Fingers crossed that there is SKS with the 1871 census, who would do me a lookup for James Whiteman/Whitman b abt 1836 Woodend Oxfordshire. I'm wanting his spouses Christian name, and hoping it is Lydia abt 1836/40. Thank you for any replies. Keith

Still much, much quicker than ordering a certificate from an Australian state. NSW now takes 8 weeks for a family history certificate, QLD 3 weeks etc. I can order a certificate from England and have it reach Australia many weeks sooner and for much cheaper than ordering an Australian certificate. Ann -----Original Message----- From: eng-surrey-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-surrey-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of eng-surrey-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 22 November 2009 8:30 PM To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Subject: ENG-SURREY Digest, Vol 4, Issue 334 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.77/2520 - Release Date: 11/22/09 19:40:00

Hi again Keith I have searched for Whiteman/Whitman in all counties separately for both Lydia & James (dob1836+/-5 yrs) he born Woodend she unknown without success. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "D & K Skudder" <skudd@xtra.co.nz> To: <Eng-Surrey-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:23 AM Subject: [SRY] 1871 Lookup > Fingers crossed that there is SKS with the 1871 census, who would do me a > lookup for James Whiteman/Whitman b abt 1836 Woodend Oxfordshire. I'm > wanting his spouses Christian name, and hoping it is Lydia abt 1836/40. > Thank you for any replies. Keith > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Keith Found this fellow however wife not Lydia. Do you know what county you would expect to find him in. Aunne Runaway Bay QLD Aus Name: James Whitman Age: 33 Estimated birth year: abt 1838 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Ann Gender: Male Where born: Woodcot, Oxfordshire, England Civil parish: Kingston On Thames Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Town: Kingston County/Island: Surrey Country: England Registration district: Kingston Sub-registration district: Kingston ED, institution, or vessel: 15 Household schedule number: 225 Household Members: Name Age James Whitman 33 Ann Whitman 33 Harriet Whitman 7 Georgina Whitman 6 Mary Whitman 2 Francis Woodcock 43 Frederick Barnsley 23 Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 860; Folio: 91; Page: 46; GSU roll: 827764.

Hello from New Zealand How do I go about finding whose household Eliza Ann PRESTON was employed / living in please?? She has been missing from the family since 1898 and we would dearly love to have her home for Christmas.... Kind regards from Maree S. Gordon, Konini Place, Matamata, New Zealand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1911 census Croydon, Surrey Last name : PRESTON First name : Eliza Middle name:Ann Year of Birth : 1871 Sex: Female Marriage condition :UNMARRIED Birth place : Bethnal Green Place of residence : Croydon Occupation : Servant Relationship to Head of Household: Servant

Hi Patrick This is what the GRO "reference checking" button is for. They will still charge you a search fee of 3 GBP, but will refund the other 4 if the checking point does not match. Don't order both, though. Order the most likely (or toss a coin if necessary). That way you *may* get the certificate you want and only spend 7 quid. If you order both, it will cost you 10 if one is right and the other wrong, or 6 if neither is right. The only flaw in this is that both individuals may have had a father called Joseph! HTH Caroline > The question is which marriage is the correct one ? As I see > it, > the only way that I can be sure is to order both marriage certificates. > The name of the groom's father, Joseph Holland, will be on the correct > one. It 's a pity that I can 't ask the GRO to look at both > certificates and only send me the one where the father 's name of the > groom, is given as Joseph Holland. Do think that they would do that ? >

Daphne I'm not quite clear what you are trying to achieve here. Who is it you are looking for ie is it Alfred or Louisa who is the known person in your tree, and are you looking for ancestors or descendants? Do you have any other knowledge that leads you to believe that someone baptised in rural Surrey should be found in metropolitan Surrey? And what do you mean by 'check out' the Southwark household? If you have found a specific entry it would be helpful to have the exact census reference so that other listers do not have to spend time constructing a search to find Alfred. Have you seen his original baptism entry to see if his date of birth is given? If you can be a little more specific it would help us to help you Hilary > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:07:54 -0000 > From: "Daphne Harvey" <daphneh711@talktalk.net> > Subject: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS - 1851 > To: "surrey lists family-hist-soc" <ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <D4645D0E5C674070ACB8AF8E996A03D8@daphnePC> > Content-Type: text/plain;    > charset="iso-8859-1" > > ALFRED HARRIS was baptised in Ewell Sry in 1844.  > Parents ALFRED and LOUISA.  No civil > registration.   I cannot find young Alfred on > the 1851 census but there is a LOUISA born Rotherhithe > 1828  married to an ALFRED and living in > Southwark.  I think she is too young to be the Louisa I > am after but I cannot find any other.  Maybe she died, > but there are at least fourteen deaths of a Louisa Harris > around London between 1844 and 1851.  And there are a > lot of Alfreds with wives with other names. > > Could some kind person check out the Southwark household > for me, if only to put me back to square one.  Any > suggestions of routes to explore would be most gratefully > received. > Daphne

Hi Daphne, Thre are a lot of possiblities here as regards Alfred HARRIS.  First of all, are you sure he didn't die before the 1851 census?  I assume not, because you are looking for him as a married man. Second, did the family stay in Ewell until the 1851 census?  You can search for Alfred, stating Ewell, or Surrey as a keyword, on some sites.  I use "The Genealogist" rather than Ancestry for searches - my interests before 1905 are mainly in the UK.  On The Genealogist, there are 8 hits for Alfred Harris from Surrey in the 1851 census, including two five year olds - close enough for an 1844 birth.  Ages stated in early censuses could be out by 3 to 6 years!   You can search the records for free to get a list of hits, then subscribe for the details.  This links to their site http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/    You can choose the types of subscription which suit you - monthly, or pay as you go.  I started off with the latter, to see if the site suited and without a huge cash outlay  The following links to the subscriptions page http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/nameindex/products.php Third.  The LDS site has a rather nice search facility on test, and you will find 40 matches for Alfred Harris in year range 1844 - 1900.  Use this link for it.  http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=home Fourth, I ran an advanced search on Yahoo with the terms  Southwark, OR ewell and the exact phrase "Alfred Harris"  Lots of UK hits. I explored marriage under concepts (these appear in a blue band at the top of the page) and found interesting hits in the Jewish Chronicle.  Was Alfred a Jew, or with Jewish connections? Lastly, those who subscribe to providers need to be very careful in helping others - as third party help can breach the terms of the subscription, and if caught our, we can loose our membership.  I think this message has been spelt out elsewhere in the Roots posts.  So, pay as you go, or a free trial to a provider is a good compromise.  Alternativey, if you have access to a libarry with internet, you mat find they have a subscription to Ancestry which allows users to search the BMD and census records on the site for free. I hope this helps Richard Brown Bromley, Kent U.K. ----------------------------- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:07:54 -0000 From: "Daphne Harvey" <daphneh711@talktalk.net> Subject: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS - 1851 ALFRED HARRIS was baptised in Ewell Sry in 1844.  Parents ALFRED and LOUISA.  No civil registration.  I cannot find young Alfred on the 1851 census but there is a LOUISA born Rotherhithe 1828  married to an ALFRED and living in Southwark.  I think she is too young to be the Louisa I am after but I cannot find any other.  Maybe she died, but there are at least fourteen deaths of a Louisa Harris around London between 1844 and 1851.  And there are a lot of Alfreds with wives with other names. Could some kind person check out the Southwark household for me, if only to put me back to square one.  Any suggestions of routes to explore would be most gratefully received. Daphne

This is the only James Whitman/Whiteman I could find in the England & Wales Census 1871. He is too old, but he is publican of the Windmill so you could find details about him in the applications for his licence. Why are you so certain about his age? Could he have married twice? Hilary Reference details Census 1871 TNA Ref RG10-0806 Image No 201 Folio No 99 Page No 5 Location details County Surrey Superintendent Registrar's District CHERTSEY Registrar's Sub-District CHOBHAM Enumeration District No 7 Civil Parish WINDLESHAM City or Municipal Borough Municipal Ward Parliamentary Borough Town Village or Hamlet WINDLESHAM Local Board Ecclesiastical District Schedule No 20 Street WINDMILL [This is not correct - the Windmill was the name of his pub] First name JAMES Last name WHITMAN Title Misc Relation Head Age 60 Sex M Born Oxfordshire Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:23:58 +1300 > From: "D & K Skudder" <skudd@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: [SRY] 1871 Lookup > To: <Eng-Surrey-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: > <98D82F4A16564D1390D4328341F81B06@the15684f5a371> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Fingers crossed that there is SKS with the 1871 census, who > would do me a > lookup for James Whiteman/Whitman b abt 1836 Woodend > Oxfordshire. I'm > wanting his spouses Christian name, and hoping it is Lydia > abt 1836/40. > Thank you for any replies.  Keith > >

Found these on FreeBMD both with spouse Lydia, Marriages Sep 1866 (>99%) ------------------------------ WHITEMAN James Ampthill<javascript:golink("/cgi/districts.pl?r=40359688&d=bmd_1257296200")> 3b 599 <javascript:gopage(1866,3,2,'3b','599',1)> <javascript:golink("/cgi/information.pl?r=40359688&d=bmd_1257296200")> [image: Scan available - click to view]<javascript:golink("http://www2.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?scan=1&r=40359688&d=bmd_1257296200")> ------------------------------ Marriages Sep 1869 (>99%) ------------------------------ WHITEMAN James Bicester<javascript:golink("/cgi/districts.pl?r=45281571&d=bmd_1257296200")> 3a 925 <javascript:gopage(1869,3,2,'3a','925',1)> <javascript:golink("/cgi/information.pl?r=45281571&d=bmd_1257296200")> [image: Scan available - click to view]<javascript:golink("http://www2.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?scan=1&r=45281571&d=bmd_1257296200")> Hope this helps Regards Yvonne Porton - Cardiff Uk On 23/11/2009, D & K Skudder <skudd@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > > Fingers crossed that there is SKS with the 1871 census, who would do me a > lookup for James Whiteman/Whitman b abt 1836 Woodend Oxfordshire. I'm > wanting his spouses Christian name, and hoping it is Lydia abt 1836/40. > Thank you for any replies. Keith > *************************************** >

I think you will find that in four days time they will *mail* the certificate to you - it will take at least a week, if not longer, to get to Australia! (I speak from experience...) Anne South Australia patrick holland wrote: > Hi Hilary, > > Thanks for your email and your comments. I 've bitten the bullet and > ordered a marriage certificate for one of the 5 daughters of Joseph > Holland. I got the GRO details from FreeBDM. According to them, in 4 > days time, I will should the certificate from England. If its the > correct one, I 'll get some useful information from it which will help > me find certificates for the other 4 sisters and 5 brothers. > > Thanks. > > Patrick. >

Hi Maree I take it you have purchased the 1911 census image, and that contains just the one person? (presumably the head of household gave your Eliza a separate schedule, he should have entered her on his) If so there is another form which you should be able to download in addition to the paid page, its the RG78 which lists each head of household and presumably your head of household If you obtained the information some other way you need to buy the page image Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > Hello from New Zealand > > How do I go about finding whose household Eliza Ann PRESTON was employed / > living in please?? > > She has been missing from the family since 1898 and we would dearly love > to have her home for Christmas.... > > Kind regards from Maree S. Gordon, Konini Place, Matamata, New Zealand > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 1911 census Croydon, Surrey > Last name : PRESTON > First name : Eliza > Middle name:Ann > Year of Birth : 1871 > Sex: Female > Marriage condition :UNMARRIED > Birth place : Bethnal Green > Place of residence : Croydon > Occupation : Servant > Relationship to Head of Household: Servant

Hi Maree You need to invest in a few credits and download the household transcription or (if you are feeling flush) the image of the actual schedule. Please do not ask someone to "look up" this information for you, as to do so is strictly against the terms and conditions of findmypast (who have the rights to the 1911 census) and could result in the "helpful" person losing their own access. Best wishes Caroline > > > Hello from New Zealand > > How do I go about finding whose household Eliza Ann PRESTON was > employed / living in please?? > > She has been missing from the family since 1898 and we would dearly > love to have her home for Christmas.... > > Kind regards from Maree S. Gordon, Konini Place, Matamata, New Zealand > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > 1911 census Croydon, Surrey > > Last name : PRESTON > > First name : Eliza > > Middle name:Ann > > Year of Birth : 1871 > > Sex: Female > > Marriage condition :UNMARRIED > > Birth place : Bethnal Green > > Place of residence : Croydon > > Occupation : Servant > > Relationship to Head of Household: Servant > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Hi JK, Thanks for your email and interesting comments about your own experiences when you registered the birth of your 2 sons who were born 22 months apart and in different places. . It sounds as if you were lucky to find a sensible civil servant who waived the fine. Thanks. Patrick. J K gen wrote: > It is and was perfectly possibly to register the birth of a child much later > on. One had to pay a fine - or lie! A not infrequent occurrence, so the > birth certificate may be accurate - or it may not! In which case there could > appear to be a baptism before a birth. Such anomolies do occur though not > common. > > My eldest was registered in the same quarter as my youngest - they were born > 22 months apart in different places. We had to travel some miles from one to > the other. (Such events had to be registered in the Registration District in > which they occurred.) I don't remember a fine, though there should have > been, we were not well off so I should have known about it! And no neither > was baptised. > > JK > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Anne Chambers <anne.chambers@bigpond.com>wrote: > > >> Ummm - the children could not have been baptised before they were born, >> they actually had to be at the church >> or at home if it was a private baptism for some reason. >> >> The birth would have been registered in the *quarter* in which they were >> born; if Joseph William was >> registered in Sept 1901, that quarter covered July August and September >> births. In this case, the parents >> obviously registered him too late to get into the June quarter's register. >> >> The GRO index references just indicate the quarter and you need to order >> using the GRO reference, whatever the >> census or baptism entry says. The birth certificate will have the actual >> date of birth on it; sometimes the >> baptism entry does, sometimes it doesn't - it all depends on the vicar. >> >> To get Joeph William's certificate you must use >> >> Births Sep 1901 >> Holland Joseph William Lambeth 1d 348 >> >> Anne >> South Australia >> >> >> >> patrick holland wrote: >> >>> Hi Anne, >>> >>> Thanks for the Baptism information. The family of Joseph Holland and >>> Bridget Holland ( nee Sharkey) is the correct one but, except for, >>> Annie Elizabeth Holland, who was born in Ireland in Dec 1985, all the >>> other baptismal dates are for dates which are just before the dates when >>> the children were actually born. For Example, Joseph William was born >>> Sept. 1901, Eliza was born June 1897. Kathleen, Grace was born 1900, >>> Henry Michael was born March 1903. >>> >>> I need to sort out the correct order of the Cristian names because I >>> will need to know that before. I order any BDM certificated for them. >>> >>> Thanks Anne. >>> >>> Patrick >>> Perth, Western Australia. >>> >>> Anne Chambers wrote: >>> >>>> Possibly the sons were known by their second names and that is why the >>>> >> order was reversed on the census - if >> >>>> otherwise they match exactly, I wouldn't worry too much. >>>> >>>> Have you checked to see if there are any baptisms on Ancestry ? There >>>> >> is this one which I presume is the >> >>>> correct family >>>> Joseph William Holland Baptism 16 Jun 1901 Joseph >>>> >> Holland, Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >>>> It would, no doubt, have been confusing to have two Josephs (father& >>>> >> son) in the same family >> >>>> These are probably theirs as well >>>> Eliza Holland Baptism 14 Apr 1897 Joseph >>>> >> Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >>>> Annie Elizabeth Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph >>>> >> Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >>>> Kathleen Grace Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph >>>> >> Holland, >> >>>> Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >>>> >>>> Henry Michael Holland Baptism 18 Feb 1903 Joseph >>>> >> Holland, >> >>>> Bridget Holland Saint Mary The Less Lambeth >>>> >>>> Who knows why our ancestors did what they did ! >>>> >>>> Anne >>>> South Australia >>>> >>>> patrick holland wrote: >>>> >>>> >> *************************************** >> Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** >> superfluous old messages in replies. >> >> List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi Hilary, Thanks for your email and your comments. I 've bitten the bullet and ordered a marriage certificate for one of the 5 daughters of Joseph Holland. I got the GRO details from FreeBDM. According to them, in 4 days time, I will should the certificate from England. If its the correct one, I 'll get some useful information from it which will help me find certificates for the other 4 sisters and 5 brothers. Thanks. Patrick. HILARY BLANFORD wrote: > Hallo Patrick > No, you do not need to have the 'correct' order of first names before ordering certificates. If you order from the www.gro.gov.uk, and there are direct links to this site from FreeBMD and TNA sites, you will find when you get to about page 3 or 4 of the ordering process that there are 'checking options'. Here you can specify parents' names, either one or both parents, and you can include other criteria. If you have a choice of references then you have to pay £4.00 to look at the second ref if the first does not meet your requirement, and so on. In your case I believe you have a single reference per child. If the checking points on the certificate do not match your criteria you will be charged £4.00 and will not receive a certificate. > > Why not try out the process? You have to register on the site before using it, but this is free. You can always cancel the order before submitting it if you decide you are not happy with what you have done. > > The GRO site is the cheapest and quickest way of ordering certificates -£7.50 for standard UK postage. Megabucks if you are so impatient you want it emailed to you!! > > Changing the order of children's names was common. However, sometimes it indicates that child number one died, and the parents used the same names in reverse order for child number two. > > Hilary > >

ALFRED HARRIS was baptised in Ewell Sry in 1844. Parents ALFRED and LOUISA. No civil registration. I cannot find young Alfred on the 1851 census but there is a LOUISA born Rotherhithe 1828 married to an ALFRED and living in Southwark. I think she is too young to be the Louisa I am after but I cannot find any other. Maybe she died, but there are at least fourteen deaths of a Louisa Harris around London between 1844 and 1851. And there are a lot of Alfreds with wives with other names. Could some kind person check out the Southwark household for me, if only to put me back to square one. Any suggestions of routes to explore would be most gratefully received. Daphne

I think this was fairly common, I've come across it a number of times. In many cases it's where the father and son share a name (e.g. I have a John Brock whose son was baptised John Joseph Brock but appears on censuses as Joseph John Brock or Joseph J Brock in several cases until his father's death). In other cases it's clearly where the second forename is the one that was used day-to-day (so for example F Scott Fitzgerald might have appeared on a census as Scott F Fitzgerald - if he'd been English!). Bob > > I have looked at the 1911 census for Joseph Holland who lived in Lambeth > at the time he completed the census and found that the order of the > Christian names he gives for his 5 sons on the census, is reversed on > Free BDM. I searched Free BDM under both Lambeth or Surrey and found the > same reversal exists in both Lambeth and Surrey.

Ummm - the children could not have been baptised before they were born, they actually had to be at the church or at home if it was a private baptism for some reason. The birth would have been registered in the *quarter* in which they were born; if Joseph William was registered in Sept 1901, that quarter covered July August and September births. In this case, the parents obviously registered him too late to get into the June quarter's register. The GRO index references just indicate the quarter and you need to order using the GRO reference, whatever the census or baptism entry says. The birth certificate will have the actual date of birth on it; sometimes the baptism entry does, sometimes it doesn't - it all depends on the vicar. To get Joeph William's certificate you must use Births Sep 1901 Holland Joseph William Lambeth 1d 348 Anne South Australia patrick holland wrote: > Hi Anne, > > Thanks for the Baptism information. The family of Joseph Holland and > Bridget Holland ( nee Sharkey) is the correct one but, except for, > Annie Elizabeth Holland, who was born in Ireland in Dec 1985, all the > other baptismal dates are for dates which are just before the dates when > the children were actually born. For Example, Joseph William was born > Sept. 1901, Eliza was born June 1897. Kathleen, Grace was born 1900, > Henry Michael was born March 1903. > > I need to sort out the correct order of the Cristian names because I > will need to know that before. I order any BDM certificated for them. > > Thanks Anne. > > Patrick > Perth, Western Australia. > > Anne Chambers wrote: >> Possibly the sons were known by their second names and that is why the order was reversed on the census - if >> otherwise they match exactly, I wouldn't worry too much. >> >> Have you checked to see if there are any baptisms on Ancestry ? There is this one which I presume is the >> correct family >> Joseph William Holland Baptism 16 Jun 1901 Joseph Holland, Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >> It would, no doubt, have been confusing to have two Josephs (father& son) in the same family >> >> These are probably theirs as well >> Eliza Holland Baptism 14 Apr 1897 Joseph Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >> Annie Elizabeth Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >> Kathleen Grace Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph Holland, >> Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth >> >> Henry Michael Holland Baptism 18 Feb 1903 Joseph Holland, >> Bridget Holland Saint Mary The Less Lambeth >> >> Who knows why our ancestors did what they did ! >> >> Anne >> South Australia >> >> patrick holland wrote: >> >

Hallo Patrick No, you do not need to have the 'correct' order of first names before ordering certificates. If you order from the www.gro.gov.uk, and there are direct links to this site from FreeBMD and TNA sites, you will find when you get to about page 3 or 4 of the ordering process that there are 'checking options'. Here you can specify parents' names, either one or both parents, and you can include other criteria. If you have a choice of references then you have to pay £4.00 to look at the second ref if the first does not meet your requirement, and so on. In your case I believe you have a single reference per child. If the checking points on the certificate do not match your criteria you will be charged £4.00 and will not receive a certificate. Why not try out the process? You have to register on the site before using it, but this is free. You can always cancel the order before submitting it if you decide you are not happy with what you have done. The GRO site is the cheapest and quickest way of ordering certificates -£7.50 for standard UK postage. Megabucks if you are so impatient you want it emailed to you!! Changing the order of children's names was common. However, sometimes it indicates that child number one died, and the parents used the same names in reverse order for child number two. Hilary > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:13:36 +0900 > From: patrick holland <lambeth@tadaust.org.au> > Subject: Re: [SRY] Anomaly between 19911 census entry and > Free BDM. > To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4B07E780.9050602@tadaust.org.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; > format=flowed > > Hi Anne, > > Thanks for the Baptism information. The family of  > Joseph Holland and > Bridget Holland ( nee Sharkey) is the correct one but, > except for,  > Annie Elizabeth Holland, who was born in Ireland in Dec > 1985,  all the > other baptismal dates are for dates which are just before > the dates when > the children were actually born.  For  Example, > Joseph William was born > Sept. 1901, Eliza was born June 1897.  Kathleen, Grace > was born  1900, > Henry Michael was born March 1903. > > I need to sort out the correct order of  the Cristian > names because I > will need to know that before. I order any BDM certificated > for them. > > Thanks Anne. > > Patrick > Perth, Western Australia. > > Anne Chambers wrote: > > Possibly the sons were known by their second names and > that is why the order was reversed on the census - if > > otherwise they match exactly, I wouldn't worry too > much. > > > > Have you checked to see if there are any baptisms on > Ancestry ?  There is this one which I presume is the > > correct family > > Joseph William Holland      > Baptism      16 Jun 1901  >     Joseph Holland, Bridget Holland >     Saint Mary At Lambeth     > Lambeth > > > > It would, no doubt, have been confusing to have two > Josephs (father & son) in the same family > > > > These are probably theirs as well > > Eliza Holland      Baptism  >     14 Apr 1897      > Joseph Holland,Bridget Holland     Saint Mary > At Lambeth     Lambeth     > > > > Annie Elizabeth Holland     Baptism >     11 Oct 1899     Joseph > Holland,Bridget Holland     Saint Mary At > Lambeth     Lambeth     > > > > Kathleen Grace Holland     Baptism >     11 Oct 1899     Joseph > Holland, > > Bridget Holland     Saint Mary At > Lambeth     Lambeth     > > > > Henry Michael Holland     Baptism >     18 Feb 1903     Joseph > Holland, > > Bridget Holland     Saint Mary The Less >     Lambeth > > > > Who knows why our ancestors did what they did ! > > > > Anne > > South Australia > > > > patrick holland wrote: > >    > >> Hello, > >> > >> I have looked at the 1911 census for Joseph > Holland who lived in Lambeth at the time he completed the > >> census and found that the order of the Christian > names he gives for  his 5 sons on the census, is > reversed > >> on Free BDM. I searched Free BDM under both > Lambeth or Surrey and found the same reversal exists in > both > >> Lambeth and Surrey. > >> > >> However, .the order of the Christian names of his > 5 daughters, as given on the 1901 census, is  the same > on > >> both the 1911 census. and Free BDM The 5 sons were > all born after the 1901 census so I only have them on > >> the 1911 census. > >> > >> For example, on the1911 census, signed by the > father, Joseph Holland, the name of the first son is > entered > >> as. William J Holland age 9 born in Lambeth. > Whereas on Free BDM , for both Lambeth and Surrey, there is > a > >> Joseph William Holland  born 1901 Sept. > Lambeth. 1d 348. As the dates of birth given on the Free BDM > agree > >> with the ages  given for each son on the 1911 > census.,  I assume that the Free BDM person , of the > same > >> birth date, and the 1911 person who fits that age, > are the same person, only the order of  the Christian > >> names, entered by the father, Joseph Holland, > differs with the order given on the Free BDM. > >> > >> Only 2 of the 5 daughters were born in,  > Lambeth, England ,  and  both their Christian name > order and ages > >> from the 1911 census and Free BDM are the same for > Lambeth and Surrey. . So only the reversal of the > >> Christian names of the 5 sons  is > problematical. > >> > >> Can anybody please explain this. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> Patrick Holland. >

It is and was perfectly possibly to register the birth of a child much later on. One had to pay a fine - or lie! A not infrequent occurrence, so the birth certificate may be accurate - or it may not! In which case there could appear to be a baptism before a birth. Such anomolies do occur though not common. My eldest was registered in the same quarter as my youngest - they were born 22 months apart in different places. We had to travel some miles from one to the other. (Such events had to be registered in the Registration District in which they occurred.) I don't remember a fine, though there should have been, we were not well off so I should have known about it! And no neither was baptised. JK On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Anne Chambers <anne.chambers@bigpond.com>wrote: > Ummm - the children could not have been baptised before they were born, > they actually had to be at the church > or at home if it was a private baptism for some reason. > > The birth would have been registered in the *quarter* in which they were > born; if Joseph William was > registered in Sept 1901, that quarter covered July August and September > births. In this case, the parents > obviously registered him too late to get into the June quarter's register. > > The GRO index references just indicate the quarter and you need to order > using the GRO reference, whatever the > census or baptism entry says. The birth certificate will have the actual > date of birth on it; sometimes the > baptism entry does, sometimes it doesn't - it all depends on the vicar. > > To get Joeph William's certificate you must use > > Births Sep 1901 > Holland Joseph William Lambeth 1d 348 > > Anne > South Australia > > > > patrick holland wrote: > > Hi Anne, > > > > Thanks for the Baptism information. The family of Joseph Holland and > > Bridget Holland ( nee Sharkey) is the correct one but, except for, > > Annie Elizabeth Holland, who was born in Ireland in Dec 1985, all the > > other baptismal dates are for dates which are just before the dates when > > the children were actually born. For Example, Joseph William was born > > Sept. 1901, Eliza was born June 1897. Kathleen, Grace was born 1900, > > Henry Michael was born March 1903. > > > > I need to sort out the correct order of the Cristian names because I > > will need to know that before. I order any BDM certificated for them. > > > > Thanks Anne. > > > > Patrick > > Perth, Western Australia. > > > > Anne Chambers wrote: > >> Possibly the sons were known by their second names and that is why the > order was reversed on the census - if > >> otherwise they match exactly, I wouldn't worry too much. > >> > >> Have you checked to see if there are any baptisms on Ancestry ? There > is this one which I presume is the > >> correct family > >> Joseph William Holland Baptism 16 Jun 1901 Joseph > Holland, Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth > >> > >> It would, no doubt, have been confusing to have two Josephs (father& > son) in the same family > >> > >> These are probably theirs as well > >> Eliza Holland Baptism 14 Apr 1897 Joseph > Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth > >> > >> Annie Elizabeth Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph > Holland,Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth > >> > >> Kathleen Grace Holland Baptism 11 Oct 1899 Joseph > Holland, > >> Bridget Holland Saint Mary At Lambeth Lambeth > >> > >> Henry Michael Holland Baptism 18 Feb 1903 Joseph > Holland, > >> Bridget Holland Saint Mary The Less Lambeth > >> > >> Who knows why our ancestors did what they did ! > >> > >> Anne > >> South Australia > >> > >> patrick holland wrote: > >> > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >