Hi Carole The fact you have not found them does not mean they do not exist ;-) Births may not have been registered but the marriage if it took place is almost certainly somewhere, perhaps not where you are expecting or under names you may not know (i.e. was the bride a widow married previously) People for reasons known only to them sometimes change name at times Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >I read this with some interest, having spent months researching a family of > Grahams, I cannot find their marriage nor registration of any of their five > children, have concluded at last they were not registered. > > Carole Brett

My great grandfather-in-law, Samuel Leonard, also lacks registration.  Ancestry.co.uk told me that is wasn't firm law until about 1875 that births had to be registered.   Corrall --- On Sun, 31/7/11, DAVID BRETT <[email protected]> wrote: From: DAVID BRETT <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate To: "'Chris Willis'" <[email protected]>, [email protected] Date: Sunday, 31 July, 2011, 17:51 I read this with some interest, having spent months researching a family of Grahams, I cannot find their marriage nor registration of any of their five children, have concluded at last they were not registered. Carole Brett -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Willis Sent: 31 July 2011 14:00 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate Hi Rose you say there is no birth certificate. Does this rest entirely on the lack of an index entry in the GRO indexes? If so you sd ask the local registrar. It is a well documented fact that a significant proportion of entries either failed to reach the GRO, were missed in the indexing, or were so garbled as to be unrecognisable. Much of the research refers to the marriage indexes, which are a bit different, but a smaller study indicates the others are similar. Google "Mike Foster - A Comedy of Errors". Having said all that, it is surprising that the indexes are as good as they are. Chris Willis in yateley, Hants ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick and Rose Lee" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 6:17 AM Subject: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nick and Rose Lee <[email protected]> > Date: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:16 PM > Subject: No birth certificate > To: [email protected] > > > Any ideas! > My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate. > According > to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, > Croydon, Surrey.  His wedding certificate and death certificate state his > parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan.  I would like to find > some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish > whether he has siblings or not.  I have spent such a long time researching > info on Jeremiah but have very little.  Any ideas as to what I could do > would be appreciated. > > Rose *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  [email protected]   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at:  [email protected]   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rose, In my wife's family we had two very similar occurances. Her great grandmother's birth was registered as Harriett Harvey. She appeared in the 1851 census under that name, but shortly after was baptised with the name charlotte, and she remained Charlotte for the rest of her life. The other occurance was with Charlotte's son. In the 1881 Census, Ernest John albray was just 5 days old. Thankfully for me, the unusual surname of Albray made it easier to find his birth was registered as Percy Douglas Albray, and a baptism record later that year showed it was the same child. You could well find that his birth was registered under a different name to what you expect. I also remember a similar query on another list not so long ago, and the outcome was that the birth index simply showed "Male", and no forename at all, but the date of birth matched that of the child in question, as did the parents names. So don't give up hope yet, the answer could be there, but just not how you are expecting to find it. Kindest regards, Jon

I read this with some interest, having spent months researching a family of Grahams, I cannot find their marriage nor registration of any of their five children, have concluded at last they were not registered. Carole Brett -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Willis Sent: 31 July 2011 14:00 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate Hi Rose you say there is no birth certificate. Does this rest entirely on the lack of an index entry in the GRO indexes? If so you sd ask the local registrar. It is a well documented fact that a significant proportion of entries either failed to reach the GRO, were missed in the indexing, or were so garbled as to be unrecognisable. Much of the research refers to the marriage indexes, which are a bit different, but a smaller study indicates the others are similar. Google "Mike Foster - A Comedy of Errors". Having said all that, it is surprising that the indexes are as good as they are. Chris Willis in yateley, Hants ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick and Rose Lee" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 6:17 AM Subject: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nick and Rose Lee <[email protected]> > Date: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:16 PM > Subject: No birth certificate > To: [email protected] > > > Any ideas! > My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate. > According > to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, > Croydon, Surrey. His wedding certificate and death certificate state his > parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan. I would like to find > some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish > whether he has siblings or not. I have spent such a long time researching > info on Jeremiah but have very little. Any ideas as to what I could do > would be appreciated. > > Rose *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Chest a minute , I left a word out of my transcript :-) Probate Calendars 1921 (on Ancestry) BEADLE George William of 91 grove road Grays Essex died 11 February 1921 at the Royal *Chest* Hospital City Road London Probate London 18 August to Jessie Beadle widow Effects £206 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >A relative has given me the date of death of George William Beadle as 11th of Feb. 1921, at the >Royal Chest Hospital, in London. Further information indicated that he lived at 91 Grove Road, >Grays, Essex, and that he was 46 years of age. Unfortunately she does not remember where she got >this information. > > As our George was born in 1875 in Lambeth, the eldest son of Eliza (Martin) and James William John > Beadle the age would appear to be correct. I have looked through the LDS site, FreeBMD and > Ancestry, but no luck. > > Can anyone suggest other sites where this information might be stored. > > Bobbie Carlson

Hi Bobbie Probate Calendars 1921 (on Ancestry) BEADLE George William of 91 grove road Grays Essex died 11 February 1921 at the Royal Hospital City Road London Probate London 18 August to Jessie Beadle widow Effects £206 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >A relative has given me the date of death of George William Beadle as 11th of Feb. 1921, at the >Royal Chest Hospital, in London. Further information indicated that he lived at 91 Grove Road, >Grays, Essex, and that he was 46 years of age. Unfortunately she does not remember where she got >this information. > > As our George was born in 1875 in Lambeth, the eldest son of Eliza (Martin) and James William John > Beadle the age would appear to be correct. I have looked through the LDS site, FreeBMD and > Ancestry, but no luck. > > Can anyone suggest other sites where this information might be stored. > > Bobbie Carlson

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nick and Rose Lee <[email protected]> Date: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:16 PM Subject: No birth certificate To: [email protected] Any ideas! My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate. According to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, Croydon, Surrey. His wedding certificate and death certificate state his parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan. I would like to find some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish whether he has siblings or not. I have spent such a long time researching info on Jeremiah but have very little. Any ideas as to what I could do would be appreciated. Rose

Hi Nivard, Thanks very much for such a speedy reply. I was hopeful that the marriage would be on the LMA records, but as you say it doesn't look like Ancestry has it. I did try both the Ancestry trees and genes renited but did not find anything that would help me. I think I will have to ask her to get a couple of the certificates and then maybe we can work back from there. Thank you for your help Lynda > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:56:20 +0100 > Subject: Re: [SRY] HALLETT family in Camberwell > > Hi Lynda > > Ancestry have Camberwell marriages in the LMA records but yours does not show there, which suggest > it may have been a register office marriage in which case you would have to get the certificate > > I doubt you will find anyone has access to PRs that recent for the baptisms, if in fact they were > baptised > > It strikes me that your friend needs to put her hand in her purse to proceed further with any > confidence of it being the right family > > You could also try the Ancestry trees or the dreaded genesreunited :-( > > Either way you would probably need to confirm anything found with certs as so much on both are > without sources > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > > > > Hi Listers, This is my first message on this list and I am hoping someone can help me. I have > > found a marriage in 1916 in Camberwell Vol 1d pg 1689 between William Hallett and Nellie Green. I > > know they had at least one child in Camberwell, William George Hallet b.1816 vol 1d pg 1513. There > > are a few other entries for Hallett/Green children in Camberwell but I have no way of knowing if > > they are the same family. They are Violet L b.1920, Thomas H b.1924, Sidney R b.1926 Does anyone > > have access to a CD for Camberwell which would maybe give father's occupation or an address that > > was determine whether this is one family. Also I would like to know the names of William and > > Nellie's respective fathers. I realise I can purchase their marriage certificate, but I am trying > > to put a tree together for a friend and I am just trying to see if I am on the right track or not > > before we go down the route of purchasing several certificates. Thank you Lynda > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Rose you say there is no birth certificate. Does this rest entirely on the lack of an index entry in the GRO indexes? If so you sd ask the local registrar. It is a well documented fact that a significant proportion of entries either failed to reach the GRO, were missed in the indexing, or were so garbled as to be unrecognisable. Much of the research refers to the marriage indexes, which are a bit different, but a smaller study indicates the others are similar. Google "Mike Foster - A Comedy of Errors". Having said all that, it is surprising that the indexes are as good as they are. Chris Willis in yateley, Hants ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick and Rose Lee" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 6:17 AM Subject: [SRY] Fwd: No birth certificate > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nick and Rose Lee <[email protected]> > Date: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:16 PM > Subject: No birth certificate > To: [email protected] > > > Any ideas! > My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate. > According > to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, > Croydon, Surrey. His wedding certificate and death certificate state his > parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan. I would like to find > some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish > whether he has siblings or not. I have spent such a long time researching > info on Jeremiah but have very little. Any ideas as to what I could do > would be appreciated. > > Rose

Hi Lynda Ancestry have Camberwell marriages in the LMA records but yours does not show there, which suggest it may have been a register office marriage in which case you would have to get the certificate I doubt you will find anyone has access to PRs that recent for the baptisms, if in fact they were baptised It strikes me that your friend needs to put her hand in her purse to proceed further with any confidence of it being the right family You could also try the Ancestry trees or the dreaded genesreunited :-( Either way you would probably need to confirm anything found with certs as so much on both are without sources Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Listers, This is my first message on this list and I am hoping someone can help me. I have > found a marriage in 1916 in Camberwell Vol 1d pg 1689 between William Hallett and Nellie Green. I > know they had at least one child in Camberwell, William George Hallet b.1816 vol 1d pg 1513. There > are a few other entries for Hallett/Green children in Camberwell but I have no way of knowing if > they are the same family. They are Violet L b.1920, Thomas H b.1924, Sidney R b.1926 Does anyone > have access to a CD for Camberwell which would maybe give father's occupation or an address that > was determine whether this is one family. Also I would like to know the names of William and > Nellie's respective fathers. I realise I can purchase their marriage certificate, but I am trying > to put a tree together for a friend and I am just trying to see if I am on the right track or not > before we go down the route of purchasing several certificates. Thank you Lynda

Hi Listers, This is my first message on this list and I am hoping someone can help me. I have found a marriage in 1916 in Camberwell Vol 1d pg 1689 between William Hallett and Nellie Green. I know they had at least one child in Camberwell, William George Hallet b.1816 vol 1d pg 1513. There are a few other entries for Hallett/Green children in Camberwell but I have no way of knowing if they are the same family. They are Violet L b.1920, Thomas H b.1924, Sidney R b.1926 Does anyone have access to a CD for Camberwell which would maybe give father's occupation or an address that was determine whether this is one family. Also I would like to know the names of William and Nellie's respective fathers. I realise I can purchase their marriage certificate, but I am trying to put a tree together for a friend and I am just trying to see if I am on the right track or not before we go down the route of purchasing several certificates. Thank you Lynda

Hi Rose. Have you considered Baptism records? Dave. In a message dated 31/07/2011 06:19:53 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Nick and Rose Lee <[email protected]> Date: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 3:16 PM Subject: No birth certificate To: [email protected] Any ideas! My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate. According to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, Croydon, Surrey. His wedding certificate and death certificate state his parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan. I would like to find some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish whether he has siblings or not. I have spent such a long time researching info on Jeremiah but have very little. Any ideas as to what I could do would be appreciated. Rose *************************************** Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One further part Julia in 1891 Correction to DUGGAN added Name: Julia Duggers Age: 70 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821 Relation: Mother Gender: Female Where born: Cork, Ireland Civil parish: Croydon Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Town: Thornton Heath County/Island: Surrey Country: England Registration district: Croydon Sub-registration district: Croydon ED, institution, or vessel: 60 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 596 Folio: 142 Page Number: 42 Household Members: Name Age James Duggers 32 Julia Duggers 70 RG12; Piece: 596; Folio 142; Page 42; GSU roll: 6095706. Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Any ideas! > My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate.  According > to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, > Croydon, Surrey.  His wedding certificate and death certificate state his > parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan.  I would like to find > some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish > whether he has siblings or not.  I have spent such a long time researching > info on Jeremiah but have very little.  Any ideas as to what I could do > would be appreciated. > > Rose

Hi Rose I can't answer your request for the birth but there is plenty more out there on this family Their marriage (note another MCCARTHY marriage on the same page, a sister to Julia perhaps?) Marriages Sep 1858 Dance James Croydon 2a 282 Duggan Charles Croydon 2a 282 McCarthy Julia Croydon 2a 282 McCarthy Mary Croydon 2a 282 Birth of son (see 1871) Births Dec 1859 DUGGAN James Croydon 2a 174 Possible death reg Julia Deaths Dec 1891 DUGGAN Julia 72 Croydon 2a 151 Possible death reg Michael Julia's step son Deaths Jun 1916 Duggan Michael 73 Croydon 2a 403 Jeremiah & Julia 1871 Name: Jeremiah Duggin Age: 9 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862 [1862] Relation: Son Mother's name: Julia Duggin Gender: Male Where born: Croydon, Surrey, England Civil parish: Croydon Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour Town: Croydon County/Island: Surrey Country: England Registration district: Croydon Sub-registration district: Croydon ED, institution, or vessel: 28 Household schedule number: 313 Piece: 845 Folio: 36 Page Number: 63 Household Members: Name Age Julia Duggin 49 Michael Duggin 29 James Duggin 11 Jeremiah Duggin 9 (transcribed as 19 but correction added to 9) RG10; Piece: 845; Folio: 36; Page: 63 Julia a visitor in 1861 Name: Julia Duggin Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1822 Relation: Visitor Gender: Female Where born: Newington, Surrey, England Civil parish: Southwark St Olave Ecclesiastical parish: St Olave County/Island: Surrey Country: England Registration district: St Olave Southwark Sub-registration district: St Olave ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 207 Piece: 316 Folio: 121 Page Number: 34 Household Members: Name Age Margaret Mc Carthy 40 James Mc Carthy 44 Julia Duggin 39 Elizabeth Duggin 3 Johanna Harrings 68 RG9; Piece: 316; Folio: 121; Page: 34; GSU roll: 542613. Possible death for Charles although there is another family of a Charles and *Jude* in Croydon 1861, they also have a son Michael b1846, James b1842, dau Johanna b1841 all Ireland So a little for you to be going on with Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Any ideas! > My great grandfather, Jeremiah Duggan has *no* birth certificate.  According > to 1881 census he was born in either 1861 or 1862 in Thornton Heath, > Croydon, Surrey.  His wedding certificate and death certificate state his > parents as Charles and Julia (nee McCarthy) Duggan.  I would like to find > some evidence to prove his parents are Charles and Julia and establish > whether he has siblings or not.  I have spent such a long time researching > info on Jeremiah but have very little.  Any ideas as to what I could do > would be appreciated. > > Rose

A relative has given me the date of death of George William Beadle as 11th of Feb. 1921, at the Royal Chest Hospital, in London. Further information indicated that he lived at 91 Grove Road, Grays, Essex, and that he was 46 years of age. Unfortunately she does not remember where she got this information. As our George was born in 1875 in Lambeth, the eldest son of Eliza (Martin) and James William John Beadle the age would appear to be correct. I have looked through the LDS site, FreeBMD and Ancestry, but no luck. Can anyone suggest other sites where this information might be stored. Bobbie Carlson

The Surrey Plus Wills website has just been updated (web address below). It now contains over 48,000 Names from 2,886 Surrey & 1,362 non-Surrey Wills (BDF-98, BRK-120, BKM-70, HAM-163, KEN-102, MDX-353, NTH- 163, OXF-152, SSX-141), with transcripts of or extracts from 1,853 of the wills. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~engsurry/ Trev

Many thanks for all the comments received as a result of my request for further information on crests and coats of arms associated with MARTER/MARTYR individuals and families. As a Brit who has now moved to Texas, USA, and as a family historian who has been on the trail of ALL English and Commonwealth persons with the family names of MARTER and MARTYR, for 15 years, I am more than aware of the problems of 'bogus' information in relation to all things heraldic. I have more than 2,500 names of MARTER, MARTIR, MARTAR, and MARTYR in family trees from Surrey, Kent and elsewhere in the Commonwealth (as was) and with the three seemingly 'genuine' crests and one confirmed granted coat of arms I have traced, all I am just trying to find out to whom they were originally granted, if indeed they were. As many of you have suggested the College of Arms is my next port of call but am trying to get 'all my ducks in a row' before incurring too much expense. Tony Marter -----Original Message----- From: ELIZABETH EVERS <[email protected]> To: eng-surrey <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jul 29, 2011 10:50 am Subject: Re: [SRY] Family Crests MARTER and MARTYR o expound on Mikes statement. I have lived in the USA for a number of years and ave tried to explain to people here that Coats of Arms are not given to a articular surname but to an individual and possibly their direct line. Sorry to ay a lot of Americans can not seem to grasp this concept. There are also a lot f bogus companies who will sell you a "family crest" even at some state fairs I ave attended and the number of people I see buying them. I even went to the rouble and expense of seeing what they would send for my surname. Surprise urprise I received one, but to my family members on this site....no we do not nd have never had a Coat of Arms. Mike I hope your explanation helps some of verseas cousins understand how this works. Elizabeth > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:17:49 -0400 From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SRY] Family Crests MARTER and MARTYR In England there is no such thing as a 'Family' crest. Coats of arms were awarded to individuals and can be passed down like other property to individuals. The fact you may share a name with sombody who, in the past, was awarded a coat of arms does not by any means mean you have an automatic right to lay claim to that item. Not even if you can prove some form of direct descendency from them.

To expound on Mikes statement. I have lived in the USA for a number of years and have tried to explain to people here that Coats of Arms are not given to a particular surname but to an individual and possibly their direct line. Sorry to say a lot of Americans can not seem to grasp this concept. There are also a lot of bogus companies who will sell you a "family crest" even at some state fairs I have attended and the number of people I see buying them. I even went to the trouble and expense of seeing what they would send for my surname. Surprise surprise I received one, but to my family members on this site....no we do not and have never had a Coat of Arms. Mike I hope your explanation helps some of overseas cousins understand how this works. Elizabeth > Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:17:49 -0400 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SRY] Family Crests MARTER and MARTYR > > In England there is no such thing as a 'Family' crest. > Coats of arms were awarded to individuals and can be passed down like > other property to individuals. > The fact you may share a name with sombody who, in the past, was awarded > a coat of arms does not by any means mean you have an automatic right to > lay claim to that item. Not even if you can prove some form of direct > descendency from them. > > > On 07/27/2011 11:57 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I am working on a family history publication of the MARTERs and MARTYRs of Surrey and Kent and have just commenced a chapter on coats of arms. But living in the USA in a relatively small town in Texas, (de-camped from UK in 2008) I am having trouble properly researching this area. To date, I have spent a huge numbers of hours trawling the Internet with some modicum of success and found reference to three crests described as follows: > > > > "MARTYR, Eng. An ostrich’s head, argent, collared, or, between two palm branches, vert." Earliest date for blazon is 1817 with the publication of Volume I of Alexander Deuchar’s British Crests. > > > > "MARTER, on a chapeau, gu., turned up erm., an eagle rising, ppr." Earliest date for blazon is 1851, with the publication of Volume II of J. P. Elven’s The Book of Family Crests. > > > > "MARTYR, a griffin segreant, or, wings indorsed, ar., (holding a rose, gu., stalked and leaved, ppr.)" Earliest date for blazon is 1854, with the issue of Elven’s The Book of Family Crests, Seventh Edition, Enlarged. > > > > These and many other references were all found at Internet Archives or Google eBooks but I am looking for any earlier descriptions of these crests that may be available, or indeed any other MARTER or MARTYR crests. Does anyone have reference to books that might help me to push blazon dates back further please? > > > > I have also noticed that some of the volumes have a single page inside colourfully illustrating either the full title of the volume or just a part of the title. Would these have been part of the original volume of added by an enthusiastic owner? Happy to scan these images and send to anyone who might be able to, or want to, help me out. > > > > Tony Marter > > *************************************** > > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In England there is no such thing as a 'Family' crest. Coats of arms were awarded to individuals and can be passed down like other property to individuals. The fact you may share a name with sombody who, in the past, was awarded a coat of arms does not by any means mean you have an automatic right to lay claim to that item. Not even if you can prove some form of direct descendency from them. On 07/27/2011 11:57 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Dear all, > > I am working on a family history publication of the MARTERs and MARTYRs of Surrey and Kent and have just commenced a chapter on coats of arms. But living in the USA in a relatively small town in Texas, (de-camped from UK in 2008) I am having trouble properly researching this area. To date, I have spent a huge numbers of hours trawling the Internet with some modicum of success and found reference to three crests described as follows: > > "MARTYR, Eng. An ostrich’s head, argent, collared, or, between two palm branches, vert." Earliest date for blazon is 1817 with the publication of Volume I of Alexander Deuchar’s British Crests. > > "MARTER, on a chapeau, gu., turned up erm., an eagle rising, ppr." Earliest date for blazon is 1851, with the publication of Volume II of J. P. Elven’s The Book of Family Crests. > > "MARTYR, a griffin segreant, or, wings indorsed, ar., (holding a rose, gu., stalked and leaved, ppr.)" Earliest date for blazon is 1854, with the issue of Elven’s The Book of Family Crests, Seventh Edition, Enlarged. > > These and many other references were all found at Internet Archives or Google eBooks but I am looking for any earlier descriptions of these crests that may be available, or indeed any other MARTER or MARTYR crests. Does anyone have reference to books that might help me to push blazon dates back further please? > > I have also noticed that some of the volumes have a single page inside colourfully illustrating either the full title of the volume or just a part of the title. Would these have been part of the original volume of added by an enthusiastic owner? Happy to scan these images and send to anyone who might be able to, or want to, help me out. > > Tony Marter > *************************************** > Send your List messages using **PLAIN TEXT** and always **TRIM AWAY** superfluous old messages in replies. > > List Admin can be contacted at: [email protected] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>From Northern Star and National Trades' Journal ( Leeds, England ), Saturday, June 28, 1845; Issue 398. POLICE INTELLIGENCE. SOUTHWARK. SATURDAY. - THE RIVAL ROSES. - William FIGGINS , a coachman, in the employment of a gentleman well known in the neighbourhood of the police-court, was brought up charged with an assault on a rival "John", he having smashed the nose of the said rival in an affray in the Blue Boar public-house. The prosecutor averred that he was saying "nothing at all, when Bill FIGGINS came up, and without saying ere a vord, gives him sich a precious lick on the nob as makes his eyes see all manner o' gas lights." The witnesses fully attested the fact, and master William having nothing to say in defence, " 'cepting that he was wery much aggrawated, " was fined 10 shillings and costs. The fine was immediately raised by the friend in court.