Hi-there, I was one of the ragged Orphan waifs of Southampton during the ww11 and I well remember the POW camps. I was known as Orphan Eddie and, because of my young pre-war years in the Rhonda Valley of South Wales, I had developed a bit of an accent and was often called 'Taffy' Lawrence. I often used to scrape through a gap in the barbed wire surround of the prisoner compound and freely mix with the German and Italian personel. I used smuggle in bundles of the 'Daily Mirror' newspaper and sing my scruffy head off amongst them. They used to give me some of thier rations. I recall, they were all very gentlemanly and proud of thier family photographs. Best regards, Edward. _________________________________________________________________ Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband

As enumerated: RG10/1989/55/7 - Towngate Street, Longfleet, Poole SIMS - Walter, boarder (in household of James Cowlin), married, 22, coach painter, born Southampton Hants '' - Amelia, boarder's wife, 23, born Jersey '' - Amelia, boarder's daughter, 1, born Southampton Hants RG10/1989/64/26 - Poole Union Workhouse, Longfleet, Poole ROGERS - Samuel, inmate, 11, scholar, born Southampton Hants RICKETTS - Charles, inmate, inmate, 13, scholar, born Southampton Hants RG10/1989/86 - on board the vessel "Joseph Wels" at Poole WILKINS - George, unmarried, 25, master, born Hants Southampton POINTER - William, married, 58, mate, born Hants Southampton RG10/1990/10/11 - Vicarage Mann House, Hamworthy RICKETS - James, servant (in household of Macnamara Patey, vicar), unmarried, 15, domestic servant, born Hampshire Southampton Hope these help someone. Sara

Hi, can someone with access to the 1851 Census help me find my GG Grandfather William TERRY. He was born abt 1846/7. I believe his father was William and his mother Henrietta. He had brothers Benjamin and Alfred who should also show on the census aged abt 2 and 3 years old. Thank you. Elaine (Southampton) ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822 ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest Volume 04 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: #1 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["clargo" ] #2 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] #3 Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Sou ["John" ] #4 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Syd and Judy Hockey" #5 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] #6 info on a Local company needed ["Chris & Caroline" Administrivia: To unsubscribe from ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D, send a message to ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. To contact the ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D list administrator, send mail to ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-admin@rootsweb.com. ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:00:10 +0100 From: "clargo" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the end of WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay Avenue, near where I lived at the time. The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. Perhaps that prompts some memories? Rod in Andover. ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 3 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:20:14 -0700 From: "Alandra" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alandra" To: "clargo" Cc: <[ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:12 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > Hi Rod, am sure I recall hearing about/possibly even seeing, some POW's at > Midanbury, Southampton when living there as a young child. There was a > field directly behind our home, and am remembering being told (probably by > other children) that the men we saw, at the bottom of the field near the bus > stops, this group of men had been working there, -- were German POW's, but > don't really remember the colour of their clothing, altho my imagination > tells me it was bright blue. (but maybe I'm thinking of the "demob suits" > colours : ) now you've got me wondering if they really were POW's. > Alandra > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "clargo" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:00 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > > As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the end of > > WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay Avenue, > > near where I lived at the time. > > The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember > > they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. > > Perhaps that prompts some memories? > > > > Rod in Andover. > > > > > > > > ============================== > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 4 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:53:56 +0100 From: "John" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Southampton David, Many thanks for your offer to send me a copy of the map (Ref 4043). I have another address for this family when they were on the other side of the railway in Sidford street, now also gone. I've had a bit of a computer hiccup so as I can not see any reply I might have sent to you I thought I should send again. Regards, John Noakes -- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 19/08/2004 ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:13:27 +0100 From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire Hello Everybody, Yes there were German prisoners of war at Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane and Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember seeing them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. Best regards, Syd Hockey. (Southampton) ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 6 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:56:55 -0700 From: "Alandra" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > Hi Syd, thanks for this info about the POW's definitely being at Midanbury! > : ) I've been thinking about this ever since, and wondering about it. > We lived at Vale Drive, so I know the street names that you mention : ) as > we left there when I was 13 / 14. Also remember the prefabs, and of > course, that would have been what they were working at there, -- I couldn't > for the life of me, think what they would be doing there, - that was the > puzzling part that was causing me to doubt whether they were really POW's > that I saw near the field by the bus stop at the bottom of Mousehole Lane, so > now that explains it! thanks. > There were also prefabs of a different type up in the Rossington Ave area, > (sortoff opposite Highview Way, which was across the field directly behind > us). I had friends living in both Rossington Ave and Highview Way. Also > had friends in Onibury Road. > Am wondering if you know any of the people that I knew in that area. > Alandra, BC Canada > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:13 PM > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > > > > Hello Everybody, > > Yes there were German prisoners of war at > > Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane and > > Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember > seeing > > them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. > > Best regards, > > Syd Hockey. (Southampton) > > > > > > > > ============================== > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 7 message/rfc822 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:37:44 +0100 From: "Chris & Caroline" To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: info on a Local company needed Has anyone on the list any information on the following STEBBINGS & Co, Nautical Instrument Makers of Canute Road, Southampton from around the 19th Century? They were situated next door to the Sailors Home and a NZ friend is trying to research the company. Any info would be appreciated, we know that a Sidney Frederick STEBBINGS who was the Chief Boot Steward on the Titanic but not sure if he was a part of the same family. Chris and Caroline --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

A new website called Vision of Britain has just been launched, it is still in its infancy and there are to be improvements to graphics and more information available. Click on the area you wish on the map and up will come statistics etc. A great website but visit the "What's Coming Next" page to get a better preview of what the site may offer. http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/index.php Chris and Caroline SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Just a note to remind you about the HGS Open Day on 26 September 2004 at Horndean Community School from 10am to 4pm. The HGS AGM will follow at 4.30pm. As well as the usual stands and other Family History Societies, there will be teams from the National Archives and the Family Record Centre in attendance and of course the always popular HGS Research Aids Of interest will be three free lectures :- 11.00 Jeanne Bunting What happens when I die? 13.00 John Hanson Whistle down the Internet - a whistle-stop tour of some sites that you may find of interest 14.30 Audrey Collins Tracing Your Ancestors at the FRC Full details available on the HGS website at www.hgs-online.org.uk but make a note in your diaries now if you are in driving distance of Horndean. Directions: Leave the A3M at Junction 2 and follow the signs for Catherington - cross over 2 roundabouts the main entrance is via Merchinstoun Road. The event is signposted from the road. Look forward to seeing you there Please email if you have any queries - Publicity@hgs-online.org.uk Take care Tony Knight HGS Publicity Officer __________________________________________________________________ Get Tiscali Broadband From £15:99 http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadbandhome/

We found this and thought we would pass it on, you can choose not only the county but the village and there are thousands of family history queries. Beware some of these you have to join to be able to reply to. Chris and Caroline http://www.curiousfox.com/uk/browse.lasso?-nothing --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Can anyone help identify the pub on our website? http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages/mysteries.htm It is the photo at the bottom of the page relating to SALTER Chris and Caroline SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Hi John I'm not sure what you mean by 'trace' this Mark Randell - do you think he may still be alive? Is he a relative of yours? You appear to know something about him and his father already, but I'm not clear what documentation you already have, like a birth certificate, entry in the 1891 and 1901 censuses, appearance in Directories or Voters Lists. etc. But if you tell us a bit more, I'm certain people here will be able to help you find out what you want to know. Cheers, Dave Jacobs =============== At 19:27 06/09/2004, john randall wrote: >hi i am trying to trace a mark randell (rendell) living at 12 cranbury >road eastleigh his father was edward he was living at this address in 1895 > >john > > > >============================== >You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from >http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/

Many thanks to Chris and Caroline for that in-depth explanation. Just as with the verbal expressions we use,we so often go about our lives in total ignorance of origins. Think of the difficulties the English language presents to L2 students trying to grasp our idioms. Try analysing "How do you do"? (Thanks be for our Oz "Goodday"!) And the old chestnut about the foreigner on the train who was told to "Look out!". He did,and had his head removed. Gerald

As a little bloke I lived in Woolston. Where did it get its name? I think I went to St Marks elementary school. Not exactly"good old golden rule days" for me. I duffed up the school bully. One teacher was a Mr Peterkin,who was a kindly figure. Another is forgettable,so I forget his name. A little rotund weasel of a man. We did "scripture". (I'm 82,and I've been anti-religion since I was ten!) This "teacher" quoted..."if a man shall smite thee on one cheek..." and told me to finish the quote. I did..."smite him on the other..." Whereupon he called me out for a caning. However,I picked up the heavy iron cube that was used to keep the door open,and hurled it at his midriff. No one,but no one was going to inflict corporal punishment on me,nor ever did. Naturally there was hell to pay,and I paid it. "Those were the days,my friend,we thought they'd never end..." Rather ironically,after much continent-hopping,a war,and bringing out 25 children from London to good old Oz in 1950,I became a school principal,and you can believe it or not,but I never once used corporal punishment on any child. Woolston...and Shirley...and Bitterne...is there a book which tells how all those suburbs of Swampton got their names? There's one for Canberra. One street in Page is named for one of my Hannaford relatives. Cheers, Gerald Bennett in Canberra

ORIGINS OF SOUTHAMPTON PLACE NAMES Coates 1989 WOOLSTON Old English 'Wulf's farm'. In 1284 a form 'Wolverichestone' appears apparently referring to this place, and this clearly means 'Wulfric's farm'. The two names could conceivably have referred to the same man, but the true significance of the alternating forms is not known. A Wulfric was the grantee of 7 hides of land at Millbrook, four miles away, by king Eadwig in 956 (document BCS 926, S 636). But the name was a common one and not too much should be read into this fact. SHIRLEY in Millbrook, suburb of Southampton There are two possibilities: either Old English 'bright wood/clearing', in a compound form with an uninflected adjective; or 'shire wood/clearing', but there is no evidence that a shiremoot ever met here. If such evidence ever turns up, it will probably show that the name dates from the period when Southampton was the capital of the county and gave it its name. Cf SHERFIELD-ON-LODDON, where Shirley hundred is also discussed. If the second interpretation is right, there may be an implied contrast between PORTSWOOD 'wood of the town' and Shirley 'wood of the shire'. Coates 1989 BITTERNE Ekwall derives this from hypothetical Old English 'byhtaern'='building by a bend' with reference to a 'horseshoe shaped ridge' close by. Gover accepts this formal origin but sees a reference, in 'byht' to the prominent bend in the river Itchen here; this is more likely. But old Bitterne is a good mile from the bend. An alternative possibility might be hypothetical 'bit(e)aern'='building for bits' ie: in one of the senses associated with tools or horse tackle. The word 'aern' in Old English often formed compounds with words denoting what it contained. It is generally thought that Bitterne riverside was the site of the Romano British town of 'Clausentum' and it is regularly marked on local maps. This name is interpreted by Rivet and Smith (1979) as if from British words meaning 'nail' and 'path', and they speculate that there was a causeway or pontoon or suchlike here to give rise to the name. However, this does not precisely suit the Antonine Itinerary distances to Winchester and Chichester, for which Wickham gives a better match (Rivet and Smith 1979: 166 7). The origin just proposed for the Romano British name is less obviously suitable for Wickham. For more names go to OLD HAMPSHIRE GAZETEER http://www.envf.port.ac.uk/hantsgaz/hantsgaz/hgdndx_f.htm Chris and Caroline -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Bennett [mailto:gerben@pcug.org.au] Sent: 07 September 2004 05:19 To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-SOU] Woolston As a little bloke I lived in Woolston. Where did it get its name? I think I went to St Marks elementary school. Not exactly"good old golden rule days" for me. I duffed up the school bully. One teacher was a Mr Peterkin,who was a kindly figure. Another is forgettable,so I forget his name. A little rotund weasel of a man. We did "scripture". (I'm 82,and I've been anti-religion since I was ten!) This "teacher" quoted..."if a man shall smite thee on one cheek..." and told me to finish the quote. I did..."smite him on the other..." Whereupon he called me out for a caning. However,I picked up the heavy iron cube that was used to keep the door open,and hurled it at his midriff. No one,but no one was going to inflict corporal punishment on me,nor ever did. Naturally there was hell to pay,and I paid it. "Those were the days,my friend,we thought they'd never end..." Rather ironically,after much continent-hopping,a war,and bringing out 25 children from London to good old Oz in 1950,I became a school principal,and you can believe it or not,but I never once used corporal punishment on any child. Woolston...and Shirley...and Bitterne...is there a book which tells how all those suburbs of Swampton got their names? There's one for Canberra. One street in Page is named for one of my Hannaford relatives. Cheers, Gerald Bennett in Canberra ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/2004 --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/2004

>Delivered-To: th_freeo-thejacobs-thejacobs@thejacobs.free-online.co.uk >MBOX-Line: From hope@carnicle.com Mon Sep 06 23:01:29 2004 >Delivered-To: dave:jacobs.net@netidentity.com >X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.200) > by mta6-1.us4.outblaze.com; 6 Sep 2004 23:01:29 -0000 >From: hope@carnicle.com >Subject: Search across the pond >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-admin@rootsweb.com >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:10:24 -0700 >X-Library: Indy 8.009B >X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 >X-Loop: dave@jacobs.net > >Dear List Administrator, > >I am administrator of a Freeman surname study group and would love to >include DNA test >results from our Freeman cousins from across the pond. > >I am hopeful that you might post my plea for participation on your >list. I am not currently >subscribed to your mailing list, so please reply to hope@carnicle.com. > >Thanking you most sincerely for your consideration. > >I have submitted this request to several lists, so please excuse any >duplication. > >Many of our family lines are known to have come from the British Isles, >but the documentation to >make the final connection does not exist. > >The New England, New York, New Jersey and Virginia family lines all have >traditional ties >back into the 1400-1600's with Great Britian and generations of >descendants have sought >the proof, but at one point or another have come up empty. We also have >many Freeman >family lines who emmigrated to the Carolinas who traditionally ties back >to the British Isles. > >Were the early colonists of Massachucetts and Connecticut for example >related to the >same common ancestor of the Freemans from, say New York, New Jersey and >Virginia? >DNA testing of desendants from these heretofore unattached family lines >may prove (or >disprove) a common line of descent. > >Some tantalizingly hopeful documents found for early Bensington, >Oxfordshire, England >may tie to my Freeman family...but that final proof is lacking. The >Virginia Freeman family >of Bridges Freeman also appears to tie back to this area of England as >well...and there >again we lack the documentary >evidence. > >DNA is the new era of family research that gives us the potential to >strech our ancestry >beyond the bounds of written documents...and I am very excited about its >prospects. We >have had many significant breakthroughs in correcting pedigrees, finding >"cousins" that we >never knew existed and have guided research efforts to the proper lines. > >If you are or know of a male descendant carrying the Freeman surname, >please consider >joining our DNA project. There are over 1,000 surname projects currently >active and looking >for participants from around the globe to join in this phenominal >adventure melding traditional >genealogical research with this advancing scientific tool. > >I have set up a web page at: www.carnicle.com/DNA_Project/ and invite you >to take a look >at our efforts in the area of DNA research. > >I would love to hear from you and include you among our members. > >Thank you >Hope Freeman Carnicle >Phoenix, Arizona USA >Descended from Judge Henry Freeman - 1600's >New Jersey Freeman family line > >PS I have no financial interest or receive no financial gains from >administrating this DNA study >group...but receive deep satisfaction whenever a member of our group >"finds" their true line of >descent. Melding traditional research with scientific advances.

Can anyone help? Information is wanted in respect of: 5831305 Pte William Charles SUMMERS 2nd Battalion Cambridgeshire Regt who was taken prisoner by the Japanese, sent to Changhi Camp, Singapore and forced to work on the Burma Railway and the bridge on the River Kwai. He died aged 29 on 16 April 1945 William was the son of William Jabouz SUMMERS and Sarah Ann Summers of Eastleigh. If anyone can give any information on this family or can put us in touch with any relatives that are still living we would appreciated it, as the person on whose behalf we are appealing has some personal items that belonged to the above, William Summers was a friend and fellow prisoner of their father, and would like to pass them on to any family members. So heres hoping the list can come up trumps once more Chris and Caroline --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/2004

hi i am trying to trace a mark randell (rendell) living at 12 cranbury road eastleigh his father was edward he was living at this address in 1895 john

Off topic but may be of interest Those that miss the homeland or would like to listen to SOUTHERN COUNTIES RADIO on the net can now do so. Go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/england/southerncounties/ Click on the box BBC RADIO PLAYER LISTEN LIVE You must have RealPlayer installed. Download the basic player for free http://uk.real.com/player/?&src=ZG.uk.idx,ZG.uk.rp.rp.hd.def See box on right hit the blue text NOT the download button And there is a list of other stations that may interest you and more local stations are coming on air over the next few months. Chris and Caroline SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/2004

Dear Dave: WOW - there is no other term to use! Thank you very much for all this work. I had decided that the marriage cert was crucial, so I wrote yesterday to the family member who had given me the info to see if she has it. If not, I will order it immed. I am just home on lunch, but I will go through all this tonight, but it certainly all appears to hang together so far. Thank you again. I will post again when I have it all confirmed! (Or if I get stuck!) Marion PS I wish I lived over there, you can accomplish so much in a shorter period. > Dear Marion > > I hope you will excuse my sending this to the list, but one of the > benefits > of a list is that replies may give other listers encouragement, hints > about > what can be easily found, and if they are inexperienced, methods of > attacking family history searches. > ---------------------------- Powered by Execulink Webmail http://www.execulink.com/

Hello Syd There is no sign of St George's Place on my 1855 Map, although there are a few small roads unnamed on it. Currently there is a St Georges Road, which is just south of Hoglands Park. Directories from the 1840's state that St George's Place was in Houndwell, but there is no map to locate it more precisely. Houndwell Park is to the west of Hoglands, and the Houndwell district is to the west and south of the park. Cheers, Dave Jacobs =============== At 19:50 01/09/2004, Syd and Judy Hockey wrote: >Hello Dave, > When you have a spare minute would you look at your old > map of SOUTHAMPTON to find St.GEORGES PLACE. I think it is in the parish > of St. MARY'S. I have just found a family member who died there in 1839, > and it would be interesting to know exactly where it was. >Thank you once again for your time. > Kind regards, > Syd Hockey.

Dear Marion I hope you will excuse my sending this to the list, but one of the benefits of a list is that replies may give other listers encouragement, hints about what can be easily found, and if they are inexperienced, methods of attacking family history searches. I don't know if you have already contacted the two Southampton sources I mentioned; if you have, much of what I have to tell you will be old hat; on the other hand, I'll assume you have not, so the sequence of my searches will make more sense. You told me that Elizabeth Emma Webb was married in Southampton on Oct 13, 1878, so I looked for that in the Southampton Card Index. It was not there, so I imagine the marriage was in the local Register Office - the card index has events in all the local churches, but not civil ceremonies. I had confirmed for myself that your family of McCalls were in Church Road St Mary Extra in 1881, so I looked for the baptisms of their two children. Again, nothing, so perhaps David McCall was not an Anglican. The card index does not have any Roman Catholic events, nor many other nonconformist events. Looks depressing so far? But wait! You found from the census returns (1881 and 1891) that EEW was born around 1860. I presume the ordering of the 1862 Birth Certificate was before you had this information. {One thing a new starter quickly learns is that there is reliable information (from original contemporary sources), fairly reliable information (such as indexes compiled later from original sources) and there is family oral history!!} I looked in the card index for EEW's baptism, and found this, which this looks like yours: 1861 January 27th, Elizabeth Emma Webb, at St Augustines church Northam. Parents Edmund Webb, coal dealer, and Sarah. If this is indeed your Elizabeth, the story of her father being called David seems to be in error. Later findings tend to indicate that these (Edmund and Sarah) are the right parents, but to be sure I would advise getting a copy of Elizabeth's marriage certificate, which will give the name and occupation of her father. A look at the 1861 census index of Southampton seemed called for here, and this revealed: RG9/673/72 schedule 91 Edmund WEBB, 32, born Tadley Sarah 30 born Brockenhurst William 24 born Tadley Edmund W 6 born Southampton Henry J 5 " Mary K 3 " Elizabeth 4 months " = This certainly is the family of the Elizabeth found earlier was born into. You will have to satisfy yourself that it is really your family. At present it is not quite certain, but I would put money on the fact that Elizabeth's marriage certificate will confirm it. The William is obviously not one of the children, and is very likely Edmund's younger brother. This also indicates that the family found in 1871 by your friend Jamie is the right one too, and we can reconstruct the family then as: RG10/1198/32 Sched 91 Edmund 42, Sarah 39, James 15, Kate 13, Elizabeth 10, Charles 8, Alfred 6, Walter 4, Hannah 2 The two older children now seem to be using their middle names - Henry J is now James, while Mary K is now Kate. The eldest son Edmund, now aged 16, is not at home. Finally, here is the family in 1881: =================================================== Census Place: Southampton All Sts, Hampshire, England Source: FHL Film 1341297 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1213 Folio 67 Page 4 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Edmund WEBB M 53 M Tadley, Hampshire, England Rel: Head Occ: Brewers Agent Sarah WEBB M 50 F Brockenhurst, Hampshire, England Rel: Wife Alfred WEBB 15 M Souton, Hampshire, England Rel: Son Walter WEBB 13 M Souton, Hampshire, England Rel: Son Anna WEBB 11 F Souton, Hampshire, England Rel: Daugh Occ: Scholar Kate DUCKWORTH M 23 F Souton, Hampshire, England Rel: Visitor Edith DUCKWORTH 2 F Souton, Hampshire, England Rel: Visitor ======================== Brewers agent seems to connect with what you said earlier about Elizabeth's father running a pub. Souton is obviously an abbreviation for Southampton. The parents do not appear in Southampton in 1891, so may have moved away, or died. They do not appear in the card index under burials, but then most burials took place then in the municipal cemeteries rather than city churchyards which had been closed. (Contact me later if you think they may have died here, as if they did it will be easy to find their burial details). == I looked at some of local Directories to see if any useful information could be obtained: 1855 ( the first in which Edmund appears): Webb, Edmund, grocer, Osbourn Rd, Bevois Hill 1861: Webb, Edmund, pit-wood merchant, Portswood 1871: Webb, Edmund, publican, 'Rose & Crown', Highfield 1883: Webb, Edmund, brewers agent, 23 Strand. == OK, we know Edmund and Sarah came into Southampton from other Hampshire villages - Tadley and Brockenhurst respectively, so when did they come, and when and where did they marry? The card index again, shows this marriage: 1853 June 12, at South Stoneham parish church Edmund Webb, carpenter, of Portswood, full age, bachelor Father Thomas Webb, carpenter and Sarah Humby, full age, spinster, of Portswood Father William Humby, farmer. Witnesses: Mary Bunney, Joseph Harbut === This fits perfectly with the children found in 1861. It also shows that by 1853, both were living in Portswood (just outside what was then Southampton, in the parish of South Stoneham). So where were they in 1851? A look at the index for Tadley shows: 1684/309 Thomas Webb 56, Mary 53 (born Hannington), William 12, Ann 12. Quite likely your family, as we know Edmund's father was Thomas, and he probably had a brother William. The age discrepancy with William is probably not significant. Edmund had already left home, but a look at the 1851 Southampton index does not show him. I didn't have time to look in South Stoneham, where he most likely was. Got to leave something for next time (or for your homework!) Finally, Brockenhurst in 1851 had: 1666/288 William 55 (born Lyndhurst), Elizabeth 48 (born Lyndhurst), James 23, Sarah 20, Edward 14, John 10 Looks good again. All this was done in just over an hour at Southampton civic centre - it's taken almost as long to type this out! There are some obvious steps to take when you have absorbed this. The McCall Webb marriage cert is the most urgent as all the rest is built on this rock, the assumption that it will show Elizabeth's father was called Edmund. Then copies of the actual census pages from all those censuses from 1851 to 1881 - we don't want to risk transcribers errors leading us astray do we? Then, if you have the money, copies of Elizabeth's birth cert, and the marriage cert for Webb and Humby 1853. For the latter though, I recommend getting a photocopy of the South Stoneham church marriage register page, as it will be cheaper, and will have their actual signatures. If you feel like having someone to talk through your future findings with, I'll be here. Cheers and good hunting, Dave Jacobs ========== At 00:25 02/09/2004, you wrote: >Dear Dave: > >Thanks for all the suggestions. > >Will Southampton archives just look things up for one? That's great. > > > >>My husband's gggrandmother was Elizabeth Emma Webb, born about 1860 in, > >> we>>believe, Southampton. > > == > > Is this evidence from a census, maybe? I couldn't find her either as Webb > > or McCall in the 1881 census. > > Or is her name from one of her children's birth certificates perhaps, and > > her age from her marriage certificate? > >The name is from family members, but I have researched more. They are at >St Mary Extra in the 1881 census, from the LDS, giving Southampton as >place of birth for Elizabeth. The names and ages of the parents are >correct, and the order of the first two children and their ages. One is >only 2 days old! (Their first child is my husband's grandfather.) > >She died about 1937 in Clydebank, and is buried at Dalnottar Cemetery in >Clydebank. > >I ordered and paid for the birth certificate. From the birth index fiche, >as family were sure she was born in 1862. (There was a delay, and the >certificate took four months to come.) > > >>"Our" Elizabeth Emma's parents are thought to be David & Sarah Webb. > > == > > What is the source for this, seeing the family in a census return? Have > > you looked at the 1871 Southampton Census? If not, why not ask the > > Southampton Local Studies Library ( E-mail: > > <mailto:local.studies@southampton.gov.uk>local.studies@southampton.gov.uk > > ) > > if they would look in their index? > >I will certainly try this. The information I had for this is from family >members. > >I have been sent all the Webbs from the 1871 census by a kind person and >have just gone through it all. > > > ==== > >>She got pregnant by and then married David McCall. > > == > > Married when and where? Does their marriage certificate say her father was > > David Webb? What occupation? I see there is a widow Sarah Webb, 61, in > > Southampton in 1881. > >According to family, they were married on Oct 13, 1878 in Southampton. I >have not seen the certificate. David McCall's occupation was Ship's rigger >at that time. > > > > ==== > >>I have the McCalls on the 1881 and 1891 censuses. In 1881 they were in St > >>Mary Extra. > > == > > Which McCalls? I couldn't find any there in 1881, maybe their name has > > been transcribed wrongly? > >Please see above. In the LDS (which is no guarantee, of course), their >name is shown as MC CALL. They have a boarder by the last name of >McMastur. Piece 1217/79 Page 34. > >I have only been doing this since about April this year - and you can >spend a small fortune at times. Eventually, I hope to get documentation >for everything. In the meantime, I do what I can to piece things together. > >All suggestions gratefully received. > >Thanks, Marion > >p.s. much of MY family is from Northern Ireland or Dorset. The Dorset list >is so helpful, but trying to get information out of Ireland is nigh >impossible! > > > >---------------------------- >Powered by Execulink Webmail >http://www.execulink.com/

Hello Dave, When you have a spare minute would you look at your old map of SOUTHAMPTON to find St.GEORGES PLACE. I think it is in the parish of St. MARY'S. I have just found a family member who died there in 1839, and it would be interesting to know exactly where it was. Thank you once again for your time. Kind regards, Syd Hockey.

Dear Jamie: Thank you so much for the information on the 1871 census. I did not expect to find any McCall's (sorry for the wild goose chase). He was a sailor (from Scotland) and not in port for long! I went through and searched all the ones marked Highfield. There were only a few differences in the folio, page and schedule numbers. So now I need to pick brains about these numbers in census info! It would seem to me that if the Enumeration district (8), piece (1198), folio (32) and schedule (91) numbers match, they would appear to be the same family - right? Now, the family I am looking at appears to go onto a second page, from page 15 to page 16. Could SKS please tell me if I am completely up the creek here?! We thought that Elizabeth was an only child, but this doesn't look that way. We also thought her father's name was David, but had no proof. Thanks! Marion > Hi Marion, > > I have looked at the southampton census for 1871 and found a Sarah 39 and > Elizabeth 10 living in Highfield (cant confirm they were at the same > address. There are no McCalls living in Southampton at the time under any > permutation of the name. > > I have attached the whole result for Webb surname for your perusal. Hope > this helps your research > > Kind regards > > Jamie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <mmcall@execulink.com> > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:35 AM > Subject: [ENG-SOU] WEBB, David & Sarah or Elizabeth Emma > > >> Hi, I am new to this list and wonder if anyone can help me. >> >> My husband's gggrandmother was Elizabeth Emma Webb, born about 1860 in, >> we >> believe, Southampton. The only E E Webb I have found was born in 1862 in >> Westminster. (Looks like I paid for one I don't need!!) >> >> "Our" Elizabeth Emma's parents are thought to be David & Sarah Webb. She >> got pregnant by and then married David McCall. I have the McCalls on the >> 1881 and 1891 censuses. In 1881 they were in St Mary Extra. By 1891 they >> were in Scotland. >> >> Can anyone help me find Elizabeth's birth, and perhaps her >> family/parents >> on the 1871 or 1861 census. I believe that her father was an innkeeper >> or >> similar, so might that help? >> >> Many thanks! >> >> Marion >> >> >> ---------------------------- >> Powered by Execulink Webmail >> http://www.execulink.com/ >> >> >> ============================== >> Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >> >> > ---------------------------- Powered by Execulink Webmail http://www.execulink.com/