ellen C 1893, Mabel, (my father's favorite half sister, she died a tragic death and I remember as a teenager my folks getting that letter) Emily (Lil) C 1891. I met this one when we came to Canada in 1952. She spoiled me. Alice Mary also had two brothers one who died when he was a boy. I do not have the date of Edward DAVIS death. I do not have a marriage date for Alice and Edward. Frederick BRITNELL was her second husband but still don't have their marriage cirt or have any idea when they married. They had two children. William James born June Q 1904 Lambeth, George Henry BRITNELL (my father) 11 November 1907 Lambeth. I have a pic of him from his brother Bill's wedding in 1928. I never found Frederick on the 1881 but on the 1901 he is home with Alice and all the children including his son from his second wife. Alice was his third. The 1901 has ALL the children listed as BRITNELLs. The sad part to this is that my father told me there were 9 children in his family . I never found that ninth child. _________________________________________________________________ New! Get to Messenger faster: Sign-in here now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9677407

Hallo Dorri James would have been due to complete his apprenticeship in 1789 + 7, ie 1796. As an apprentice he should have been exempt from the press gangs, which operated until 1812, but once he turned 18 he may have been impressed if there was a 'hot press' order and this may explain why he ended up in the Royal Navy and did not finish his apprenticeship. Re birth of your 4gt grandmother -I'd keep an open mind on that one as I have found plenty of 'not trues' on that response and I think the question was often interpreted as 'were you born in this village/town/parish?' Lastly the migration of your family to Surrey. My lightermen b Bermondsey were working/living in Peckham. That puzzled me until I looked at a copy of the Godfrey 1871 map which showed the Surrey canal that was used to bring timber, and coal for the Peckham gas works. The canal ran from Surrey docks on the Thames down to Peckham. Your family may have taken a similar route, or gone down the River Wey or Mole and decided to settle out of town. Best wishes Hilary Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 23:26:17 +0100 > From: Dorri Roughley <dorri_roughley@hotmail.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [SRY] James Matthews 1774-1828 > To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Is anyone out there researching the Matthews > family and has a James > >> Matthews born 1774-1775 possible father Thomas? > >> > >> I believe that this James was apprenticed as a > Waterman/Lighterman on > >> 06/08/1789. For some reason he never completed his > apprenticeship. I > >> have trawlled through the Watermen and Lightermen > Company books=2C but no > >> reason is given why on any of the apprentice > records. > >> > >> My James ended up in the Royal Navy and had some > of his family in > >> Portsmouth. Between 1817 and 1828 he > moved/returned to the Rotherhithe > >> area with at least one son=2C one daughter and his > wife Mary. He became = > a > >> Waterman=2C I presume licenced by Trinty house=2C > as the Company books d= > o not > >> list him. Regretfully the Trinity House records > are incomplete. I have > >> loads of information on the son and daughter=2C > and I know when my 4gt > >> grandmother dies (1848)=2C but again I do not know > when she was born=2C > >> however from the 1841 census I know it is not > Surrey.

Hi David - might even be worth searching google earth - won't show you what they used to look like but you should be able to see what they look like today. Cyndi in Leighton Buzzard, Beds UK So much to learn, so little time ----- Original Message ----- From: David Railton To: ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:22 PM Subject: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area? The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road. I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper Norwood. My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped since then. Thank you in anticipation. David *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area? The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road. I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper Norwood. My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped since then. Thank you in anticipation. David

David, Can do - next week.  The houses are within 1½ miles of each other in the vicinity of Crystal Palace.  I think the houses still exist.  Richard  Brown Bromley Kent U.K. ________________________________ From: David Railton <railton.david@btinternet.com> To: ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 11 October, 2009 14:22:54 Subject: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area? The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road. I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper Norwood. My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped since then. Thank you in anticipation. David *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com.   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I shall be in that part of London at the end of November. In a hurry at the moment . Get back to me tomorrow am. Bye, Madeleine Berks ________________________________ From: David Railton <railton.david@btinternet.com> To: ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 11 October, 2009 14:22:54 Subject: [SRY] Photographs - SE19 Is there anyone on the list who lives in or near SE19 and who could, without too much trouble, take some photographs for me of properties in the area? The houses I am interested in are at 62, Gipsy Hill and 26, Versailles Road. I don't know the area but I have seen them both described as being in Upper Norwood. My wife's father lived at the former between 1912 and 1917 and at the later from 1917 to 1922. I am assuming that these roads have not been redeveloped since then. Thank you in anticipation. David *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

While the Docklands material index much of the apprenticeship records of this company, it is a very complicated archive at the Guildhall Library. Only a few of the series were indexed by Mr Cottrell. The catalogue can be looked at online at http://librarycatalogue.cityoflondon.gov.uk/www-bin/www_talis Enter LWA in a Classification search. Regards Cliff Webb Cliff Webb Director Rattner Mackenzie Limited A subsidiary of HCC Insurance Holdings, Inc. Mailto:cwebb@rmluk.com Tel: +44 20 7480 5511 This e-mail contains confidential information, and may contain privileged information, which is the property of the sender, and is intended solely for the attention and use of the addressee. If you are not the named addressee, you must not disclose, copy or retransmit this transmission or take any other action in reliance upon this transmission, and you should notify us as soon as possible. Rattner Mackenzie Limited is authorized and regulated by the Financial Services Authority / registered in England & Wales No.: 02303498, with registered office: Walsingham House, 35 Seething Lane, London EC3N 4AH. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________

Hi mary Anne Well Alice seems to be working in Putney as a servant in the 1891 census still single. She states she is born bermondsey which is near by I believe. 2. I have found a baptism for her in 1869 in Bermondsey which I shall send. Just in case. I have back tracked alice and this definitely seems to be her family, in 1871 they state born Horsleydown, but she seems to be baptised in bermondsey. Anyway it seems working in Putney is where she met Edward and they must have married sometime between then and the birth of their first child which narrows it down a tad. it is of course possible that she lied about being married to keep her job, I have heard of such instances on the various lists. There is also an Edward Davis living in Horsleydown in 1891 born Essex......might this be him, born essex I cannot find their marriage, perhaps they did not marry for some reason. I also cannot seem to find her in later censuses under Alice Davis, but you have not given us much to go on......like when she married her second husband, names of the children, when Edward died perhaps...... Will send the baptism & census data just in case. Cheers Pam from Adelaide Australia > > My nan, Alice Mary BRABEN born 1869 in St Olaf, Horsleydown and married > her first husband, Edward DAVIS. Their five children all born Putney. > Could sks look to see when she married Edward? It has not come up on > Freebmd and not on the IGI. The eldest child, Edward, was born 1891 if > that helps. > > > Thanks, Mary Anne Britnell. Calgary. Alberta > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > New: Messenger sign-in on the MSN homepage > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9677403 > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dorri, We have a virtual one name study for our worwoods who were lightermen, watermen and marine engineers, mariners etc. >From the information we gathered on many parts of this extended Worwood family, we have linked most of the London, Kent, Surrey etc Worwoods. The point I am getting to is that from our research we found that 1. The Lightermen Watermen seemed to be a close knit community and they apprenticed themselves within the family, or sometimes extended family such as wifes father in a few cases....... 2. So that being the case it is likely that the move to Surrey IF in conjunction with him becoming a waterman or in marine area might show a familial link of some sort. Sometimes coming in the back door and researching other family members, wifes family etc can show unexpected dividends. It seems you have gone a fair way in this already. My gut instinct given the above is their is a good possibility of Surrey links. 3. However, Mine seemed to move for numerous reasons......one lot ( HILLIERS married Worwoods) from Dorset (flax industry - ropes for vessels etc) & various other trades moved to London during the times when ship building etc was a source of good employment opportunities. They married into the Worwoods - so these reasons are likely. 4. It seems strange that you cannot find his apprenticeship, because to my knowledge these records are meticulously kept. The Docklands Website would tell you of the possibility of any missing records for the time frame you require. Perhaps an email. Cheers pam from Adelaide Australia Now knowing his age at death I should be able to eliminate a few more possibles. It has taken quite a few years to get to this point along with a lot of research into The Royal Navy and the Watermen and Lightermen Company Family legend has that one of our female ancestors was a powder monkey serving with her husband...pretty sure that this is Mary as I now have the names and occupations of all my mothers ancestors upto @1800 and women were on board some of the ships of that time. My James Matthews's son eventually became a master Lighterman and his daughter married a lighterman. I just wonder if they already had links in Surrey when they moved there.

Hello Hilary, The Lightermen and Watermen records have been filmed by the LDS. So you can order them and view them at a local family history centre. They seem to me to be meticulously kept, lovely handwriting. Trinty house did licence Watermen, only, but a lot of their records were lost, in a fire I believe. They had to be ex mariners. I do have one relative that described himself as a Lighterman on his wedding certificate...and I know he was not. However he had inherited a barge or two from his father and is listed in the barge owner's list of the company. I believe that you could only be on this list if you were a time served lighterman, or if you had inherited a barge from a member of the company. My 2gt grandmother is also on the barge owners list as she was left 2-3 vessels on the untimely death of her husband. >From what I have seen in the films the list produced by R.J. Cotteral is correct for the apprentice records. By law the company has a monopoly on trade/passenger traffic on a defined stretch of the Thames. I cannot remember where from and to. Barges did operate outside this limit, taking goods along the south coast and into the tidal inlets of other rivers. I have pictures of barges unloading at the mill at Battlesbridge in Essex, and these barges were unlikely to have been operated by members of the Watermen and Lightermen Company. Hope this helps, Dorri ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 20:31:06 +0000 > From: hilaryblanford@btinternet.com > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SRY] Thames Lightermen and Watermen Records > > > > Hallo > Is anyone familiar with the records for the Thames lightermen and watermen please? > > I have several members of my family (Ambrose/Ambross) who describe themselves as waterman, or more usually lighterman, in census returns, marriage certificates and baptism records. Recently I purchased the set of transcripts of apprentice bindings from Docklands, and although there are some Ambroses and Ambrosses listed, none of them matches any of mine. > > I had understood that these transcriptions were thought to be complete. Can anybody tell me if this is not the case, and if so, suggest some other specific references where I might look, either in Guildhall Library, SOG or elsewhere? > > Would they have been allowed to work on the river as lightermen if they were Freemen of the City because they held hereditary membership of another Guild? > > My 4xggfather was a mariner known to be in Bermondsey in 1805 - 1807, rising to become a chief mate and master. I have a copy of his widow’s application to Trinity House dated 1816. It is his grandsons, b 1827 and 1832, and his great grandsons I am looking at. > > Hilary > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Save time by using Hotmail to access your other email accounts. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/

<BC2612B86C094C349C4AAC813DC49997@GENHILLIER> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Pam=2C =20 Thank you for your ideas.=20 =20 Have spent quite a lot of time at Kew looking at the Navy Records in the pa= st. Sailors on Ships are now listed on the Archives site=2C not yet sure if= this exercise is completed yet. My problem is that James Matthews is a co= mmon name and I have been told that without a ship's name or your ancestor = was an officer you are looking for a needle in a very large haystack. Also= unless he ended up as a Greenwich pensioner the records do not list childr= en or marriage date=2C even there some years are better than others. I hav= e a relative that died in Greenwich=2C and the information for him leaves a= lot to be desired. =20 =20 =20 Now knowing his age at death I should be able to eliminate a few more possi= bles. It has taken quite a few years to get to this point=2C along with a = lot of research into The Royal Navy and the Watermen and Lightermen Company= . Family legend has that one of our female ancestors was a powder monkey= =2C serving with her husband...pretty sure that this is Mary=2C as I now ha= ve the names and occupations of all my mothers ancestors upto @1800=2C and = women were on board some of the ships of that time. =20 My James Matthews's son eventually became a master Lighterman=2C and his da= ughter married a lighterman. I just wonder if they already had links in Sur= rey when they moved there. =20 Shall carry on sifting through the evidence=2C =20 Best Wishes=2C =20 Dorri =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ---------------------------------------- > From: pamhillier24@virginbroadband.com.au > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri=2C 9 Oct 2009 18:54:59 +1030 > Subject: Re: [SRY] James Matthews 1774-1828 > > Hi Dorri=2C > Just a thought=2C but perhaps trying to get hold of his Royal Navy record= s > might shed some light on the father=2C or his place of birth. > I am have computer problems at the moment....I have been trying to get th= e > addies for you=2C but it's playing up > so a few ideas....before you go paying for them > 1. The national archives documents online website.....I have found seamen= s > lists etc and various documents of my sea going folk....three pound fifty= to > download. I found out many things on one of my seaman=2C including his da= te > and place of birth. > 2. British history online (again sorry hon I have to make you google...) = I > found snippets on another of my seamen that was in the Suez area during a > skirmish....details his illnesses and all sorts. > 3. But his records at a push should tell next of kin and birth date=2C pl= ace > etc..... > 4. There are also rootsweb lists.....I managed to get some lovely man on > there to translate my royal navy jargon that I found from documents onlin= e > and also tell me the history of the ships on which he served etc etc. > So just a few idea... > Happt hunting > Cheers Pam from Adelaide Australia > > >> >> Hello Folks=2C > >> >> Is anyone out there researching the Matthews family and has a James >> Matthews born 1774-1775 possible father Thomas? >> >> I believe that this James was apprenticed as a Waterman/Lighterman on >> 06/08/1789. For some reason he never completed his apprenticeship. I >> have trawlled through the Watermen and Lightermen Company books=2C but n= o >> reason is given why on any of the apprentice records. >> >> My James ended up in the Royal Navy and had some of his family in >> Portsmouth. Between 1817 and 1828 he moved/returned to the Rotherhithe >> area with at least one son=2C one daughter and his wife Mary. He became = a >> Waterman=2C I presume licenced by Trinty house=2C as the Company books d= o not >> list him. Regretfully the Trinity House records are incomplete. I have >> loads of information on the son and daughter=2C and I know when my 4gt >> grandmother dies (1848)=2C but again I do not know when she was born=2C >> however from the 1841 census I know it is not Surrey. > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** sup= erfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list=2C please send an email to ENG-SURREY-reques= t@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subjec= t and the body of the message =0A= _________________________________________________________________=0A= Save time by using Hotmail to access your other email accounts.=0A= http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/=

Hallo Is anyone familiar with the records for the Thames lightermen and watermen please? I have several members of my family (Ambrose/Ambross) who describe themselves as waterman, or more usually lighterman, in census returns, marriage certificates and baptism records. Recently I purchased the set of transcripts of apprentice bindings from Docklands, and although there are some Ambroses and Ambrosses listed, none of them matches any of mine. I had understood that these transcriptions were thought to be complete. Can anybody tell me if this is not the case, and if so, suggest some other specific references where I might look, either in Guildhall Library, SOG or elsewhere? Would they have been allowed to work on the river as lightermen if they were Freemen of the City because they held hereditary membership of another Guild? My 4xggfather was a mariner known to be in Bermondsey in 1805 - 1807, rising to become a chief mate and master. I have a copy of his widow’s application to Trinity House dated 1816. It is his grandsons, b 1827 and 1832, and his great grandsons I am looking at. Hilary

Hi Dorri, Just a thought, but perhaps trying to get hold of his Royal Navy records might shed some light on the father, or his place of birth. I am have computer problems at the moment....I have been trying to get the addies for you, but it's playing up so a few ideas....before you go paying for them 1. The national archives documents online website.....I have found seamens lists etc and various documents of my sea going folk....three pound fifty to download. I found out many things on one of my seaman, including his date and place of birth. 2. British history online (again sorry hon I have to make you google...) I found snippets on another of my seamen that was in the Suez area during a skirmish....details his illnesses and all sorts. 3. But his records at a push should tell next of kin and birth date, place etc..... 4. There are also rootsweb lists.....I managed to get some lovely man on there to translate my royal navy jargon that I found from documents online and also tell me the history of the ships on which he served etc etc. So just a few idea... Happt hunting Cheers Pam from Adelaide Australia > > Hello Folks, > > Is anyone out there researching the Matthews family and has a James > Matthews born 1774-1775 possible father Thomas? > > I believe that this James was apprenticed as a Waterman/Lighterman on > 06/08/1789. For some reason he never completed his apprenticeship. I > have trawlled through the Watermen and Lightermen Company books, but no > reason is given why on any of the apprentice records. > > My James ended up in the Royal Navy and had some of his family in > Portsmouth. Between 1817 and 1828 he moved/returned to the Rotherhithe > area with at least one son, one daughter and his wife Mary. He became a > Waterman, I presume licenced by Trinty house, as the Company books do not > list him. Regretfully the Trinity House records are incomplete. I have > loads of information on the son and daughter, and I know when my 4gt > grandmother dies (1848), but again I do not know when she was born, > however from the 1841 census I know it is not Surrey.

Late night/early morning Typo - so you can breath again Jason. Sorry about that Hilary .> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:40:05 -0700 > From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca> > Subject: Re: [SRY] Was Ancestry New Records  now > AUSTIN > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4ACCB655.3060709@shaw.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Thanks Hilary.  Bricklayers and builders did seem to > be interchangeable > descriptions at that time.    I'll follow this > line - but my man was an > Austin not a Martin.  Was that a typo? > > Regards > > Jason > > > HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > > >     Hallo Jason > >     I searched the new Ancestry > records for blank first name and > >     Mart*n Surname, father Richard > child born Bermondsey Surrey England. > >      > >     This produced Rachel daughter > of Richard and Rachal baptised Sep > >     3rd 1815. Father a bricklayer > living in Bermondsey Street, so he > >     could be the father of your > John.   Maybe he became a builder or > >     maybe John exaggerated his > father's status on his marriage > >     certificate to impress the in > laws. > >      > >     If you have access to the > records and search for Rachel you will > >     find 2 entries.  One is > in the printed baptismal > >     register register, the other > is in the 'rough register'.  If you > >     start with the latter you can > click back to the 1915 register at > >     the top of the entry from the > image view, find the list of > >     registers available and then > do a manual search forwards in case > >     your John is in there but was > missed from the transcription.  You > >     can also find these registers > from the Southwark listings.  The > >     'rough registers' tend to be > more accurate, and in the case of St > >     MM Bermondsey, they include > the date of birth in the register of > >     baptisms.  The date of > birth is not shown in the printed register > >     of baptisms. > >      > >     If you still can't find him it > may be worth looking at the > >     Bishop's Transcripts for 1820 > -1824 period - his birth appears to > >     be round 1822. > >      > >     You may have discovered this > already, but Saint Mary Magdalen at > >     Bermondsey does not have an e > on the end of Magdalen.  It is often > >     mis-spelt including in the > historic Ancestry records, so you may > >     need to use both spellings > when searching for your family. >       > >     Hilary

Dockland is very approachable and knowledgeable - you could ask them? Paul ________________________________ From: HILARY BLANFORD <hilaryblanford@btinternet.com> To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, October 9, 2009 1:31:06 PM Subject: [SRY] Thames Lightermen and Watermen Records Hallo Is anyone familiar with the records for the Thames lightermen and watermen please? I have several members of my family (Ambrose/Ambross) who describe themselves as waterman, or more usually lighterman, in census returns, marriage certificates and baptism records.  Recently I purchased the set of transcripts of apprentice bindings from Docklands, and although there are some Ambroses and Ambrosses listed, none of them matches any of mine. I had understood that these transcriptions were thought to be complete.  Can anybody tell me if this is not the case, and if so, suggest some other specific references where I might look, either in Guildhall Library, SOG or elsewhere? Would they have been allowed to work on the river as lightermen if they were Freemen of the City because they held hereditary membership of another Guild?  My 4xggfather was a mariner known to be in Bermondsey in 1805 - 1807, rising to become a chief mate and master.  I have a copy of his widow’s application to Trinity House dated 1816.  It is his grandsons, b 1827 and 1832, and his great grandsons I am looking at.  Hilary *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com.   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My nan, Alice Mary BRABEN born 1869 in St Olaf, Horsleydown and married her first husband, Edward DAVIS. Their five children all born Putney. Could sks look to see when she married Edward? It has not come up on Freebmd and not on the IGI. The eldest child, Edward, was born 1891 if that helps. Thanks, Mary Anne Britnell. Calgary. Alberta _________________________________________________________________ New: Messenger sign-in on the MSN homepage http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9677403

<SNT122-W62F664142DA26CD875FC9DCDD00@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi=2C =20 I traced one dentist across the country using telephone directories. Might= work for you. =20 Ancestry have these. =20 Dorri =20 =0A= _________________________________________________________________=0A= Save time by using Hotmail to access your other email accounts.=0A= http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/=