Thanks for that clarification, Mush! That could explain the Sholing usage, then - as I recall, a number of Gypsy families (mostly the Bowers, I think - I went to St Monica School with some) lived at Botany Bay Road. Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Mush Carson" <edcarson1@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #153 > Hi-there all, seeing as it was me that started all this 'Mush' controversy, > I will put it to rest and inform you of the true facts of my name of 'Mush'. > When I was a very young man I was married to a fiery Romany maiden of tender > years whom used to explode into a fit of violent rage if I called her a > 'Didicoy' This being an insult to the true Gypsy Romany as the Didicoy was a > title describing a slightly lower class of Gypsy. The name 'Mush' actualy is > the Romany word for 'MAN - FRIEND' and was derived way back in Southampton > 'Ampshire when the wandering Gipsy nomads helped themselves to -- in this > case-- Corn from the surrounding fields; was boiled in water, and > there-after was called 'Mush.' To anybody that shared this meal the name of > 'Mush' affectionaly prevailed. It is more or less the same as how 'Scousers' > and other 'tucker-like' names stuck. From these facts, other parts of > England used the word 'Mush' and put their own conitations and uses of it. > True Mush ryhmes with Bush and Push. I, many years ago, being a true native > of Soton Dockland, feel I have the Ampshire right to relate these few words > on my name. Thankyou all for your interest, Best regards, --- 'MUSH' EDWARD > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband > > ______________________________

just "for the record", --- have just seen on tv news that the "bull on the freeway" episode happened in Texas someplace. Alandra please visit my photo "gallery" at http://www.thelensflare.com/u_alandrapal.php ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alandra" <alandra32@telus.net> > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 11:56 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > > > > thanks, Brian : ) > > someone was interested after all. > > Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, where we are having beautiful Fall > > weather, and no drooling cows in sight here, praise be : ) - but we saw > > on tv (CNN via dish) just now, this snorting bull running along an > > interstate highway somewhere in the USA for several miles, keeping up with > > huge "rigs" (tractor trailers), until he finally found his way off the > > freeway. At one point he spotted a man in a red shirt in a field beside > the > > freeway, and made a quick diversion to knock the man over, but then > returned > > to his jaunt down the freeway LOL. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> > > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:07 AM > > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > > > > > > > Dave wrote, "Alandra's note points out the problems of trying to > > demonstrate > > > pronunciation without access to (even with knowledge of) the phonetic > > > alphabet." > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > At first I couldn't see how this had anything to do with knowledge of, > or > > > ignorance of, the phonetic alphabet. In fact I thought the word you were > > > looking for was phonemics. <grin> > > > > > > I had always thought that the phonetic alphabet was to enable clarity > of, > > > for example, acronyms in speech. It has changed several times over the > > years > > > and over the organisation using it, but possibly the most common version > > now > > > starts Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta etc. > > > > > > However I see that there is a significant difference between 'phonetic > > > alphabet' and 'phonetic spelling' which is new to me - so learn > something > > > new every day, eh?? :-) > > > > > > Regards > > > Brian > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > > Version 6.0.766 Virus Database 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > > > > > > >

just "for the record", --- have just seen on tv news that the "bull on the freeway" episode happened in Texas someplace. Alandra please visit my photo "gallery" at http://www.thelensflare.com/u_alandrapal.php ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alandra" <alandra32@telus.net> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > thanks, Brian : ) > someone was interested after all. > Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, where we are having beautiful Fall > weather, and no drooling cows in sight here, praise be : ) - but we saw > on tv (CNN via dish) just now, this snorting bull running along an > interstate highway somewhere in the USA for several miles, keeping up with > huge "rigs" (tractor trailers), until he finally found his way off the > freeway. At one point he spotted a man in a red shirt in a field beside the > freeway, and made a quick diversion to knock the man over, but then returned > to his jaunt down the freeway LOL. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:07 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > > > > Dave wrote, "Alandra's note points out the problems of trying to > demonstrate > > pronunciation without access to (even with knowledge of) the phonetic > > alphabet." > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > At first I couldn't see how this had anything to do with knowledge of, or > > ignorance of, the phonetic alphabet. In fact I thought the word you were > > looking for was phonemics. <grin> > > > > I had always thought that the phonetic alphabet was to enable clarity of, > > for example, acronyms in speech. It has changed several times over the > years > > and over the organisation using it, but possibly the most common version > now > > starts Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta etc. > > > > However I see that there is a significant difference between 'phonetic > > alphabet' and 'phonetic spelling' which is new to me - so learn something > > new every day, eh?? :-) > > > > Regards > > Brian > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > Version 6.0.766 Virus Database 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 > > > > > > ============================== > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > ============================== > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > >

thanks, Brian : ) someone was interested after all. Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, where we are having beautiful Fall weather, and no drooling cows in sight here, praise be : ) - but we saw on tv (CNN via dish) just now, this snorting bull running along an interstate highway somewhere in the USA for several miles, keeping up with huge "rigs" (tractor trailers), until he finally found his way off the freeway. At one point he spotted a man in a red shirt in a field beside the freeway, and made a quick diversion to knock the man over, but then returned to his jaunt down the freeway LOL. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > Dave wrote, "Alandra's note points out the problems of trying to demonstrate > pronunciation without access to (even with knowledge of) the phonetic > alphabet." > > Hi Dave, > > At first I couldn't see how this had anything to do with knowledge of, or > ignorance of, the phonetic alphabet. In fact I thought the word you were > looking for was phonemics. <grin> > > I had always thought that the phonetic alphabet was to enable clarity of, > for example, acronyms in speech. It has changed several times over the years > and over the organisation using it, but possibly the most common version now > starts Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta etc. > > However I see that there is a significant difference between 'phonetic > alphabet' and 'phonetic spelling' which is new to me - so learn something > new every day, eh?? :-) > > Regards > Brian > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > Version 6.0.766 Virus Database 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 > > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

Dave wrote, "Alandra's note points out the problems of trying to demonstrate pronunciation without access to (even with knowledge of) the phonetic alphabet." Hi Dave, At first I couldn't see how this had anything to do with knowledge of, or ignorance of, the phonetic alphabet. In fact I thought the word you were looking for was phonemics. <grin> I had always thought that the phonetic alphabet was to enable clarity of, for example, acronyms in speech. It has changed several times over the years and over the organisation using it, but possibly the most common version now starts Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta etc. However I see that there is a significant difference between 'phonetic alphabet' and 'phonetic spelling' which is new to me - so learn something new every day, eh?? :-) Regards Brian Incoming mail is certified Virus Free Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version 6.0.766 Virus Database 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004

All I can say to that Ed is Thanks Mush!! LOL Chris -----Original Message----- From: Ed Mush Carson [mailto:edcarson1@hotmail.com] Sent: 18 September 2004 23:35 To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #153 Hi-there all, seeing as it was me that started all this 'Mush' controversy, I will put it to rest and inform you of the true facts of my name of 'Mush'. When I was a very young man I was married to a fiery Romany maiden of tender years whom used to explode into a fit of violent rage if I called her a 'Didicoy' This being an insult to the true Gypsy Romany as the Didicoy was a title describing a slightly lower class of Gypsy. The name 'Mush' actualy is the Romany word for 'MAN - FRIEND' and was derived way back in Southampton 'Ampshire when the wandering Gipsy nomads helped themselves to -- in this case-- Corn from the surrounding fields; was boiled in water, and there-after was called 'Mush.' To anybody that shared this meal the name of 'Mush' affectionaly prevailed. It is more or less the same as how 'Scousers' and other 'tucker-like' names stuck. From these facts, other parts of England used the word 'Mush' and put their own conitations and uses of it. True Mush ryhmes with Bush and Push. I, many years ago, being a true native of Soton Dockland, feel I have the Ampshire right to relate these few words on my name. Thankyou all for your interest, Best regards, --- 'MUSH' EDWARD _________________________________________________________________ Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Hi-there all, seeing as it was me that started all this 'Mush' controversy, I will put it to rest and inform you of the true facts of my name of 'Mush'. When I was a very young man I was married to a fiery Romany maiden of tender years whom used to explode into a fit of violent rage if I called her a 'Didicoy' This being an insult to the true Gypsy Romany as the Didicoy was a title describing a slightly lower class of Gypsy. The name 'Mush' actualy is the Romany word for 'MAN - FRIEND' and was derived way back in Southampton 'Ampshire when the wandering Gipsy nomads helped themselves to -- in this case-- Corn from the surrounding fields; was boiled in water, and there-after was called 'Mush.' To anybody that shared this meal the name of 'Mush' affectionaly prevailed. It is more or less the same as how 'Scousers' and other 'tucker-like' names stuck. From these facts, other parts of England used the word 'Mush' and put their own conitations and uses of it. True Mush ryhmes with Bush and Push. I, many years ago, being a true native of Soton Dockland, feel I have the Ampshire right to relate these few words on my name. Thankyou all for your interest, Best regards, --- 'MUSH' EDWARD _________________________________________________________________ Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband

Hi All Alandra's note points out the problems of trying to demonstrate pronunciation without access to (even with knowledge of) the phonetic alphabet. For example the spelling moosh may be taken as rhyming with push, but might equally be a rhyme with ruche. The only safe thing is to demonstrate by means of a rhyme with a word that only has one pronunciation in English and American. For the English(?) slang term 'mush', a good rhyme is bush. People have commented on the possible origins of this word, and Alan McGowan has given us a Romany origin. Opinions on the extent of use of the word have settled generally on the Southern Counties of England, but with some usage further north. So I consulted all the dictionaries I have. My etymological dictionary doesn't have it, neither does the huge Shorter Oxford Dictionary . Finally I looked at Chapman's 'American Slang' which someone gave me years ago, and was amazed to find it listed! Mush or moosh: n fr middle 1800s. The face, esp the mouth and jaws. He pulled his mush away from the plate and sighed - Jeremy Weldman (origin unknown) No mention of the 'mate' connotation though. Cheers, Dave Jacobs =============== At 00:58 18/09/2004, clargo wrote: >Hello everybody, > >Mush was used by us Westend lads in 1950's but one correction is that >"isn't" was not used in that area. >It was "aint it" or "init" > >"Gernight" from Rod in Andover. > > >============================== >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Hello Elaine I found this in the 1851 Southampton Census indexes Ref ; HO 107/1669 followed by page number Terry Wiiliam age 5 born Dibden page 822 William age 29 born Portsea page 821 Henrietta age 30 born Dibden page 822 Alfred age 1 born Southampton page 822 Benjamin age 2 born Southampton page 822 Surprise, surprise Sarah age 3 mths born Southampton page 822 If you e-mail the special collections at the library, they will in fact scan & send back the relevant pages for you, but you must provide the reference & page numbers. Hope this helps, Debbie >-- Original Message -- >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:21:18 +0100 >From: Dave Jacobs <Dave@Jacobs.net> >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] William TERRY >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com > > >Hi Elaine. > >This would be in Southampton, would it? > >If you actually live in Southampton, why not call in to the Special Studies > >section of the Central Library,and take a look at the 1851 census indexes > >for yourself. You'll find they also have indexes to 1861, 1871 and 1891 > >there too. > >Good hunting, Dave Jacobs >==================== > >At 16:31 15/09/2004, Elaine Lawrence wrote: >>Hi, can someone with access to the 1851 Census help me find my GG >>Grandfather William TERRY. He was born abt 1846/7. I believe his father > >>was William and his mother Henrietta. He had brothers Benjamin and Alfred > >>who should also show on the census aged abt 2 and 3 years old. Thank you. >> >>Elaine (Southampton) >> >>ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822 >> >>ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest Volume 04 : Issue 140 >> >>Today's Topics: >>#1 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["clargo" ] >>#2 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] >>#3 Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Sou ["John" ] >>#4 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Syd and Judy Hockey" #5 Re: >>[ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] >>#6 info on a Local company needed ["Chris & Caroline" >>Administrivia: >>To unsubscribe from ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D, send a message to >> >>ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com >> >>that contains in the body of the message the command >> >>unsubscribe >> >>and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software >>requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. >> >>To contact the ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D list administrator, send mail to >>ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:00:10 +0100 >>From: "clargo" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> >>As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the end of >>WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay Avenue, >>near where I lived at the time. >>The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember >>they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. >>Perhaps that prompts some memories? >> >>Rod in Andover. >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 3 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:20:14 -0700 >>From: "Alandra" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Alandra" >>To: "clargo" >>Cc: <[ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:12 AM >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> >> >> > Hi Rod, am sure I recall hearing about/possibly even seeing, some POW's >at >> > Midanbury, Southampton when living there as a young child. There was >a >> > field directly behind our home, and am remembering being told (probably >by >> > other children) that the men we saw, at the bottom of the field near >the >>bus >> > stops, this group of men had been working there, -- were German POW's, >but >> > don't really remember the colour of their clothing, altho my imagination >> > tells me it was bright blue. (but maybe I'm thinking of the "demob suits" >> > colours : ) now you've got me wondering if they really were POW's. >> > Alandra >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "clargo" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:00 AM >> > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> > >> > >> > > As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the >end >>of >> > > WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay >>Avenue, >> > > near where I lived at the time. >> > > The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember >> > > they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. >> > > Perhaps that prompts some memories? >> > > >> > > Rod in Andover. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ============================== >> > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >> > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >> > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >> > > >> > > >> > >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 4 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:53:56 +0100 >>From: "John" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Southampton >> >>David, >> >>Many thanks for your offer to send me a copy of the map (Ref 4043). >>I have another address for this family when they were on the other side >of >>the railway in Sidford street, now also gone. >> >>I've had a bit of a computer hiccup so as I can not see any reply I might >>have sent to you I thought I should send again. >> >>Regards, >>John Noakes >> >> >> >>-- >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 19/08/2004 >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:13:27 +0100 >>From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> >>Hello Everybody, >>Yes there were German prisoners of war at >>Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane and >>Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember seeing >>them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. >>Best regards, >>Syd Hockey. (Southampton) >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 6 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:56:55 -0700 >>From: "Alandra" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> >> > Hi Syd, thanks for this info about the POW's definitely being at >>Midanbury! >> > : ) I've been thinking about this ever since, and wondering about it. >> > We lived at Vale Drive, so I know the street names that you mention : >) >>as >> > we left there when I was 13 / 14. Also remember the prefabs, and of >> > course, that would have been what they were working at there, -- I >>couldn't >> > for the life of me, think what they would be doing there, - that was >the >> > puzzling part that was causing me to doubt whether they were really POW's >> > that I saw near the field by the bus stop at the bottom of Mousehole >Lane, >>so >> > now that explains it! thanks. >> > There were also prefabs of a different type up in the Rossington Ave >area, >> > (sortoff opposite Highview Way, which was across the field directly behind >> > us). I had friends living in both Rossington Ave and Highview Way. Also >> > had friends in Onibury Road. >> > Am wondering if you know any of the people that I knew in that area. >> > Alandra, BC Canada >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:13 PM >> > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Hello Everybody, >> > > Yes there were German prisoners of war at >> > > Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane >>and >> > > Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember >> > seeing >> > > them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. >> > > Best regards, >> > > Syd Hockey. (Southampton) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ============================== >> > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >> > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >> > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >> > > >> > > >> > >> >>______________________________ >> >> > ATTACHMENT part 7 message/rfc822 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:37:44 +0100 >>From: "Chris & Caroline" >>To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: info on a Local company needed >> >>Has anyone on the list any information on the following >>STEBBINGS & Co, Nautical Instrument Makers of Canute Road, Southampton >>from around the 19th Century? >>They were situated next door to the Sailors Home and a NZ friend is >>trying to research the company. >>Any info would be appreciated, we know that a Sidney Frederick STEBBINGS >>who was the Chief Boot Steward on the Titanic but not sure if he was a >>part of the same family. >>Chris and Caroline >> >>--- >>All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl >>updates >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 >> >> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! >> >> >>============================== >>Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >>Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > >============================== >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > __________________________________________________________________ Get Tiscali Broadband From £15:99 http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadbandhome/

Hello everybody, Mush was used by us Westend lads in 1950's but one correction is that "isn't" was not used in that area. It was "aint it" or "init" "Gernight" from Rod in Andover.

That is also used in Hampshire Brian!! But some chaps on our Royal Signals list say it is used up north to mean a mate! Probably will never know the real origin though. Chris SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages -----Original Message----- From: Brian [mailto:beejaycave@btinternet.com] Sent: 17 September 2004 18:55 To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] MUSH Dave asked, " Just how far ranging is it I wonder? Hi Dave, In that context, southern counties it seems, although I guess it is used to mean mouth/face in London - for example:- 'He hit him in the mush' Regards Brian Incoming mail is certified Virus Free Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Dave asked, " Just how far ranging is it I wonder? Hi Dave, In that context, southern counties it seems, although I guess it is used to mean mouth/face in London - for example:- 'He hit him in the mush' Regards Brian Incoming mail is certified Virus Free Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

Hi Elaine. This would be in Southampton, would it? If you actually live in Southampton, why not call in to the Special Studies section of the Central Library,and take a look at the 1851 census indexes for yourself. You'll find they also have indexes to 1861, 1871 and 1891 there too. Good hunting, Dave Jacobs ==================== At 16:31 15/09/2004, Elaine Lawrence wrote: >Hi, can someone with access to the 1851 Census help me find my GG >Grandfather William TERRY. He was born abt 1846/7. I believe his father >was William and his mother Henrietta. He had brothers Benjamin and Alfred >who should also show on the census aged abt 2 and 3 years old. Thank you. > >Elaine (Southampton) > >ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822 > >ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest Volume 04 : Issue 140 > >Today's Topics: >#1 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["clargo" ] >#2 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] >#3 Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Sou ["John" ] >#4 Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Syd and Judy Hockey" #5 Re: >[ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshi ["Alandra" ] >#6 info on a Local company needed ["Chris & Caroline" >Administrivia: >To unsubscribe from ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D, send a message to > >ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D-request@rootsweb.com > >that contains in the body of the message the command > >unsubscribe > >and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software >requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > >To contact the ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D list administrator, send mail to >ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-admin@rootsweb.com. > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:00:10 +0100 >From: "clargo" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > >As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the end of >WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay Avenue, >near where I lived at the time. >The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember >they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. >Perhaps that prompts some memories? > >Rod in Andover. > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 3 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 02:20:14 -0700 >From: "Alandra" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alandra" >To: "clargo" >Cc: <[ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:12 AM >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > > Hi Rod, am sure I recall hearing about/possibly even seeing, some POW's at > > Midanbury, Southampton when living there as a young child. There was a > > field directly behind our home, and am remembering being told (probably by > > other children) that the men we saw, at the bottom of the field near the >bus > > stops, this group of men had been working there, -- were German POW's, but > > don't really remember the colour of their clothing, altho my imagination > > tells me it was bright blue. (but maybe I'm thinking of the "demob suits" > > colours : ) now you've got me wondering if they really were POW's. > > Alandra > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "clargo" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 2:00 AM > > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > > > > > As a follow up to the message from Chris and Caroline, towards the end >of > > > WW2 there was a POW camp at Thornhill in land adjacent to Kootenay >Avenue, > > > near where I lived at the time. > > > The 'inhabitants' were not only Germans but some Italians and I remember > > > they wore brown uniforms with a blue square on their backs. > > > Perhaps that prompts some memories? > > > > > > Rod in Andover. > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 4 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 16:53:56 +0100 >From: "John" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] Clifton Terrace, Southampton > >David, > >Many thanks for your offer to send me a copy of the map (Ref 4043). >I have another address for this family when they were on the other side of >the railway in Sidford street, now also gone. > >I've had a bit of a computer hiccup so as I can not see any reply I might >have sent to you I thought I should send again. > >Regards, >John Noakes > > > >-- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 7.0.262 / Virus Database: 264.6.4 - Release Date: 19/08/2004 > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 5 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 20:13:27 +0100 >From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > >Hello Everybody, >Yes there were German prisoners of war at >Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane and >Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember seeing >them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. >Best regards, >Syd Hockey. (Southampton) > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 6 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:56:55 -0700 >From: "Alandra" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > Hi Syd, thanks for this info about the POW's definitely being at >Midanbury! > > : ) I've been thinking about this ever since, and wondering about it. > > We lived at Vale Drive, so I know the street names that you mention : ) >as > > we left there when I was 13 / 14. Also remember the prefabs, and of > > course, that would have been what they were working at there, -- I >couldn't > > for the life of me, think what they would be doing there, - that was the > > puzzling part that was causing me to doubt whether they were really POW's > > that I saw near the field by the bus stop at the bottom of Mousehole Lane, >so > > now that explains it! thanks. > > There were also prefabs of a different type up in the Rossington Ave area, > > (sortoff opposite Highview Way, which was across the field directly behind > > us). I had friends living in both Rossington Ave and Highview Way. Also > > had friends in Onibury Road. > > Am wondering if you know any of the people that I knew in that area. > > Alandra, BC Canada > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Syd and Judy Hockey" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] POW Camps in Hampshire > > > > > > > > > > Hello Everybody, > > > Yes there were German prisoners of war at > > > Midanbury, they were building prefabs at the bottom of Mousehole Lane >and > > > Vanguard Road. I lived at Wakefield Road as a child and do remember > > seeing > > > them, I have also checked this with my mother and she confirmed it. > > > Best regards, > > > Syd Hockey. (Southampton) > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > > > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > >______________________________ > > > ATTACHMENT part 7 message/rfc822 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:37:44 +0100 >From: "Chris & Caroline" >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: info on a Local company needed > >Has anyone on the list any information on the following >STEBBINGS & Co, Nautical Instrument Makers of Canute Road, Southampton >from around the 19th Century? >They were situated next door to the Sailors Home and a NZ friend is >trying to research the company. >Any info would be appreciated, we know that a Sidney Frederick STEBBINGS >who was the Chief Boot Steward on the Titanic but not sure if he was a >part of the same family. >Chris and Caroline > >--- >All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl >updates >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 > > > > >--------------------------------- > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > > >============================== >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

That's right, it was always applied to boys and men, never girls as far as I can recall. I think we spell it 'mush' because it rhymes exactly with the word bush. Not moo sh like a drooling cow, by the way. In my experience it was mostly used in a friendly jocular fashion, but also sometimes in a threatening way 'Look here mush...' I'm pretty sure it was used in my youth in Portsmouth, and also in the Wiltshire village I spent some school days in. Just how far ranging is it I wonder? Dave Jacobs, Southampton =================== At 21:35 16/09/2004, Alandra wrote: >Remember my dad and uncles calling each other "Mush" when we lived in >Midanbury, Southampton, many years ago. But think we should explain the >pronunciation for people in North America, and other places, who might not >know that it's pronounced "Moosh", not "mush". Out here, "mush" is slang >for "porridge/oatmeal, or cornmeal "mush" LOL. >Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, born and raised in Hampshire >----- Original Message ----- >From: "sbolt" <sbolt@beeb.net> >To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:56 PM >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > And I thought it was just a Sholing term of endearment! > > > > Sara > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> > > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > > > > Chris & Caroline wrote, "Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire >that > > > is!! (Isn't it!)" > > > > > > Well, maybe - but I always thought it was a 'silig' Sussex endearment - > > them > > > as is strong in arm and thick in 'ead! <grin> > > > > > > Regards > > > Brian > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > > Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > ============================== > > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > > > > > > > >============================== >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Well, now we are getting into the discrepancies in the English language : ) with lovely drooling cows as illustrations, too funny. Not that it's important, but meant to post again to be more specific about the pronunciation of the word "mush". -- was going to add later that it rhymed with "push", but didn't get round to it. Was expecting someone to correct me : ) - that is, if anyone even noticed. Was trying to be sure that people didn't think it had the "soft U', as in "up", so over-corrected somewhat I guess, -- (as if anyone might be even interested : ) But since you commented on this, Dave, -- As with many words in the English language, - there are always exceptions to the rule, - for example, how about the word "Rush" ?? It looks like "bush" and "push" but doesn't sound like those examples. "Rush" rhymes exactly with "Mush", right? -- the porridge type I mean : ) but not with "your" Mush, the form of male endearment towards each other. Alandra, BC, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Jacobs" <Dave@Jacobs.net> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:09 AM Subject: [ENG-SOU] MUSH > That's right, it was always applied to boys and men, never girls as far as > I can recall. > I think we spell it 'mush' because it rhymes exactly with the word bush. > Not moo sh like a drooling cow, by the way. > In my experience it was mostly used in a friendly jocular fashion, but also > sometimes in a threatening way 'Look here mush...' > I'm pretty sure it was used in my youth in Portsmouth, and also in the > Wiltshire village I spent some school days in. Just how far ranging is it > I wonder? > > Dave Jacobs, Southampton > =================== > > At 21:35 16/09/2004, Alandra wrote: > >Remember my dad and uncles calling each other "Mush" when we lived in > >Midanbury, Southampton, many years ago. But think we should explain the > >pronunciation for people in North America, and other places, who might not > >know that it's pronounced "Moosh", not "mush". Out here, "mush" is slang > >for "porridge/oatmeal, or cornmeal "mush" LOL. > >Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, born and raised in Hampshire > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "sbolt" <sbolt@beeb.net> > >To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:56 PM > >Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > > > > And I thought it was just a Sholing term of endearment! > > > > > > Sara > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> > > > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:01 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > > > > > > > Chris & Caroline wrote, "Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire > >that > > > > is!! (Isn't it!)" > > > > > > > > Well, maybe - but I always thought it was a 'silig' Sussex endearment - > > > them > > > > as is strong in arm and thick in 'ead! <grin> > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > > > Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > > > > > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > > > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >============================== > >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > > > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >

And I thought it was just a Sholing term of endearment! Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > Chris & Caroline wrote, "Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire that > is!! (Isn't it!)" > > Well, maybe - but I always thought it was a 'silig' Sussex endearment - them > as is strong in arm and thick in 'ead! <grin> > > Regards > Brian > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > ______________________________

Remember my dad and uncles calling each other "Mush" when we lived in Midanbury, Southampton, many years ago. But think we should explain the pronunciation for people in North America, and other places, who might not know that it's pronounced "Moosh", not "mush". Out here, "mush" is slang for "porridge/oatmeal, or cornmeal "mush" LOL. Alandra, British Columbia, Canada, born and raised in Hampshire ----- Original Message ----- From: "sbolt" <sbolt@beeb.net> To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > And I thought it was just a Sholing term of endearment! > > Sara > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian" <beejaycave@btinternet.com> > To: <ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:01 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > Chris & Caroline wrote, "Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire that > > is!! (Isn't it!)" > > > > Well, maybe - but I always thought it was a 'silig' Sussex endearment - > them > > as is strong in arm and thick in 'ead! <grin> > > > > Regards > > Brian > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > > > ______________________________ > > > > ============================== > You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from > http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > >

Hello All This may or my not help...I went to a school reunion at Foundry Lane school, Shirley, Southampton last year. During the tour of the school, we were told that there was a POW camp on the grounds of the school in WW2...I know nothing more than that. Debbie >-- Original Message -- >From: "Chris & Caroline" <chris@chayles.freeserve.co.uk> >Subject: RE: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 >Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:46:56 +0100 >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com > > > >I have been trying to get some history on the POW camps in Hampshire Ed >but not much on the net except locations and camp numbers. >Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire that is!! (Isn't it!) >Chris and Caroline >SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) >The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties > >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ed Mush Carson [mailto:edcarson1@hotmail.com] >Sent: 15 September 2004 22:25 >To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 > > > > > >Hi-there, I was one of the ragged Orphan waifs of Southampton during the > >ww11 and I well remember the POW camps. I was known as Orphan Eddie and, > >because of my young pre-war years in the Rhonda Valley of South Wales, I >had >developed a bit of an accent and was often called 'Taffy' Lawrence. I >often >used to scrape through a gap in the barbed wire surround of the prisoner > >compound and freely mix with the German and Italian personel. I used >smuggle >in bundles of the 'Daily Mirror' newspaper and sing my scruffy head off >amongst them. They used to give me some of thier rations. I recall, they > >were all very gentlemanly and proud of thier family photographs. >Best regards, Edward. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband > > >============================== >Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration >Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > >--- >All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl >updates >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 > > > >============================== >You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from >http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/ > __________________________________________________________________ Get Tiscali Broadband From £15:99 http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadbandhome/

Chris & Caroline wrote, "Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire that is!! (Isn't it!)" Well, maybe - but I always thought it was a 'silig' Sussex endearment - them as is strong in arm and thick in 'ead! <grin> Regards Brian Incoming mail is certified Virus Free Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version 6.0.760 Virus Database 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004

I have been trying to get some history on the POW camps in Hampshire Ed but not much on the net except locations and camp numbers. Love the email addy Mush!! Proper 'Ampshire that is!! (Isn't it!) Chris and Caroline SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) The History of the villages of Hampshire and its surrounding counties http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~villages -----Original Message----- From: Ed Mush Carson [mailto:edcarson1@hotmail.com] Sent: 15 September 2004 22:25 To: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-SOU] RE: ENG-SOUTHAMPTON-D Digest V04 #150 Hi-there, I was one of the ragged Orphan waifs of Southampton during the ww11 and I well remember the POW camps. I was known as Orphan Eddie and, because of my young pre-war years in the Rhonda Valley of South Wales, I had developed a bit of an accent and was often called 'Taffy' Lawrence. I often used to scrape through a gap in the barbed wire surround of the prisoner compound and freely mix with the German and Italian personel. I used smuggle in bundles of the 'Daily Mirror' newspaper and sing my scruffy head off amongst them. They used to give me some of thier rations. I recall, they were all very gentlemanly and proud of thier family photographs. Best regards, Edward. _________________________________________________________________ Check out news, entertainment and more @ http://xtra.co.nz/broadband ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004 --- All of our outgoing mail is checked and certified Virus Free by regularl updates Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.760 / Virus Database: 509 - Release Date: 10/09/2004