Hallo Try the college of arms in London. They will tell you who they belong to. They do not sound real. Jean Hunter Kent [email protected] wrote: > Dear all, > > I am working on a family history publication of the MARTERs and MARTYRs of Surrey and Kent and have just commenced a chapter on coats of arms. But living in the USA in a relatively small town in Texas, (de-camped from UK in 2008) I am having trouble properly researching this area. To date, I have spent a huge numbers of hours trawling the Internet with some modicum of success and found reference to three crests described as follows: > > "MARTYR, Eng. An ostrich’s head, argent, collared, or, between two palm branches, vert." Earliest date for blazon is 1817 with the publication of Volume I of Alexander Deuchar’s British Crests. > > "MARTER, on a chapeau, gu., turned up erm., an eagle rising, ppr." Earliest date for blazon is 1851, with the publication of Volume II of J. P. Elven’s The Book of Family Crests. > > "MARTYR, a griffin segreant, or, wings indorsed, ar., (holding a rose, gu., stalked and leaved, ppr.)" Earliest date for blazon is 1854, with the issue of Elven’s The Book of Family Crests, Seventh Edition, Enlarged. > > These and many other references were all found at Internet Archives or Google eBooks but I am looking for any earlier descriptions of these crests that may be available, or indeed any other MARTER or MARTYR crests. Does anyone have reference to books that might help me to push blazon dates back further please? > > I have also noticed that some of the volumes have a single page inside colourfully illustrating either the full title of the volume or just a part of the title. Would these have been part of the original volume of added by an enthusiastic owner? Happy to scan these images and send to anyone who might be able to, or want to, help me out. > > Tony Marter

Hi Tony Have you tried the College of Arms? http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About.htm HTH Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 4:57 PM Subject: [SRY] Family Crests MARTER and MARTYR > > Dear all, > > I am working on a family history publication of the MARTERs and MARTYRs of > Surrey and Kent and have just commenced a chapter on coats of arms. But > living in the USA in a relatively small town in Texas, (de-camped from UK > in 2008) I am having trouble properly researching this area. To date, I > have spent a huge numbers of hours trawling the Internet with some modicum > of success and found reference to three crests described as follows: > > "MARTYR, Eng. An ostrich’s head, argent, collared, or, between two palm > branches, vert." Earliest date for blazon is 1817 with the publication of > Volume I of Alexander Deuchar’s British Crests. > > "MARTER, on a chapeau, gu., turned up erm., an eagle rising, ppr." > Earliest date for blazon is 1851, with the publication of Volume II of J. > P. Elven’s The Book of Family Crests. > > "MARTYR, a griffin segreant, or, wings indorsed, ar., (holding a rose, > gu., stalked and leaved, ppr.)" Earliest date for blazon is 1854, with > the issue of Elven’s The Book of Family Crests, Seventh Edition, Enlarged. > > These and many other references were all found at Internet Archives or > Google eBooks but I am looking for any earlier descriptions of these > crests that may be available, or indeed any other MARTER or MARTYR crests. > Does anyone have reference to books that might help me to push blazon > dates back further please? > > I have also noticed that some of the volumes have a single page inside > colourfully illustrating either the full title of the volume or just a > part of the title. Would these have been part of the original volume of > added by an enthusiastic owner? Happy to scan these images and send to > anyone who might be able to, or want to, help me out. > > Tony Marter > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** > superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>From The Standard ( London, England ), Thursday, December 09, 1880; pg.1; Issue 17594. DEATH. STENNING . - On or about the 1st. inst., at Sydney, New South Wales, Arthur, second son of the late Edward STENNING , of Stratton, Godstone, Surrey, aged 30.

Dear all, I am working on a family history publication of the MARTERs and MARTYRs of Surrey and Kent and have just commenced a chapter on coats of arms. But living in the USA in a relatively small town in Texas, (de-camped from UK in 2008) I am having trouble properly researching this area. To date, I have spent a huge numbers of hours trawling the Internet with some modicum of success and found reference to three crests described as follows: "MARTYR, Eng. An ostrich’s head, argent, collared, or, between two palm branches, vert." Earliest date for blazon is 1817 with the publication of Volume I of Alexander Deuchar’s British Crests. "MARTER, on a chapeau, gu., turned up erm., an eagle rising, ppr." Earliest date for blazon is 1851, with the publication of Volume II of J. P. Elven’s The Book of Family Crests. "MARTYR, a griffin segreant, or, wings indorsed, ar., (holding a rose, gu., stalked and leaved, ppr.)" Earliest date for blazon is 1854, with the issue of Elven’s The Book of Family Crests, Seventh Edition, Enlarged. These and many other references were all found at Internet Archives or Google eBooks but I am looking for any earlier descriptions of these crests that may be available, or indeed any other MARTER or MARTYR crests. Does anyone have reference to books that might help me to push blazon dates back further please? I have also noticed that some of the volumes have a single page inside colourfully illustrating either the full title of the volume or just a part of the title. Would these have been part of the original volume of added by an enthusiastic owner? Happy to scan these images and send to anyone who might be able to, or want to, help me out. Tony Marter

Hi everyone, Thanks to all those who have discusssed this query on and off list. It seems that there may be records available at Kew, so I'm going to go down that avenue to see if indeed there are such records in the hope that the situation regarding my 9 yr old lad being admitted there is recorded. Best wishes to all, Jon

I am wondering if anyone can access the records from the Croydon Workhouse Infirmary. I believe that Julia Duggan, aged 72 years from Thorton Heath died 11th November 1891 was possibly my gg grandmother but have not been able to establish if this was indeed my relative. As I live in Aus I cannot access these records online and need a nearby resident to help me. Apparently, you will need to look at the admission and discharge registers to see when and who admitted Julia, the discharge, knowing she died, but it could be that family collected the body. I also note there are Creed registers as well. Anyone able to help out, I would be very very grateful. Thanks in anticipation Rose

Hi Alan One mans Ag Lab is anothers Farmer Much depended on who gave the information and who recorded it You could be an Ag Lab and then rent an acre of land and be a tenant farmer (in some peoples eyes) You need to try and find other information to back up the data you have so far Did you find your man on the 1841 ? (I am guessing not, did he die?) Any children to check their baptisms Did he leave a will ? You say he was a labourer on the marriage? have you seen the original entry in the PRs Farmers are more often than not mentioned in Directories for the place they were living, have you tried any The less likely event is a poor hard up Ag Lab marrying a land owners daughter, it did happen of course but rare, I would suggest most wealthy fathers would disinherit to stop movement of assets out of their desired circle rather than see their hard gained land go to someone they did not think worthy of it He may of course have inherited My g.g.grandfather was an Ag Lab in 1851, a labourer on his marriage registration in 1857, a cowman in 1861, a farm steward in 1871, a Land steward & agent, Farmer in 1881, a farmer in 1891 and farm Bailiff in 1901 When he passed away my g.g.grandfather left land and several houses, so accumulated some wealth in the process, this did take some years though Sadly they did not filter through to me though :-( Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a > tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in > 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. > > I would have thought it unlikely to make the transition from Ag Lab to tenant farmer without some > cash for a deposit, equipment (horse, cart etc). I also think it unlikely an Ag Lab could save > sufficient for this. If so, this would suggest some financial event occurred for them both eg > marrying into some money, inheriting some or whatever. Am I right or was it much easier to make > this transition than I think? > > Alan

Hi I have an ancestor who was a servant, a couple of years later a labourer, and then he, or his wife got an inheritance, and were later brickmakers and farmers (There was a brick kiln on the farm) So it is possible Bob -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jean Hunter Sent: 25 July 2011 09:19 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SRY] Social mobility Alan Mills wrote: > My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. >

Hi Jon, his parents maybe had connections and jumped at the chance of the boy getting an education perhaps they couldn;t afford.  it'd be seen as a good opportunity.  I came across a similar happening while researching possible links in distant twig.  The kid was left in the 'educating facility' while his parents and siblings hoofed it to the other side of the planet!  Can't see me doing that, however, he followed some years later.  In another, the wee eldest 4yo dau was sent off to an RC convent on the other side of England while her siblings remained at home with mum and dad.  were they planning her as an offering to the church? i don't know.  she eventually left, married and created our line of descent but it's a puzzle. You may find a relative who did do well and could speak for the boy.   I'm sure that happened. le durachd Fionnghal > --- On Mon, 25/7/11, Jon's FH <[email protected]> wrote: > I still can't quite grasp why the child would have been sent there. He was not from an upper class family who had found themselves in financial difficulty, also, he had a younger brother and sister (8 and 6) who were at home with a couple of older sibblings and their parents at Marylebone, and an elder sister who was a teacher in Leicestershire. The web links did make very interesting reading as I said, but I still can't seem to fit that family in to the requirements for sending a child there in the first place. Then again I suppose I don't know the entire situation with regards the family.

Dear J and Anne, Thanks very much for your replies. the links made very interesting reading. I still can't quite grasp why the child would have been sent there. He was not from an upper class family who had found themselves in financial difficulty, also, he had a younger brother and sister (8 and 6) who were at home with a couple of older sibblings and their parents at Marylebone, and an elder sister who was a teacher in Leicestershire. The web links did make very interesting reading as I said, but I still can't seem to fit that family in to the requirements for sending a child there in the first place. Then again I suppose I don't know the entire situation with regards the family. Many thanks once again, best wishes, Jon

Clearly it was very possible to make that transition if one emigrated under one of the aided schemes. (I can readily think of men who became farmers in South Africa with land of their own after about 1850, having been ag labs in England.) Were there any similar schemes aiming at populating districts in England or otherwise of promoting some preferred type of farming after the enclosures? Geoff On 25 July 2011 07:01, Alan Mills <[email protected]> wrote: > My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. > > I would have thought it unlikely to make the transition from Ag Lab to tenant farmer without some cash for a deposit, equipment (horse, cart etc). I also think it unlikely an Ag Lab could save sufficient for this. If so, this would suggest some financial event occurred for them both eg marrying into some money, inheriting some or whatever. Am I right or was it much easier to make this transition than I think? -- Geoff Chew [email protected]

An ag lab could cover any number of jobs in the countryside from blacksmith to miller, so you would find several levels of social mobility within the classification and some enumerators just classed them all as ag labs, while others gave their full occupations.Patti > Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:18:56 +0100 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SRY] Social mobility > > Alan Mills wrote: > > My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. > > > > I would have thought it unlikely to make the transition from Ag Lab to tenant farmer without some cash for a deposit, equipment (horse, cart etc). I also think it unlikely an Ag Lab could save sufficient for this. If so, this would suggest some financial event occurred for them both eg marrying into some money, inheriting some or whatever. Am I right or was it much easier to make this transition than I think? > > Hallo > > I hace been told the terms labourer and ag lab are used to describe a > lot of different jobs. The description is right but not accurate. > > Jean Hunter > Kent > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Alan Mills wrote: > My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. > > I would have thought it unlikely to make the transition from Ag Lab to tenant farmer without some cash for a deposit, equipment (horse, cart etc). I also think it unlikely an Ag Lab could save sufficient for this. If so, this would suggest some financial event occurred for them both eg marrying into some money, inheriting some or whatever. Am I right or was it much easier to make this transition than I think? Hallo I hace been told the terms labourer and ag lab are used to describe a lot of different jobs. The description is right but not accurate. Jean Hunter Kent

My gggf Thomas Young is shown as a labourer in Horley in 1833 when he married and by 1835 he is a tenant farmer. Similarly a possible relation James Young, is shown as an Ag Lab in Charlwood in 1841 and a farmer, presumably tenant, in 1851. I would have thought it unlikely to make the transition from Ag Lab to tenant farmer without some cash for a deposit, equipment (horse, cart etc). I also think it unlikely an Ag Lab could save sufficient for this. If so, this would suggest some financial event occurred for them both eg marrying into some money, inheriting some or whatever. Am I right or was it much easier to make this transition than I think? Alan

Hi Jon, Apologies if this sounds obvious but have you tried searching on the title of your post? I copied and pasted into ask.com and found the following (amongst others). http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/GetRecord/SHCOL_6239 http://www.redhill-reigate-history.co.uk/St%20Anne's.htm http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45284 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43037 http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications/terriblesights-4.htm I haven't looked in detail at these links so you may already have found them and they do not answer your queries. I'm afraid that I have no further knowledge of the asylum but I hope this helps. Anne > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:06:02 +0100 > Subject: [SRY] The Royal Asylum of the St Ann's Society, Streatham > > Hi listers, > > Is there anyone out there with a knowledge of this institution please? > > I have a 9 year old child in my family who is there in 1851, recorded as a Scholar. > I would have guessed by being in there that he had some sort of mental problem, or as I know was the case back then, maybe a physical problem like blindness. but in the next census, 1861, he is in Devon, and is a gunner in the Royal Artillery. I have been unable to find him in the 1871 census, but in the Scottish 1881 census he is in Argyll, recorded as a Sergeant in the Royal Artillery. He dies in the Holborn area of London in 1884. > > If anyone could shed any light as to how this channel of events could have taken place in his life, I’d really appreciate knowing, as it seems a bit weird to me? > > Thanks in advance, Jon > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You might like to look here <http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/GetRecord/SHCOL_6239> found using Google pasting the heading of your message. J On 24 July 2011 16:06, Jon's FH <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi listers, > > Is there anyone out there with a knowledge of this institution please? > > I have a 9 year old child in my family who is there in 1851, recorded as a Scholar. > I would have guessed by being in there that he had some sort of mental problem, or as I know was the case back then, maybe a physical problem like blindness. but in the next census, 1861, he is in Devon, and is a gunner in the Royal Artillery. I have been unable to find him in the 1871 census, but in the Scottish 1881 census he is in Argyll, recorded as a Sergeant in the Royal Artillery. He dies in the Holborn area of London in 1884. > > If anyone could shed any light as to how this channel of events could have taken place in his life, I’d really appreciate knowing, as it seems a bit weird to me? > > Thanks in advance, Jon > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at:  [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi listers, Is there anyone out there with a knowledge of this institution please? I have a 9 year old child in my family who is there in 1851, recorded as a Scholar. I would have guessed by being in there that he had some sort of mental problem, or as I know was the case back then, maybe a physical problem like blindness. but in the next census, 1861, he is in Devon, and is a gunner in the Royal Artillery. I have been unable to find him in the 1871 census, but in the Scottish 1881 census he is in Argyll, recorded as a Sergeant in the Royal Artillery. He dies in the Holborn area of London in 1884. If anyone could shed any light as to how this channel of events could have taken place in his life, I’d really appreciate knowing, as it seems a bit weird to me? Thanks in advance, Jon

Do you have access to Ancestry? If not it still might be worth while looking at a short-term sub to see this and look for anything else within the Dorset dataset. The details I quoted are from the images of the original records held at Dorset RO which have been digitised and put onto Ancestry. As far as I know what I see is what you would get from them. I can attempt to send you this image from the Ancestry website - but I'm often not successful as it doesn't always work. Failing that your local library may have the Ancestry Library version and it should be on there. J On 24 July 2011 15:38, richard avery <[email protected]> wrote: > > J Thanks for this,it looks promising as her fathers name was Richard and  Sarah Ann was a witness on the marriage certificate. I will contact the Dorset Records office to ask them if I can have a copy of the Charlton Marshal records as hopefully a birth date will be given. Once again thanks > > william > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:35:07 +0100 >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [SRY] Avery/Bridle >> >> Ancestry has the Dorset Baptisms for Charlton Marshal: >> >> 8 May 1883 - Charles Richard son of Richard and Mary Jane BRIDLE >> 2 Mar 1884 - Alfred Bridle -do- >> 2 Mar 1884 - Edward Bridle -do- >> 2 Mar 1884 - Mary Amelia Bridle -do- >> 2 Mar 1884 - Sarah Ann Bridle -do- >> >> Abode Boots Close, father's occupation Labourer >> >> Unfortunately no birth dates given, but I would hazard a guess that >> those four were not quadruplets! >> >> J >> >> On 24 July 2011 12:31, richard avery <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Hi My grandmother Mary Amelia Avery died in St Albans aged 77 in 1953. Her maiden name was Bridle and my father and one of his brothers Reginald Avery was born and lived in Reigate Surrey. Although I know the their marriage date was 1890 in Dorset I cannot trace either her birth or her parents. If anyone can help I would be most grateful William Avery >> > *************************************** >> >> *************************************** >> Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. >> >> List Admin can be contacted at:  [email protected] >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at:  [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi William Her father's name is confirmed as Richard in the entry in the marriage register of the Parish Church of Tarrant Keyneston on 22 April 1890 (courtesy of Ancestry). Groom was John AVERY, bachelor, aged 22, labourer, abode Witchampton, father Henry AVERY (labourer). Bride was Mary Amelia BRIDLE, aged 22, spinster, abode Tarrant Keyneston, father Richard BRIDLE, labourer. Bride and groom both signed. Witnesses were George BRIDLE (made his mark) and Sarah Ann BRIDLE (signed). Best wishes Caroline > Ancestry has the Dorset Baptisms for Charlton Marshal: > > 8 May 1883 - Charles Richard son of Richard and Mary Jane BRIDLE > 2 Mar 1884 - Alfred Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Edward Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Mary Amelia Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Sarah Ann Bridle -do- > > Abode Boots Close, father's occupation Labourer > > Unfortunately no birth dates given, but I would hazard a guess that > those four were not quadruplets! > > J > > On 24 July 2011 12:31, richard avery <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi My grandmother Mary Amelia Avery died in St Albans aged 77 in > 1953. Her maiden name was Bridle and my father and one of his brothers > Reginald Avery was born and lived in Reigate Surrey. Although I know > the their marriage date was 1890 in Dorset I cannot trace either her > birth or her parents. If anyone can help I would be most grateful > William Avery

J Thanks for this,it looks promising as her fathers name was Richard and Sarah Ann was a witness on the marriage certificate. I will contact the Dorset Records office to ask them if I can have a copy of the Charlton Marshal records as hopefully a birth date will be given. Once again thanks william > Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:35:07 +0100 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SRY] Avery/Bridle > > Ancestry has the Dorset Baptisms for Charlton Marshal: > > 8 May 1883 - Charles Richard son of Richard and Mary Jane BRIDLE > 2 Mar 1884 - Alfred Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Edward Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Mary Amelia Bridle -do- > 2 Mar 1884 - Sarah Ann Bridle -do- > > Abode Boots Close, father's occupation Labourer > > Unfortunately no birth dates given, but I would hazard a guess that > those four were not quadruplets! > > J > > On 24 July 2011 12:31, richard avery <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi My grandmother Mary Amelia Avery died in St Albans aged 77 in 1953. Her maiden name was Bridle and my father and one of his brothers Reginald Avery was born and lived in Reigate Surrey. Although I know the their marriage date was 1890 in Dorset I cannot trace either her birth or her parents. If anyone can help I would be most grateful William Avery > > *************************************** > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message