As I have said before: 1. Queries about mail which does not reach the list need to be directed to me at eng-shropshire-plus-admin@rootsweb.com NOT to the list in general. 2. The thresholds on this list (mail size) are low, to prevent ANY HTML posts getting through (some lists have higher thresholds which allows HTML mail through which then appears as a garbled mess). However, all "trapped" emails are reviewed manually. If I see a message of length I can always manually accept it, and do use this option. 3. Mails which are rejected back to you, will be accompanied by a short note from me as to why they have been rejected. To query the rejection you MUST use the Admin address and not the reply feature-because using the reply feature sends them back to the server and the robot doesn't know to send them on to me and so they just get binned. Please note that once I have dealt with a trapped message the message is lost so if you need to ask for guidance it helps if you can ATTACH (not forward) a copy of your original email so I can see what is going on. 4. Bounces are something else entirely-they either mean you typoed the address, used blind copy in the email or that the server is down/has a problem which Admin can't do anything about. That said rejected messages come from an email address which includes the word "bounces" so be careful to read whether it is a server bounce (i.e. your message has not been delivered because the destination is not known" type message) or a rejection (normally starts with "your message was too big;". Yesterday there were a lot of trapped messages. Some were clearly in HTML, in others it was not obvious. A few were long BUT that in itself was not the problem, (see 2 above) the problem was that they were incomplete at the bottom and the properties said they contained HTML. I hope this helps explain the situation. If you have further queries please let me know (at Admin). I appreciate it can be frustrating and it is not my intention to alienate anyone or knowingly drive you batty! I simply want the list to run so that messages are to the point and "legible" not some garbled ramblings with "=20" in the middle of every other word! Best wishes Sherry Landa (Admin, Oxford UK)

Hi everyone, I have had no mail all year until yesterday. I have sent several messages, most of them have bounced and the others that appear to have been successfully sent have not appeared on the list. There would appear to be something amiss in the system. Greetings to all from Down Under. Margaret Felthouse. Dear all I have tried to send three messages in reply to everyone else's, but my messages keep getting rejected on the grounds I'm using html. I don't believe I am (my gmail is set to plain text). I'm going to send this as a short message in the first instance, as my message length might be a problem (I included census records). In the meantime, hoping this gets through - I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their replies! I'm not ignoring you ..... And could someone please let me know if this gets through, and if so I'll try splitting. Thanks, Alison

And this is the e mail I sent this afternoon (without knowing the list had not received the other). ---------------------------------- Dear all Again, thanks for your replies on this. Re the suggestion it could be Emily BRYAN, thanks for this but I've no idea who she is! There is a possibility she could be a daughter in law (I need to do some research). I now have 3 different ages: 1. The corrected death certificate has him down as born in 1834. First it was 1818. 2. Marriage certificate points to birth in 1828. 3. Census records point to ~1819. 4. I thought I had identified the baptism record via IGI, as 1819 (same name as parents on 1841). If Richard had lied his way through the census records (why?) and he's really much younger. Then I've perhaps attached the wrong Richard for the 1841 and his parents are different people. If you see the 1841 census, the Richard noted is the oldest child. However the Richard b. 1819, is a Miller. The Richard in the marriage / death certificate is a Miller too. How many Richard BRYANs who are Millers were there in that part of the world?! One thing, my g grandfather (Richard's son) always maintained he was Irish. To date, via records I've found no indication this family has an Irish connection. Just Worcs origins, which is another thing I find slightly peculiar. Alison

/cont part 3 -------------------------- 1891 St Mary, Bridgnorth 34 48 Listley Street 1 2 Sarah A BRYAN Head Wid 58 - - Worcestershire Bromsgrove - Robert BRYAN Son S 31 Groom Employed Worcestershire Bromsgrove - William BRYAN Son S 26 Kennelman Employed Staffordshire Wordsley - Sarah A BRYAN Daur S 24 General Servant Employed Staffordshire Wordsley - Charles E BRYAN Son S 15 Carpet Weaver Employed Salop Eardington - Mary I BRYAN Daur S 12 Scholar - Salop Eardington - Arthur BRYAN Grandson S 11 Scholar - Salop Eardington - Marion BRYAN Grand daughter S 4 Scholar - Salop Astley Abbot - -------------------------- 1881 Shifnal 201 Shrewsbury Fields Richard BRYAN Lodger Mar 62 Miller Worcester - 1881 - rest of family Chetton 73 Woodlands Lodge 1 Sarah A BRYAN Wife Mar 45 (crossed out - Flour Millers Wife Worstershire Bromsgrove - Walter T BRYAN Son Unm 18 Gardener (Domestic Serv) Worcestershire Bromsgrove - William H BRYAN Son Unm 16 ?? Boy Staffordshire Wordsley - Sarah A BRYAN Daur Unm 14 - Staffordshire Wordsley - Alice E BRYAN Daur - 10 Scholar Salop Bridgnorth - George BRYAN Son 7 Scholar Salop Sutton - Charles E BRYAN Son 4 - Salop Eardington - Mary E? BRYAN Daur 3 - Salop St Marys - Arthur BRYAN Boarder 2 - salop Bridgnorth - -------------------------- 1871 St Mary Magdalene, Brignorth 44 55 Underhill Street 1 Richard BRYAN 52 Miller Worcestershire Worcester - Sarah Ann BRYAN Mar 37 - Worcestershire Bromsgrove - Robert BRYAN Son - 11 Worcestershire Bromsgrove - Walter BRYAN Son - 8 - Worcestershire Bromsgrove - William BRYAN Son = 7 - Worcestershire Wordsley - Sarah Ann BRYAN Daur - 3 - Worcestershire Wordsley - Alice BRYAN Daur - 3m - Salop Bridgnorth - -------------------------- 1861 Maxstoke, Warwickshire 9 Richard BRYAN Serv Mar 39 Miller Worcester St John - 1861 - rest of family Stoke Prior, Worcestershire 41 Hinge? Green 1 William NUTTING Head Mar 53 Carter Worcester Morton Underall - Alice NUTTING Wife Mar 52 Nurse Worcester Naun - Sarah Ann BRYAN Mar 25 - Worcester Bromsgrove - Edward NUTTING Son Un 15 Shoemaker Worcester Bromsgrove - William NUTTING Son 13 Ag Lab Worcester Bromsgrove - Alice NUTTING Daur 5 Scholar Worcester Bromsgrove - Amelia BRYAN Grand Daur U 3 Scholar Worcester Bromsgrove - Robert BRYAN Grandson - 1 - Scholar Worcester Bromsgrove - -------------------------- 1851 Bransford, Worcestershire 22 Richard BRYAN Lodger U 31 Miller St John Worcester - -------------------------- 1841 Herefordshire Westfield 1 Thomas BRYAN 50 Miller N Sarah BRYAN 45 - N Richard BRYAN 20 Miller N Martha BRYAN 20 - N Henry BRYAN 15 - N Elizabeth BRYAN 14 - N George BRYAN 12 - N Robert BRYAN 10 - N Mary BRYAN 8 - N Ann BRYAN 8months - N

/cont part 2 3. Marriage certificate: Richard BRYAN m. Sarah Ann NUTTING: http://tinyurl.com/ylbb26z Incidentally, I've failed so far to trace the certificate for Richard's first marriage (I do not know the name of his first wife). The first inkling I had he had been married before was from this certificate, and it really doesn't help he moved around a lot. 4. I think Sarah Ann BRYAN was still alive when Richard died. She's to be found on the 1891 and this is probably her death index ref: 1892 Mar Bridgnorth 6a 525 - I have ordered this certificate, should be here next week. 5 All the census records aligns Richard's birth for ~1819. Thus the correction has thrown me. I've copied all the relevant census records at the bottom of this e mail (working backwards), if anyone wishes to take a look. 6. You will note that his place of death was 48 Listley Street. The family were still living here a year later in 1891. 7. IGI has this record for a christening: Richard BRIAN 09 MAY 1819 St John Bedwardine, Worcester. Parents: Thomas BRIAN and Sarah. - yes I know I need to get to the Worcs Archives to check this. As for Emily, I've really no idea. My apologies for such a long e mail. Does anyone have any thoughts? :-/ Thanks, Alison / cont. census returns will follow in the next e mail ...

(Mike - thanks for letting me know my message got through). To everyone - I've had x2 messages rejected. So I guess they might be too long, or I've included a couple of links. So I'm going to split my e mail(s) up. Sorry about this! --------------------------- Part 1: Dear all Thanks to all your replies, much appreciated. The journeyman is useful to know, and might throw some light on why Richard moved around a lot. The Emily bit ... baffles me and really doesn't make sense! The other bit that doesn't make sense is his age. Richard BRYAN (my gg grandfather), his death certificate, as I've already linked to: http://tinyurl.com/ydgq653 The age column says that he was 72 years when he died in 1890. This places him as being born ~1818 (makes sense to me). The correction in the right margin, it places him as 56 years old, meaning born in 1834 (really doesn't make sense!) The correction is extremely confusing, and contradicts everything I've researched! Here's some other bits of information I've come by over the years. Note how it contradicts the so called correction: 1. Burial record: Richard Bryan, age 72. Buried 24th August 1890. Miller of St. Mary’s Parish. Grave No. 3805 in Consecrated ground. Folio No. 1098. 2. St Mary Magdalene, Bridgnorth / No: 718 / Year: 1890 / Name: Richard Bryan / Abode: 48 Listley Street / Date: Aug 25th / Age: 72 years / By whom: Henry Parsons, Rector /cont in next e mail .........

Dear all I have tried to send three messages in reply to everyone else's, but my messages keep getting rejected on the grounds I'm using html.  I don't believe I am (my gmail is set to plain text). I'm going to send this as a short message in the first instance, as my message length might be a problem (I included census records). In the meantime, hoping this gets through - I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their replies! I'm not ignoring you ..... And could someone please let me know if this gets through, and if so I'll try splitting. Thanks, Alison

The age discrepancy is a bit weird isn't it? Could a man who is really 56 be accepted as a 72 year old? I know they lived in tough times and he was obviously ill but..... Something sounds fishy. Diane -----Original Message----- From: eng-shropshire-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-shropshire-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Alison Bryan Sent: Friday, 8 January 2010 2:36 AM To: ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-SHROP] Death certificate - a request for help Dear all I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%2 01890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the occupation) column? ____man? 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." Many thanks in advance. Alison REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. Threaded Archives at - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives Searchable Archives at - http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

He's 62 and 52 in the previous censuses - I didn't look any earlier. So I suspect it's the other way round; a further search of censuses should help. But either way it's certainly a bit odd! Maybe he had lied to his wife about his age, if he was really about 15 years older. (I no longer have the censuses open to check figures.) Maybe Alison (the original enquirer) knows something more? Gillian >The age discrepancy is a bit weird isn't it? Could a man who is really 56 >be accepted as a 72 year old? I know they lived in tough times and he was >obviously ill but..... >Something sounds fishy. >Diane

Hi Alison, Do you think the first letter in the surname could possibly be a K? If the Registrar's initials are CW that W doesn't look like the one we are trying to decipher. Also the middle letter is nothing like the other g's. It is written in the same style as the y's with a long straight line instead of a loop. The last three letters look very similar to yan, as in Bryan. Could it possibly be iyan? It looks like there might be a dot above. Or could it even be ryan? And as for the Registrar's name - I think it ends in reton. His style of writing doesn't make it easy. Just look at the difference in the two capital T's in Twenty Third August 1890! It's fun isn't it? Cheers, Diane

More searching called for here! David 2010/1/7 Pamela Simmons <pamelas@blueyonder.co.uk> > Looks to me like Emily Bryan & Sarah Ann Bryan > Pamela > > > > REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. > Threaded Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives > > Searchable Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Looks to me like Emily Bryan & Sarah Ann Bryan Pamela

Dear all I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%2 01890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." Alison --------------- - Although the 's' is somewhat abbreviated, I think it's '72 Years' and '56 Years'. - The Registrar's name is Chs [Charles] T [?] CURETON. It's clearer on the main certificate. He's in the 1891 census at RG12-2093-29-2. - In the 1881 census Richard is on his own, as a boarder, at RG11-2634-100-38. He gives his age as 62. Humph! - His wife Sarah Ann is at RG11-2628-113-15, along with 7 children including Sarah Ann (junior). - There's a likely death for his wife Sarah Ann in FreeBMD 1892. I wasn't happy with the interpretation 'widow' as there's definitely a stroke below the line, and I think this knocks it on the head. - I know the beginning looks like 'Wi', but if you enlarge the image and sneak up on it from the right hand side you can see a fault in the paper, and the dot of the i looks to me as though it is really part of the W. I hunted through the 1891 census for "Emily Wy* " and came up with Emily Wyre, which is just about plausible given his fairly atrocious handwriting. By chance she's on the same page as another Richard BRYAN family, who might be connected. Or not. RG12-2093-21-16. It might be worth pursuing her, to see what her maiden name was, and whether you can find a connection. Or whether they were close neighbours. That's the only suggestion I can come up with at the moment. Now what was I doing when I got sidetracked? Good hunting Gillian

Hi "Emily widow" as I read it ,been his widow Mike in Droitwich Alison Bryan wrote: > Dear all > > I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: > http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg > > 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the > occupation) column? ____man? > > 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the > right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? > > "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the > 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a > Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." > > Many thanks in advance. > > Alison > > REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. > Threaded Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives > > Searchable Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

1. Is journeyman (means he was commissioned on a daily basis) 2. Hard to tell-can you scan just that bit and upload it, could be Wigan could also be Kegan or something else. HTH Sherry Landa (Admin, now in Oxford UK) > Dear all > > I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: > http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg > > 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the > occupation) column? ____man? > > 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the > right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? > > "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the > 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a > Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." > > Many thanks in advance. > > Alison

Hello Alison Is there any possibility that Emily was the Widow of Richard BRYAN? The text on the certificate certainly seems to be Wi?ow. Mike Shropshire, UK ______________________________________________________ Alison Bryan wrote: > Dear all > > I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: > http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg > > 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the > occupation) column? ____man? > > 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the > right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? > > "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the > 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a > Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." > > Many thanks in advance. > > Alison > > REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. > Threaded Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives > > Searchable Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Hi Alison I read it as "Miller (journeyman)". From rhcc.co.uk ... Journeyman - A tradesman who has served his trade apprenticeship and mastered his craft, not bound to serve a master, but originally hired by the day. The name derives from the French for day - jour. Sorry cannot help with the amended surname Heather Alison Bryan wrote: > Dear all > > I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: > http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg > > 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the > occupation) column? ____man? > > 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the > right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? > > "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the > 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a > Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." > > Many thanks in advance. > > Alison > > REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. > Threaded Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives > > Searchable Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Journeyman? Velda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Bryan" <alison.bryan@gmail.com> To: <ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:35 PM Subject: [ENG-SHROP] Death certificate - a request for help > Dear all > > I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: > http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg > > 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the > occupation) column? ____man? > > 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the > right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? > > "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the > 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a > Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." > > Many thanks in advance. > > Alison > > REMEMBER - The question you are asking may have already been answered. > Threaded Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/Archives > > Searchable Archives at - > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-SHROPSHIRE-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

journeyman n. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ. Christine

Dear all I am trying to read transcribe the following death certificate: http://www.llwynonn.eclipse.co.uk/bryan/Richard%20BRYAN%20Death%2012%20Aug%201890%20%281748%20x%201253%29.jpg 1. Does anyone understand what the word under Miller (in the occupation) column? ____man? 2. Can anyone make out one of the surnames, for correction in the right hand margin (after what I take to be Emily). Is it WIGAN? "In No. 392, Col 4 for "72 Year" read "56 Year". Corrected on the 25th August 1890, by the CW Hurett Registrar on production of a Statutory Declaration made by Emily _____ and Sarah Ann Bryan." Many thanks in advance. Alison