Hello List and Dianne, Subject: Re request by Dianne Bray to the Sheffield List 24th Sep 2007 Dianne asked about the possibility of a stepson marrying his step mother after the death of his father...on the 1861 census Ellen married to her first husband, had her age as 28... by the time of the 1871 census as the wife of the younger Samuel Bray, her 3rd husband, her age is listed as 36... so not too far out... this all revolves around one woman named originally Ellen Holmes, who married 3 times...see below... To answer your question as to whether a son could marry his step mother, the short answer is yes there would be no impediment as they were not related. It would likely have been frowned on however...it was in fact not that uncommon... a search was done for these people and it was found that one 'Ellen Holmes' was possibly 18 years old when she married her first husband... 1st husband of Ellen Holmes= John Needham. Sep qua. 1853 vol 9c page 224 Sheffield. By him she had three children Joseph son age 3, born 1858 Mary dau age 3 born 1858...Ellen born 1862 after her father John Needham died, see next line... A death search confirmed that John Needham died Sep qua 1862 vol 9c page 224 Sheffield... 2nd husband of Ellen Needham nee` Holmes = Samuel Bray widower, (1st wife of this Samuel was Mary Kenyon... he married her 26 Feb 1838 in Tideswell Derbyshire). Samuel Bray the elder, married for his second wife Ellen Needham nee` Holmes Sep qua. 1867 vol 9c p 566. Ellen would have been age 24 years, when she re-married. 3rd husband of Ellen Bray was her stepson, Samuel Bray, (son of the above Samuel by his first wife, Mary Bray nee` Kenyon) Samuel Bray Jr. Married his stepmother Ellen Bray in the Mar. qua. 1870 vol 9c p. 449 Sheffield...oh what a tangled web...!!! It is not known what happened to the sister of Samuel Bray Jr. Mary Ann Bray she was 18 on the 1861 census. Samuel was 16...Ellen Bray would have been age 27years when she married her 3rd husband...which tallies with her age on the 1871 census... To support this: found on the 1861 census John Needham hd age 26 Ellen Needham wife age 28 Joseph son age3 Mary dau age 3 (3rd child dau. Ellen was not on this census as she was not born until after her father died in 1862)... also on the 1861 census (seperate entry) was found Samuel Bray hd age 57 Drayman Mary Bray (nee` Kenyon) wife age 55 Mary Ann Bray dau age 18 Samuel Bray son age 16 As you said that "on the marriage cert for his son, he gave his father as Samuel Bray, drayman deceased" I looked for the deaths of the younger Samuel's parents with this result: Bray Mary Sheff vol 9c page 288 June 1/4, 1866 age 61 Bray Samuel Sheff vol 9c page 288 June 1/4 1868 age 57 The marriage of Samuel Bray to his second wife, Ellen Needham nee Holmes` was Sept 1/4 1867, vol 9c page 566 so Samuel only lived a year after marrying his second wife... This led to the marriage of Samuel Bray (jnr) son of the above Samuel) which took place as noted above. Samuel Bray to Ellen Bray Mar 1/4 1870 vol 9c, page 449 sheffield On the 1871 census we find the younger Samuel son of the elder Samuel now married to his stepmother, her name by now would have been Ellen (Holmes maiden name) Needham, Bray by this time...ultimately Ellen (Holmes) Needham, Bray, Bray. The son Samuel age 5 months, listed on the 1871 census was the son of the younger Samuel Bray ... Samuel Bray hd age 27 Brewers Lab. Ellen wife age 36 Ellen Needham (Bray) dau age 9 Samuel Bray son age 5 months. It is not known what happened to Ellen's first two children by her 1st husband... namely Joseph and Mary. The Elder Samuel did on the 1851 census put his place of birth as Tideswell, Yorks, and his wife Mary as born Bradwell, Yorks. both of these places were in Derbyshire I believe. on the 1841 census they were shown as out of County. Their ages were all over the place and Samuel could have been born anywhere between 1805 and 1815! He and Mary Kenyon were married 26th Feb. 1838 in Tideswell Derby. This is an extract from the IGI Batch # M058015, but as the date was after civil registration there should be a marriage cert available. Kindest regards Josephine, Ontario Canada... p.s. I take no credit for any of this information, as it was my sister Cynthia who managed to put all this together...p.s Dianne, if you want further censuses or other information, please contact me off list, unless everyone on the list has an interest???

Hi Josephine Please give my congratulations to your sister for working her way through that tangle! I have just realised what a "simple" family I have after all. Take care - Ann (Oakerthorpe, Derbyshire) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josephine Laxton" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [SHEFF] Re request by Dianne Bray > Hello List and Dianne, > Subject: Re request by Dianne Bray to the Sheffield List 24th Sep 2007 > Dianne asked about the possibility of a stepson marrying his step mother > after the death of his father...on the 1861 census Ellen married to her > first husband, had her age as 28... by the time of the 1871 census as the > wife of the younger Samuel Bray, her 3rd husband, her age is listed as > 36... so not too far out... this all revolves around one woman named > originally Ellen Holmes, who married 3 times...see below... > > > To answer your question as to whether a son could marry his step mother, > the short answer is yes there would be no impediment as they were not > related. It would likely have been frowned on however...it was in fact not > that uncommon... > > a search was done for these people and it was found that one 'Ellen > Holmes' was possibly 18 years old when she married her first husband... > 1st husband of Ellen Holmes= John Needham. Sep qua. 1853 vol 9c page 224 > Sheffield. By him she had three children > Joseph son age 3, born 1858 Mary dau age 3 born 1858...Ellen born 1862 > after her father John Needham died, see next line... > > A death search confirmed that John Needham died Sep qua 1862 vol 9c page > 224 Sheffield... > > 2nd husband of Ellen Needham nee` Holmes = Samuel Bray widower, (1st wife > of this Samuel was Mary Kenyon... he married her 26 Feb 1838 in Tideswell > Derbyshire). > Samuel Bray the elder, married for his second wife Ellen Needham nee` > Holmes Sep qua. 1867 vol 9c p 566. Ellen would have been age 24 years, > when she re-married. > > 3rd husband of Ellen Bray was her stepson, Samuel Bray, (son of the above > Samuel by his first wife, Mary Bray nee` Kenyon) Samuel Bray Jr. Married > his stepmother Ellen Bray in the Mar. qua. 1870 vol 9c p. 449 > Sheffield...oh what a tangled web...!!! It is not known what happened to > the sister of Samuel Bray Jr. Mary Ann Bray she was 18 on the 1861 census. > Samuel was 16...Ellen Bray would have been age 27years when she married > her 3rd husband...which tallies with her age on the 1871 census... > To support this: > > found on the 1861 census > John Needham hd age 26 > Ellen Needham wife age 28 > Joseph son age3 > Mary dau age 3 > (3rd child dau. Ellen was not on this census as she was not born until > after her father died in 1862)... > > also on the 1861 census (seperate entry) was found > > Samuel Bray hd age 57 Drayman > Mary Bray (nee` Kenyon) wife age 55 > Mary Ann Bray dau age 18 > Samuel Bray son age 16 > > As you said that "on the marriage cert for his son, he gave his father as > Samuel Bray, drayman deceased" > I looked for the deaths of the younger Samuel's parents with this result: > > Bray Mary Sheff vol 9c page 288 June 1/4, 1866 age 61 > > Bray Samuel Sheff vol 9c page 288 June 1/4 1868 age 57 > > The marriage of Samuel Bray to his second wife, Ellen Needham nee Holmes` > was Sept 1/4 1867, vol 9c page 566 so Samuel only lived a year after > marrying his second wife... > > This led to the marriage of Samuel Bray (jnr) son of the above Samuel) > which took place as noted above. > Samuel Bray to Ellen Bray Mar 1/4 1870 vol 9c, page 449 sheffield > > > On the 1871 census we find > the younger Samuel son of the elder Samuel now married to his stepmother, > her name by now would have been Ellen (Holmes maiden name) Needham, Bray > by this time...ultimately Ellen (Holmes) Needham, Bray, Bray. The son > Samuel age 5 months, listed on the 1871 census was the son of the younger > Samuel Bray ... > Samuel Bray hd age 27 Brewers Lab. > Ellen wife age 36 > Ellen Needham (Bray) dau age 9 > Samuel Bray son age 5 months. > > It is not known what happened to Ellen's first two children by her 1st > husband... namely Joseph and Mary. > The Elder Samuel did on the 1851 census put his place of birth as > Tideswell, Yorks, and his wife Mary as born Bradwell, Yorks. both of these > places were in Derbyshire I believe. on the 1841 census they were shown as > out of County. Their ages were all over the place and Samuel could have > been born anywhere between 1805 and 1815! > > He and Mary Kenyon were married 26th Feb. 1838 in Tideswell Derby. This > is an extract from the IGI Batch # M058015, but as the date was after > civil registration there should be a marriage cert available. > > Kindest regards Josephine, Ontario Canada... p.s. I take no credit for > any of this information, as it was my sister Cynthia who managed to put > all this together...p.s Dianne, if you want further censuses or other > information, please contact me off list, unless everyone on the list has > an interest??? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >