I think Findmypast is correct in reading him as Charles HAMMERTON. Geoff Geoffrey Chew g.chew@rhul.ac.uk ________________________________ From: eng-surrey-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of Maureen Burton Sent: Thu 10.12.09 13:51 To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Subject: [SRY] 1901 Census Henry HILLS followup I have yet another question about Census Info. This time 1901 RG13 Piece 463 Folio 53 Page 13 Ada HILLS is the Grandaughter of Henry HILLS (on previous page) I cannot for the life of me read the information regarding the entry for Charles ??????? Nephew Age 18 Shop Assistant Worker Born Dover, Kent HELP!! Regards Mo

I have yet another question about Census Info. This time 1901 RG13 Piece 463 Folio 53 Page 13 Ada HILLS is the Grandaughter of Henry HILLS (on previous page) I cannot for the life of me read the information regarding the entry for Charles ??????? Nephew Age 18 Shop Assistant Worker Born Dover, Kent HELP!! Regards Mo -- Maureen Burton Member ESFHS

I have been told by the East Surrey FHS that Item M3 Index to Apprenticeship Regs. 1802-1843, 1811 Census, Croydon is no longer available. Is there some one out there holding this fiche that would be willing to sell or rent it to me or to do some look-up on the film? Bob

Hello Jan Thanks for that. I do know that Henry Junr is the son of Caroline WILLIS, but don't know if he is Henry's son. Henry Junr is not with them on the 1891 census, as I have just discovered. Again, thanks for the response. Regards Mo On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Jan MacKinven <janmack@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > St Saviour > > The answer to your second query is "son", which has been written over the > top of what looks like "brother". > > Cheers > Jan, New Zealand > > > Could someone please take a look at RG11 Piece 615 Folio 19 Page 32 for me. > > I am trying to decipher the Ecclesiastical District, which looks like St > Saviours but could be almost anything. > > Also I am having difficulty interpreting the relationship details of Henry > junr to the Head of Houshold Henry HILLS. > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Regards > > Mo > > > Maureen Burton > Member ESFHS > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.100/2554 - Release Date: 12/09/09 > 07:32:00 > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Maureen Burton Member ESFHS

Could someone please take a look at RG11 Piece 615 Folio 19 Page 32 for me. I am trying to decipher the Ecclesiastical District, which looks like St Saviours but could be almost anything. Also I am having difficulty interpreting the relationship details of Henry junr to the Head of Houshold Henry HILLS. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards Mo Maureen Burton Member ESFHS

Hi again, I found out the other day that two of my sought-after CERONIOs who lived in India took a ship to London, England -- the year 1830. Here is the entry: Departure Month & Day Aug Year 1830 Name of Ship Sir Thomas Munro Title or Rank Miss Passenger Surname Ceronio Origin Calcutta Destination London Source Calcutta Directory Edition 1831 also, Departure Month & Day Aug Year 1830 Name of Ship Sir Thomas Munro Title or Rank Miss Passenger Surname Ceronio Origin Calcutta Destination London Source Calcutta Directory Edition 1831 Is there any easily-obtained information source that might tell more of the CERONIOs, after they arrived? Was there a census, for instance, in 1831? Likely they would have left the area, but it is possible they did not. The names of mother and daughter who went, are: Catherine Amanda Chaters CERONIO and Eveline Catherine Jekyll CERONIO. I suspect a visit to see or stay with family? Any CHATERS there? Thanks! Vince Summers

Thanks for your interest Richard. I should have made it plain that Lucy never married and her children were illegitimate but I'm immensely grateful for all the guidance I receive Best wishes Carole  Carole Watts carole_watts@talk21.co.uk ________________________________ From: Richard M Brown <brownrichardm@yahoo.co.uk> To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 10 December, 2009 6:15:27 Subject: [SRY] Christmas wish LOVETT (carole_ watts) Carole, I tried to find the Lovett family on both Ancestry & The Genealogist - no luck. Have you tried FreeBMD or Ancestry for the Father's death?  I say this because it looks as if your Lucy may have remarried. What was her status in the 1871 and 1861 censuses?  If a widow in either of them, that will help you narrow down date of death of her husband. I hope these pointers help.  Richard Brown Bromley, Kent U.K. Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:37:55 +0000 (GMT) From: carole_ watts <carole_watts@talk21.com> Subject: [SRY] Christmas wish LOVETT 1881 census probably in Battersea but possibly Lambeth, please help me find Lucy LOVETT 29 seamstress born in Somers Town/ St Pancras [as she variously describes her birthplace?] with her two children, Alice Illett LOVETT aged 10 and William Charles LOVETT aged 7?[no birth cert. for William e the names he used all his life].Alice was born in Lambeth and William in Kennington, so he said.? I've hunted everywhere but especially using Ancestry and cannot find them under their own name although I have a William MARTYN in Battersea who has a 'wife' Lucy 29 and daughter Alice 10 and son William 7 and I think this may be them. Any help appreciated. Finding them in the 1881 census would be a wonderful Christmas present and, in my case birthday present too! Thanks CaroleCarole Watts       *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com.   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Carole, I tried to find the Lovett family on both Ancestry & The Genealogist - no luck. Have you tried FreeBMD or Ancestry for the Father's death?  I say this because it looks as if your Lucy may have remarried. What was her status in the 1871 and 1861 censuses?  If a widow in either of them, that will help you narrow down date of death of her husband. I hope these pointers help.  Richard Brown Bromley, Kent U.K. Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:37:55 +0000 (GMT) From: carole_ watts <carole_watts@talk21.com> Subject: [SRY] Christmas wish LOVETT 1881 census probably in Battersea but possibly Lambeth, please help me find Lucy LOVETT 29 seamstress born in Somers Town/ St Pancras [as she variously describes her birthplace?] with her two children, Alice Illett LOVETT aged 10 and William Charles LOVETT aged 7?[no birth cert. for William e the names he used all his life].Alice was born in Lambeth and William in Kennington, so he said.? I've hunted everywhere but especially using Ancestry and cannot find them under their own name although I have a William MARTYN in Battersea who has a 'wife' Lucy 29 and daughter Alice 10 and son William 7 and I think this may be them. Any help appreciated. Finding them in the 1881 census would be a wonderful Christmas present and, in my case birthday present too! Thanks CaroleCarole Watts

Jenny ,Hilary & Judy and everyone who helped with my enquiry for my Ellen Clements.I just wanted to let those who helped me know that I ordered the birth certificate For Eleanor Ann Clements Mar Qtr 1852 1c Vol 141 Shoreditch and it was the correct one . She was the daughter of James Thomas & Ann Clements and was born St Leonards Middlesex their abode was Thomas St, Hackney Rd, Shoreditch on the cert.They must have moved to Surrey soon afterwards. Many Thanks again Cheri

Hi Richard I have both BROWN's and NIGHTINGALES in my tree. In fact one of my BROWN's is named Cyril and he was born 1906 in Westcott ,Surrey. My grandmother was a NIGHTINGALE also born Westcott , Surrey in 1894. Perhaps we will find a connection someday but in the meantime happy hunting and Happy Holidays. Pat Marshall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard M Brown" <brownrichardm@yahoo.co.uk> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 1:48 AM Subject: [SRY] My Christmas Wish - BROWN of Reigate Hi there, I rather liked the December / Christmas wish theme which is running on the Lincolnshire Roots board. Unfortunately, my real wish does not relate to Lincolnshire. However, it most certainly does relate to Reigate in Surrey. My Christmas wish is to meet the family or descendants of Cyril Whittington BROWN Cyril Whittington BROWN (27 Mar 1880 - 14 Apr 1922 in Redhill) 18 Jun 1907 Married May NIGHTINGALE (29 May 1880 - 5 Mar 1940 in Reigate) Reigate Children Eric Cyril and Jessie L Jessie L BROWN (Dec ¼ 1913 - ??) Eric Cyril BROWN (Jun 1908 - ??) I canot trace his death he was reistered for war service, but no war record at all in any of the services. Eric has just "vanished." His spouse lived at 22 Smoke Lane, Reigate up to the 1950's 10 Sep 1934 Married Barbara Florence DAY (abt 1912 - ??) Children Jennifer BROWN (Dec ¼ 1935 - ??) Susan Joan BROWN (2 Feb 1940 - ??) I would so dearly love to meet someone, and find out more about their Brickmaking business. I have quite a lot of information - I met the grandson of the Brickyard manager and he has helped with a good deal of information, but there are still so many questions left unanswered. Why did the business decline? Do any of the business records survive? (none at Woking or Redhill) They certainly made lots of bricks - enough for a HUGE Brickwall :-)) Richard Brown Bromley, Kent U.K. *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jo Yes I have tried Ancestry , in fact I subscribed when I heard they were putting London baptisms and marriages online but alas , no joy. Congratulations on finding your grandmother and I will live in hope of having a breakthrough like yours but I hope I don't have to wait 25 years ! Thanks for taking the time to reply and Happy Holidays Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "jo mason" <jo.mason@swsmail.net> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [SRY] Still looking for Brown and Allsop Hi Pat Have you tried the baptisms on Ancestry London Parish site? I found my gt grandmother's baptism which gave her birth date - she had always been a year out with only a vague birthplace? So had the only census found while a child I had been looking for 25+ years. Cheers Jo Pat Marshall wrote: > > My Christmas wish has been the same for many years now and that is too find a > marriage for my gg grandparents Joseph BROWN > and Caroline ALLSOP so that I can find their parents names and go further back > with > my tree. > I have a birth certificate for my g grandmother ( their eldest daughter ) Caroline > Alice BROWN dated July 10 , 1870. She was born in Union Workhouse , > Guildford to Caroline BROWN and no father listed. The next sighting is the 1871 > census where I find Joseph age 23 , born Yorkshire, Caroline age 21 > born London ,Middlesex and baby Alice age 9 months born Guildford, living as > lodgers > at the Old Kings Head Inn in Dorking , Surrey . > In 1881 they are living in Westcott , Surrey and Joseph's birthplace is Lambeth > ,Surrey age 27 and Caroline gives hers as Walworth , Surrey age 26. > In 1891 (age 45 ) and 1901 (age 54 ) Joseph's birthplace is listed as Bradford , > Yorkshire and Caroline in 1891 (age 43 ) has London , Walworth > and in 1901 (age 50 ) London , Borough . > Caroline and Joseph lived the rest of their lives in Westcott and had several more > children , including Joseph ,Elizabeth ,Ann , Henry , Fanny ,William , George and > James. It was from the birth registrations of some of these later children that I > learned that Caroline's maiden name was ALLSOP. > Strangely enough they were able to keep all their children's ages correct on > various > census but not their own ages. > I would love to find a marriage for them or a baptism for Caroline because there > are > too many Joseph BROWNs to order certs without a fathers name. > I am open to any and all suggestions the great people on this list may offer . > > Pat Marshall > Ontario , Canada > > Happy Holidays > > > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous > old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ray Thanks for the info Ray, I thought I had covered all places to look, but I obviously overlooked somewhere. Thank you again, these are certainly part of my family and fill a hole I have had for quite a while now. Best wishes Yvonne Melb. ----- Original Message ----- From: rayh To: eng-surrey@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [SRY] ADMIN December - was My Christmas Wish -STONARD(STONNARD) Family of Pirbright Hello Evelyn, Have you seen these two death registrations??

Hi Jan Thank you for those suggestions but I am quite sure the 1841 marriage is not correct. Joseph and Caroline had their last child in 1894 and she would have been well into her 70's if they married in 1841. I am not sure what you mean, when you ask , where did I get Caroline Allsop and Joseph Brown from .Their daughter Caroline Alice born 1870 married Albert Nightingale in 1890 and one of their 13 children was my grandmother Annie Eliza. I traced back from my grandmother until I got stuck at Joseph and Caroline's marriage. Thanks again Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan MacKinven" <janmack@xtra.co.nz> To: <eng-surrey@rootsweb.com>; "Surrey list mail" <ENG-SURREY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [SRY] Still looking for BROWN and ALLSOP Hello Pat I think this could be the marriage you're looking for: Joseph Ainsworth BROWN and Caroline ALSOP Dec Qtr 1841 Leicester 15 161 (FreeBMD) You will see that Joseph's surname has also been transcribed as BRUCE by the same transcriber and again by another transcriber as BURN. Have a look at the 1851 Census HO107/2329 Folio 443 Page 17. This could be your Joseph and Caroline. 1861 Census - Joseph and Caroline RG9/3433 Folio 106 Page 1. You say you have a birth certificate for your great grandmother Caroline Alice BROWN. Her mother was Caroline BROWN, who would have been your gr gr grandmother. The 1871 Census shows Caroline Brown's parents as Henry BROWN and Caroline BROWN. (RG10/459 Folio 72 Page 13). Your Caroline Alice BROWN is on the 1881 Census as age 10, with parents Joseph and Caroline Brown. No doubt the reason her father is not listed on her birth certificate is because he was only 17 when Caroline Alice was born and her mother was 16. I'm curious to know where you got Joseph BROWN and Caroline ALLSOP from. Kind regards Jan New Zealand My Christmas wish has been the same for many years now and that is too find a marriage for my gg grandparents Joseph BROWN and Caroline ALLSOP so that I can find their parents names and go further back with my tree. I have a birth certificate for my g grandmother ( their eldest daughter ) Caroline Alice BROWN dated July 10 , 1870. She was born in Union Workhouse , Guildford to Caroline BROWN and no father listed. The next sighting is the 1871 census where I find Joseph age 23 , born Yorkshire, Caroline age 21 born London ,Middlesex and baby Alice age 9 months born Guildford, living as lodgers at the Old Kings Head Inn in Dorking , Surrey . In 1881 they are living in Westcott , Surrey and Joseph's birthplace is Lambeth ,Surrey age 27 and Caroline gives hers as Walworth , Surrey age 26. In 1891 (age 45 ) and 1901 (age 54 ) Joseph's birthplace is listed as Bradford , Yorkshire and Caroline in 1891 (age 43 ) has London , Walworth and in 1901 (age 50 ) London , Borough . Caroline and Joseph lived the rest of their lives in Westcott and had several more children , including Joseph ,Elizabeth ,Ann , Henry , Fanny ,William , George and James. It was from the birth registrations of some of these later children that I learned that Caroline's maiden name was ALLSOP. Strangely enough they were able to keep all their children's ages correct on various census but not their own ages. I would love to find a marriage for them or a baptism for Caroline because there are too many Joseph BROWNs to order certs without a fathers name. I am open to any and all suggestions the great people on this list may offer . Pat Marshall Ontario , Canada *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: Eng-Surrey-admin@rootsweb.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SURREY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> If you check with the local registrar I think you may find > the male child registered was subsequently named and > the second registration is in fact the same child with an > alteration rather than a second registration Thanks Nivard, good idea > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > PS , Nollaig shona :-) is Nollaig shona dhut cuideachd :-) le durachd Fionnghal .. in the somewhat frosty Highlands of Scotland

Hi Fionnghal I meant to reply earlier but got busy If you check with the local registrar I think you may find the male child registered was subsequently named and the second registration is in fact the same child with an alteration rather than a second registration Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) PS , Nollaig shona :-) > >> Twins? > > I'm considering that, Louise, especially as twins run in our family, > however, if the child had lived, why register one by name and not the > other. if it had died, why isn't he in the death register? That's why > I'm wondering about this alternative possibility, that there was only one > baby, but registered twice. Definitely the same parents. > > Thanks anyway :-) > > le durachd > > Fionnghal

> Twins? I'm considering that, Louise, especially as twins run in our family, however, if the child had lived, why register one by name and not the other. if it had died, why isn't he in the death register? That's why I'm wondering about this alternative possibility, that there was only one baby, but registered twice. Definitely the same parents. Thanks anyway :-) le durachd Fionnghal

Not sure if you have her baptism so here it is Indiana Eleanor Crouch Record Type: Baptism Date: 6 Jan 1819 Father's Name: Thomas Smith Crouch Mother's Name: Sarah Crouch Parish: Saint Mary At Lambeth Borough: Lambeth County: Middlesex A long shot - she had a brother Stephen Barton George Crouch Baptism 13 Oct 1816 Thomas Smith Crouch, Sarah Crouch Christ Church Southwark who died in 1869. Possibly if you find his marriage, there might be a Spademan/Spedman witness Anne South Australia Trevena wrote: > > I would like to find, for my Christmas wish, the husband of Indiana > Eleanor Crouch born in Lambeth in 1819, seemingly had two children, possibly > one, out of wedlock and then married a ????? Spademan. Indiana's name has > changed between the 1841 and 1861 census, cannot find her on the 1851 census > and one of her children, the other died, is now called Emily Spademan, > although they have spelt it Spedman. I cannot find a marriage for this > couple and know the name is right as a living relative remembers a nanny > Spadman. Thanks in advance, Trevena >

Hello Pat I think this could be the marriage you're looking for: Joseph Ainsworth BROWN and Caroline ALSOP Dec Qtr 1841 Leicester 15 161 (FreeBMD) You will see that Joseph's surname has also been transcribed as BRUCE by the same transcriber and again by another transcriber as BURN. Have a look at the 1851 Census HO107/2329 Folio 443 Page 17. This could be your Joseph and Caroline. 1861 Census - Joseph and Caroline RG9/3433 Folio 106 Page 1. You say you have a birth certificate for your great grandmother Caroline Alice BROWN. Her mother was Caroline BROWN, who would have been your gr gr grandmother. The 1871 Census shows Caroline Brown's parents as Henry BROWN and Caroline BROWN. (RG10/459 Folio 72 Page 13). Your Caroline Alice BROWN is on the 1881 Census as age 10, with parents Joseph and Caroline Brown. No doubt the reason her father is not listed on her birth certificate is because he was only 17 when Caroline Alice was born and her mother was 16. I'm curious to know where you got Joseph BROWN and Caroline ALLSOP from. Kind regards Jan New Zealand My Christmas wish has been the same for many years now and that is too find a marriage for my gg grandparents Joseph BROWN and Caroline ALLSOP so that I can find their parents names and go further back with my tree. I have a birth certificate for my g grandmother ( their eldest daughter ) Caroline Alice BROWN dated July 10 , 1870. She was born in Union Workhouse , Guildford to Caroline BROWN and no father listed. The next sighting is the 1871 census where I find Joseph age 23 , born Yorkshire, Caroline age 21 born London ,Middlesex and baby Alice age 9 months born Guildford, living as lodgers at the Old Kings Head Inn in Dorking , Surrey . In 1881 they are living in Westcott , Surrey and Joseph's birthplace is Lambeth ,Surrey age 27 and Caroline gives hers as Walworth , Surrey age 26. In 1891 (age 45 ) and 1901 (age 54 ) Joseph's birthplace is listed as Bradford , Yorkshire and Caroline in 1891 (age 43 ) has London , Walworth and in 1901 (age 50 ) London , Borough . Caroline and Joseph lived the rest of their lives in Westcott and had several more children , including Joseph ,Elizabeth ,Ann , Henry , Fanny ,William , George and James. It was from the birth registrations of some of these later children that I learned that Caroline's maiden name was ALLSOP. Strangely enough they were able to keep all their children's ages correct on various census but not their own ages. I would love to find a marriage for them or a baptism for Caroline because there are too many Joseph BROWNs to order certs without a fathers name. I am open to any and all suggestions the great people on this list may offer . Pat Marshall Ontario , Canada

1881 census probably in Battersea but possibly Lambeth, please help me find Lucy LOVETT 29 seamstress born in Somers Town/ St Pancras [as she variously describes her birthplace ] with her two children, Alice Illett LOVETT aged 10 and William Charles LOVETT aged 7 [no birth cert. for William e the names he used all his life].Alice was born in Lambeth and William in Kennington, so he said.  I've hunted everywhere but especially using Ancestry and cannot find them under their own name although I have a William MARTYN in Battersea who has a 'wife' Lucy 29 and daughter Alice 10 and son William 7 and I think this may be them. Any help appreciated. Finding them in the 1881 census would be a wonderful Christmas present and, in my case birthday present too! Thanks CaroleCarole Watts carole_watts@talk21.co.uk

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:55:08 +0000 (GMT) Fionnghal <fionnghalnicphadraig@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hello Fionnghal, > The mum's maiden name is wrongly transcribed by FreeBMD here but i he *index* is incorrect, so the transcription is, in fact, accurate. > have left a postem to that effect. In this case, the correct thing to do, since any attempt at correcting the error using the formal process used by FreeBMD will fail. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" I'll be the rubbish you'll be the bin Love Song - The Damned