Hello, Hilary What a quantity of information and suggestions! I have seen the original entry in the Ewell parish register, and I did search back and forward for siblings - abt.5 years, I think. Father's occupation was "gardener" then. I was not savvy enough at that time to check further back for a Louisa. I have family notes written around 1880's verifying Charlotte as Alfred's wife, and and their children (up to that time) and where they were born, and I have their marriage cert. Alfred was a gardener and florest (in the old sense of raising flowers) all his life, and I am fairly certain he worked for a period at Kew Gardens, according to their records. This bears out the family legend, and lots of his detailed drawings of plants. I have researched Charlotte Pavey's family back about three generations, and they appeared in Kingston in 1801 when Lazarus Pavey married a Mary Oldis Boucher (hence, no doubt, the appearance of the middle name Belcher) I have not found a William Pavey in my records as part of my established family, but I could have missed him. You raised an interesting point. Searching for Eleanor could be useful. I have not any info. on her. Well, I have plenty to work on - and with Christmas looming! To Anne Chambers - Yes I had noticed the other Harris family in Ewell Many thanks, Daphne

>From Jackson's Oxford Journal, Saturday, December 21, 1839; Issue 4521. MARRIED Dec. 17, at Carlshalton, Surrey, by the Rev. W. H. VERNON, Rector, Mr. John WEIGHT, jun. late of Lewknor, in this county, to Elizabeth, third daughter of Mr. John JEWELL, of Brighton.

Hallo Daphne Firstly, I assume you know that Alfred and Charlotte Amy are definitely ‘yours’ and that you have documentary evidence to support this.   Their marriage entry at All Saints Paddington gives him a florist and his father a coachman.  His father was not a witness so you cannot assume he was still alive just because the word deceased did not appear on the certificate.   The census entries for the couple in 71, 81 and 91 all give him as a gardener, or florist and gardener b 1845 Ewell, Surrey so he is a good match with Alfred, son of Alfred, baptised in Ewell in 1844.  You say you obtained the date of baptism from the parish register.  I found this baptism on FamilySearch, parents Alfred and Louisa, but have you actually seen the original register or an image or transcript of the page?  The register will give the occupation of Alfred Snr, and hopefully he will be a coachman, but people did change their occupations.  It might be worth your while putting the West Surrey FHS new birth index on your Christmas list!   I think I have found your Alfred jnr working at 43-44 Duke St in the parish of St James, Westminster in the 1861 census.  He had to get to London at some point to meet and marry Charlotte and Duke Street is not that far from Paddington.  He gives his place of birth as Wimbledon, and that is where he went to live after his marriage, although the birth places of his children show that he did move around in that corner of Surrey.  That Wimbledon link suggests to me that he lived in Wimbledon as a child or had younger siblings born there, and perhaps moved back to be near his family.  Several of my family gave their birth place incorrectly on the first census they were away from home, always naming a place for the reasons given above.  By the next census someone in their family has put them right and their birth place then matches that on the earlier census returns completed by their parents, and with other documentary evidence.    There is a Charlotte Pavey, aged 16 b Chelsea in the 1861 census, daughter of William Pavey, a florist employing 4 men.  May not be your Charlotte because she gives her birth as Kingston.  On the marriage register Charlotte is the daughter of John B[e]lcher Pavey a boot maker.  The 1841 census has a Charlotte aged 7 in Kingston with John B Pavey 35 shoemaker and John B Pavey 3.  The marriage witnesses were John B and Eleanor Pavey.  There was no Eleanor in the 1841 household so is she Charlotte’s sister-in-law or step mother or cousin?  And does the name Charlotte in the Pavey florist’s household suggest a link between William and John B Pavey Snr?  Perhaps Alfred worked for William.  The 1861 census also has John B Pavey b Surrey in the Royal Navy at sea and ports abroad.  He was married and on board the Neptune in Malta.   By the way, Alfred Harris did not marry Louisa in 1838, he married a Sophia – I checked the register entry.  I have not found him in the 1841 or 51 censuses and I wondered whether Louisa had gone home to her mother/sister/family to have her first child – on the assumption that Alfred was likely to be her first son and possibly also her first child.  It could be worth checking earlier Ewell baptisms for a Louisa.  The combination of no marriage recorded for the parents, no birth registration and missing in the 1841 and 1851 census makes me wonder whether Alfred Snr at least, was abroad or in the army at some time and his marriage and his son’s birth were registered in the army/ overseas registers.  There are also a good number of Alfred Harris entries in the non conformist registers that you can access via TNA site.   Have you also checked the variant Harriss as well as Harris? Suggest you consolidate and confirm this generation (Alfred and Charlotte) to obtain maximum links and then go backwards   Hilary  Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:26:24 +1030 From: Anne Chambers <anne.chambers@bigpond.com> Subject: Re: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS 1851 To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <4B0DB618.60305@bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed There's another HARRIS baptised in Ewell        Christening:       24 NOV 1844       Ewell, Surrey, England             Parents:        Father:      JAMES HARRIS     Family        Mother:      CAROLINE You might be able to establish a connection between James Harris & Alfred Harris snr. The Ewell PRs are at the Epsom and Ewell Local and Family History Centre St. Mary, Ewell      * Baptisms from about 1597 to 1915 http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesByTITLE_RTF/Epsom+and+Ewell+Local+and+Family+History+Centre?opendocument Since you have the date of baptism, you might be able to ask them for a look up to get Albert snr's occupation and the address where they lived at the time of baptism.  You might even get a birthdate which will prove once & for all whether this is indeed your Alfred - he was not necessarily an infant when he was baptised. https://online.surreycc.gov.uk/esuite/esuite.nsf/openOnlineForm?open&fcunid=223B26AB71CB423E80256FF80044E66F&aztitle=Library:+Ask+Us I think until you establish once and for all that the Ewell Alfred is indeed your Alfred, anything else is just surmise. Anne > > Daphne Harvey wrote: >> Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard >> >> First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in >> breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. >> Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions >> .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my >> object clear. Sorry. >> >> What I have is this:- >> birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, 1844 >> baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 Parents >> -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS >> No siblings in that parish register. >> marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred >> snr. still alive, apparently) >> >> I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to >> trace the lines back. >> >> ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred >> and Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I >> can make a connection. >> I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was >> no match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to >> an Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. >> An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a >> mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. >> >> The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up >> Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my >> lot seem very Chapel orientated. >> Again, many thanks, Daphne

>From The Pall Mall Gazette ( London, England ), Friday, November 15, 1867; Issue 863. MARRIAGE MILLER - MILLER At St. George's, Battersea, Mr. R. MILLER, of the Lawn, Battersea, to Charlotte, relict of Mr. W. J. MILLER, La Belle, Alliance - square, Ramsgate, 14th. inst.

There's another HARRIS baptised in Ewell Christening: 24 NOV 1844 Ewell, Surrey, England Parents: Father: JAMES HARRIS Family Mother: CAROLINE You might be able to establish a connection between James Harris & Alfred Harris snr. The Ewell PRs are at the Epsom and Ewell Local and Family History Centre St. Mary, Ewell * Baptisms from about 1597 to 1915 http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesByTITLE_RTF/Epsom+and+Ewell+Local+and+Family+History+Centre?opendocument Since you have the date of baptism, you might be able to ask them for a look up to get Albert snr's occupation and the address where they lived at the time of baptism. You might even get a birthdate which will prove once & for all whether this is indeed your Alfred - he was not necessarily an infant when he was baptised. https://online.surreycc.gov.uk/esuite/esuite.nsf/openOnlineForm?open&fcunid=223B26AB71CB423E80256FF80044E66F&aztitle=Library:+Ask+Us I think until you establish once and for all that the Ewell Alfred is indeed your Alfred, anything else is just surmise. Anne > > Daphne Harvey wrote: >> Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard >> >> First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in >> breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. >> Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions >> .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my >> object clear. Sorry. >> >> What I have is this:- >> birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, 1844 >> baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 Parents >> -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS >> No siblings in that parish register. >> marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred >> snr. still alive, apparently) >> >> I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to >> trace the lines back. >> >> ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred >> and Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I >> can make a connection. >> I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was >> no match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to >> an Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. >> An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a >> mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. >> >> The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up >> Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my >> lot seem very Chapel orientated. >> Again, many thanks, Daphne > >

This would appear to be a baptism from the Southwark family you mentioned Ann Martha Harris Baptism 30 Oct 1853 Alfred Harris, Louisa Harris Saint Saviour Southwark She's on the 1861 census 30 Emerson Street Southwark Alfred Harris 38 Lighterman b Shoreditch Louisa Harris 33 b Shoreditch Alfred Harris 13 b Middlesex City Charles Harris 9 b Southwark Ann Harris 7 b Southwark William Harris 5 b Southwark Elieze Harris 2 b Southwark (could be Eliza) Joseph Harris 6 Mo b Southwark Class: RG9; Piece: 315; Folio: 80; Page: 48 The Alfred is too young to be yours - but how sure are you that the entry in the diary is correct ? My great aunt's death was entered in the family bible by her sister, who actually lived with her and reported the death - but the date was out by three years. Bear in mind that the fact Alfred was baptised in Ewell does not necessarily mean he was born there. Have you sighted the actual register entry (not just the extracted entry on the IGI), which usually gives an address ? It will also give Alfred snr's occupation which might help to find him in the census. Anne South Australia Daphne Harvey wrote: > Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard > > First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. > Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions > .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my object clear. Sorry. > > What I have is this:- > birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, 1844 > baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 Parents -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS > No siblings in that parish register. > marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred snr. still alive, apparently) > > I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to trace the lines back. > > ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred and Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I can make a connection. > I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was no match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to an Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. > An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. > > The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my lot seem very Chapel orientated. > Again, many thanks, Daphne

I seem to remember a list of corrections published either on this list or the Middlesex one when the Ancestry/LMA database first came online - Ancestry is not noted for geographical correctness in its descriptions of databases (in the UK at least, I have no idea how accurate their US stuff is). In some cases, they didn't even get the name of the church correct, let alone the district. Anne Peter & Cheri Greenlaw wrote: > Thankyou Anne, Yes it looks like Tyer St. > Also can you tell me why Ancestry says that Lambeth was in Middlesex when > the Baptisim was in St Mary's ,Lambeth,Surrey. > Cheri > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anne Chambers"<anne.chambers@bigpond.com> > To:<eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: [SRY] Clements baptisim > > >> Looks like 49 *[g/y/z]*rs St >> >> It's slightly clearer on Emma Frances' baptism in 1855 - I think it's >> Tyers Street >> >> Anne >> South Australia

To all you helpful souls Yes!!! That Alfred Thomas Harris and his Louisa, not to mention son Alfred, fooled me when I started my search and keep getting in the way . An addition to previous message - I once searched all (?) the books of the indexes of names on the 1851 census for all of non metropolitan Surrey, without finding my three Harris's. That was one reason why I turned my sights towards London. Daphne

Hi Hilary, Thankyou .I have the 1871 census that states Eleanor [Ellen ] in the census was born in 1852 .I cant find her birth cert or Charles James birth cert.Maybe Eleanor and Harriet were just Baptised together. But now I have Ellen as Eleanor I will keep trying.And I will contact Ancestry to correct the spelling which I didn't pick up. Thankyou Cheri ----- Original Message ----- From: "HILARY BLANFORD" <hilaryblanford@btinternet.com> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [SRY] ENG-SURREY CLEMENTS Baptisms I'd go for 49 [.]yer St, but you could always buy the birth certificate. I found 8 children of James Thomas and Ann Clements > From: "Peter & Cheri Greenlaw" <pmgcmg@iinet.net.au> > Subject: [SRY] Clements baptisim > To: <ENG-SURREY-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <EEF26E9754F442E7AEFA43120B76168E@Home> > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > I wonder if someone may be able to look at a baptisim > on Ancestry for me please and see if they can see what the > abode address is . It is so faint I can't decifer what it > is.I think I have found another child of my gr Grandparents > James and Ann Clements. The baptisim is for 1854 St Mary , > Lambeth, Surrey, 5 Feb, Charles James , son of, I think > JamesThomas and Ann . Father a Tailor. but the address > is too faint. Thankyou. > Cheri Greenlaw > the address is too faint. > > Thankyou. Cheri Greenlaw > > > *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thankyou Anne, Yes it looks like Tyer St. Also can you tell me why Ancestry says that Lambeth was in Middlesex when the Baptisim was in St Mary's ,Lambeth,Surrey. Cheri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Chambers" <anne.chambers@bigpond.com> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [SRY] Clements baptisim > Looks like 49 *[g/y/z]*rs St > > It's slightly clearer on Emma Frances' baptism in 1855 - I think it's > Tyers Street > > Anne > South Australia > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks to Anne, Nivard & Hilary for all your suggestions, as a result of which I have now seen a plan of the site which clearly shows that all 4 houses are of similar size. I have to agree that they are far too grand to have been used just for 4 servants. I now have some more avenues to explore, Thanks again Robin.

If Daphne has a baptism register entry for her Alfred in 1844, then alas this is not her lot. The family you have found is Alfred Thomas HARRIS and Louisa Elizabeth (nee JOHNSON), whose children's baptisms are all in the Ancestry PR collection, with Alfred Jnr baptised in 1847. Sorry! Caroline > > Hi daphne thism might help you > > 1871 census > alfred 38 lighterman all born southwark london > louisa 33 > alfred 13 > charles 9 > ann 7 > william 5 > elise 2 > joeseph 6months > > Lynn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daphne Harvey" <daphneh711@talktalk.net> > To: "surrey lists family-hist-soc" <ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:27 PM > Subject: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS 1851 > > > > > > Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard > > > > First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in > > breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. > > Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the > suggestions > > .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my > object > > clear. Sorry. > > > > What I have is this:- > > birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March > 30, > > 1844 > > baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, > 1844 > > Parents -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS > > No siblings in that parish register. > > marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 > (Alfred > > snr. still alive, apparently) > > > > I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order > to > > trace the lines back. > > > > ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an > Alfred and > > Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I can > make > > a connection. > > I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There > was no > > match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to > an > > Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. > > An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but > a > > mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. > > > > The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up > > Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my > lot > > seem very Chapel orientated. > > Again, many thanks, Daphne > > > > *************************************** > > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > > superfluous old messages in replies. > > > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.82/2525 - Release Date: > 11/25/09 > 07:31:00 > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 522 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Hi daphne thism might help you 1871 census alfred 38 lighterman all born southwark london louisa 33 alfred 13 charles 9 ann 7 william 5 elise 2 joeseph 6months ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daphne Harvey" <daphneh711@talktalk.net> To: "surrey lists family-hist-soc" <ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS 1851 > > Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard > > First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in > breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. > Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions > .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my object > clear. Sorry. > > What I have is this:- > birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, > 1844 > baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 > Parents -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS > No siblings in that parish register. > marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred > snr. still alive, apparently) > > I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to > trace the lines back. > > ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred and > Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I can make > a connection. > I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was no > match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to an > Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. > An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a > mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. > > The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up > Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my lot > seem very Chapel orientated. > Again, many thanks, Daphne > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.82/2525 - Release Date: 11/25/09 07:31:00 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 522 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Hi daphne thism might help you 1871 census alfred 38 lighterman all born southwark london louisa 33 alfred 13 charles 9 ann 7 william 5 elise 2 joeseph 6months Living with scleroderma www.sclerodermasociety.co.uk -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 522 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Hi daphne thism might help you 1871 census alfred 38 lighterman all born southwark london louisa 33 alfred 13 charles 9 ann 7 william 5 elise 2 joeseph 6months Living with scleroderma www.sclerodermasociety.co.uk -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 522 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Interesting - in 1851 No 1 Widowed female fundholder, daughter & grandchildren + ladies maid, house maid & cook No 2 ditto + niece, footman , housemaid & cook No 3 EIC Office + family (son also EIC Office, nepotism alive & well) + cook, housemaid & nurse No 4 Unmarried female fundholder age 69 + Ladies maid, cook, housemaid & butler (not Owen Owen) (I would love four people to look after me!!) in 1871 No 1 - Edward S Dodd, Army Agent + family +cook & housemaid No 2 - James Wilkie, MA at Edinburgh University + family + Nurse, cook & housemaid No 3 - ?Nausiton? H Vertue Stockbroker + family + Nurse, cook & housemaid No 4 - Frederick Vansittart, Retired Cavalry Officer + wife + general servant. Not a butler in sight! I think you are right and the head of household is away - and I bet the PC and his wife were enjoying the change... Anne South Australia Nivard Ovington wrote: > Hi Robin > > It looks to me as if that was the home address and the head of household was away from home > > Owen OWEN as butler would almost certainly have lived on the premises where he was employed and he is not > enumerated as head of household but servant > > If the building that is on the site of Maids of Honour Row is the same one (and looks like it may be) its > an imposing place and to grand for servants alone, also at number 1 is a Barrister with servants > > The Police constable may have been sent there to guard number 2 while the owner was away perhaps > > I would look in other census years for the same address to see who lived there then, also check directories > to see if there is an entry for 3 Maids of Honour Row > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I'm new to this list and I'm hoping that someone with local knowledge of The Green area of Richmond can >> answer a couple of questions for me. >> >> >> >> I've found my ggGrandfather, Owen OWEN a butler, on the 1861 census living at 3 Maid of Honour Row. The >> rest of the household were all servants, a ladies maid, a house maid and a nurse maid. >> >> At the adjacent property, Heidigger House, was a civil engineer, his wife & daughter, a housemaid and a >> cook. Would I be right in thinking that 3 Maid of Honour Row was being used as servant's quarters for >> the employees of Heidigger House? >> >> >> >> Secondly, being the only male servant of the household, is it likely that the butler would have >> accompanied his employer on his travels? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> >> Robin >

Hi daphne thism might help you 1871 census alfred 38 lighterman all born southwark london louisa 33 alfred 13 charles 9 ann 7 william 5 elise 2 joeseph 6months Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daphne Harvey" <daphneh711@talktalk.net> To: "surrey lists family-hist-soc" <ENG-SURREY@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [SRY] ALFRED HARRIS 1851 > > Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard > > First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in > breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. > Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions > .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my object > clear. Sorry. > > What I have is this:- > birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, > 1844 > baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 > Parents -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS > No siblings in that parish register. > marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred > snr. still alive, apparently) > > I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to > trace the lines back. > > ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred and > Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I can make > a connection. > I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was no > match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to an > Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. > An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a > mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. > > The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up > Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my lot > seem very Chapel orientated. > Again, many thanks, Daphne > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.82/2525 - Release Date: 11/25/09 07:31:00 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 522 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Another possibility would be the barrister at No 1, who had a footman as well as other domestic staff. A household with a footman would be likely to have a butler, a household with only two housemaids and a cook (Heidigger House) less likely, IMO. The police constable living between the barrister & the butler intrigues me.... Anne South Australia Robin Morris wrote: > Hi, > > > > I'm new to this list and I'm hoping that someone with local knowledge of The Green area of Richmond can > answer a couple of questions for me. > > > > I've found my ggGrandfather, Owen OWEN a butler, on the 1861 census living at 3 Maid of Honour Row. The > rest of the household were all servants, a ladies maid, a house maid and a nurse maid. > > At the adjacent property, Heidigger House, was a civil engineer, his wife& daughter, a housemaid and a > cook. Would I be right in thinking that 3 Maid of Honour Row was being used as servant's quarters for the > employees of Heidigger House? > > > > Secondly, being the only male servant of the household, is it likely that the butler would have accompanied > his employer on his travels? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Robin > > Bookham.

Hello and thank you to Hilary and Richard First, apologies for asking for information that might put someone in breach of contract. It was thoughtless of me. Thank you, Richard, for all the bits of information and the suggestions .To Hilary, in aiming for brevity, I seem to have failed to make my object clear. Sorry. What I have is this:- birth of ALFRED HARRIS (from a page of a diary dated 1882) March 30, 1844 baptism (feom the original parish register) April 28, 1844 Parents -ALFRED and LOUISA HARRIS No siblings in that parish register. marriage of Alfred to Charlotte PAVEY, Paddington, Feb. 1865 (Alfred snr. still alive, apparently) I want information on ALFRED and LOUISA (and any siblings) in order to trace the lines back. ALFRED jnr.'s birth is not in BMDs. One marriage in BMDs of an Alfred and Louisa in London in 1838 is not going to be of any help unless I can make a connection. I searched the 1851 census on the Library Ancestry website. There was no match for Alfred born Ewell, and the only Louisa I found married to an Alfred was born in 1828, which seemed too late. An Alfred born 1842 was born in St. Pancras, had a father Alfred but a mother Elizabeth. This is when I began to wonder if Louisa had died. The whole thing has got thoroughly confusing. But I will follow up Richard's suggestions. Yes, HARRIS can have Jewish undertones but my lot seem very Chapel orientated. Again, many thanks, Daphne

Looks like 49 *[g/y/z]*rs St It's slightly clearer on Emma Frances' baptism in 1855 - I think it's Tyers Street Anne South Australia Peter & Cheri Greenlaw wrote: > I wonder if someone may be able to look at a baptisim on Ancestry for me please and see if they can see > what the abode address is . It is so faint I can't decifer what it is.I think I have found another child of > my gr Grandparents James and Ann Clements. The baptisim is for 1854 St Mary , Lambeth, Surrey, 5 Feb, > Charles James , son of, I think JamesThomas and Ann . Father a Tailor. but the address is too faint. > Thankyou. Cheri Greenlaw