Dear Marg, I remeber you telling me about your hubby's adventure at St Swithins I guess the combining of the churches makes it an end of an era ! sad but still one can never take away the memories I know my Mum was not happy when they built the new church in the fifties and made the old church into a club Which has me thinking whar would have happend to the graveyard and cemetery is it still there ? Mary

Thank you for this news Mary. St Swithins is now combined with another church or churches in Croxteth, so this is not so surprising. I know about St Swithins because my husband fell through a roof there in 1958 and lived to tell the tale! Marged And everyone I just wish to tell you that the contact person or St Swithins church is no longer in the Parish but did give me another person to contact , if this works out iI will let you know Mary S Vancouver Island ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Marged And everyone I just wish to tell you that the contact person or St Swithins church is no longer in the Parish but did give me another person to contact , if this works out iI will let you know Mary S Vancouver Island

Hi Marged Sorry about that. I had overlooked your message from yesterday. It looks like St Peter's, Seel Street could be my best bet. Thanks also for the clarification that St Patrick's was built in 1821. Best regards Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 8:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Hi Gail The list of four or five churches I sent to the list yesterday were the only Churches in Liverpool up to and including 1810. A couple of them were on the outskirts and really missionary Churches - probably secret as the RC religion was not emancipated, and one of them was started in the 1400s! I went through the Archdiocese handbook to get the Churches and I don't think I missed any Marged Would still love to know what RC churches there were in Liverpool 1800 - 1810, as although I may be wrong, I believe St Patrick's was built later than that ? Thanks again Gail E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Hi Marged Thanks for that, much appreciated. I didn't realise what you meant originally, but the penny has now dropped. Would still love to know what RC churches there were in Liverpool 1800 - 1810, as although I may be wrong, I believe St Patrick's was built later than that ? Thanks again Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 7:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Hi Gail - at St Luke's Church you would never know you are not in an RC Church. In fact, it's what they call "more Roman than Rome" - they would have felt very much at home there when they became C of E. Marged Henry McDONALD's family became C of E as did some of the CONALTY's, but some of the grandchildren of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL are shown on several tree's on Ancestry and they were baptised at St Patrick's RC, in Liverpool. Regards Gail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Hi Marged Henry McDONALD's family became C of E as did some of the CONALTY's, but some of the grandchildren of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL are shown on several tree's on Ancestry and they were baptised at St Patrick's RC, in Liverpool. Regards Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 7:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Just as a point of interest, St Luke's Southport is an ENGLISH Catholic Church, very, very High Anglican, and always has been. This is a lovely link to the Church http://www.christians.co.uk/ Marged Just incase they are yours. Lesley Marriage: 30 Apr 1902 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England William Henry Conalty - 25 Sculptor Bachelor of 17 Sandfield Road Lissan? Bertha Annie Rich - 26 Spinster of 30 Maple Street Groom's Father: George Conalty Bride's Father: William Rich, Railway Servant Witness: J. S. L? Sampson; Edith Rich Married by: Chas. A. Clements Register: Marriages 1883 - 1904, Page 226, Entry 452 Source: LDS Film 1849661 Baptisms: 27 Aug 1905 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England Kenneth Douglas Conalty - Child of William Henry Conalty & Bertha Annie Abode: 1 Airdale Rd Sefton Park Liverpool Occupation: Sculptor Notes: Note says May 29, 1905 Baptised by: A. Urling Smith Register: Baptisms 1897 - 1912, Page 58, Entry 459 Source: LDS Film 1849661 -----Original Message----- From: f Gail Brumfitt Hi All Sorry for this long message, but I recently found that my 3x great grandmother married on 1 October 1830 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Henry McDONALD, she was Elizabeth WILLIAMS. However, as it turns out Elizabeth was a widow and was formerly Elizabeth CONALTY. I believe both these families were of Irish origin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Hi Lesley They are definitely descendants of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL's, son William CONALTY. The 1901 Census shows William Henry CONALTY living in Sandfield Road, Liscard. I had also found that particular marriage and baptism on the Lancashire OPC website. Regards Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of LiverpoolLady Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 5:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Just incase they are yours. Lesley Marriage: 30 Apr 1902 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England William Henry Conalty - 25 Sculptor Bachelor of 17 Sandfield Road Lissan? Bertha Annie Rich - 26 Spinster of 30 Maple Street Groom's Father: George Conalty Bride's Father: William Rich, Railway Servant Witness: J. S. L? Sampson; Edith Rich Married by: Chas. A. Clements Register: Marriages 1883 - 1904, Page 226, Entry 452 Source: LDS Film 1849661 Baptisms: 27 Aug 1905 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England Kenneth Douglas Conalty - Child of William Henry Conalty & Bertha Annie Abode: 1 Airdale Rd Sefton Park Liverpool Occupation: Sculptor Notes: Note says May 29, 1905 Baptised by: A. Urling Smith Register: Baptisms 1897 - 1912, Page 58, Entry 459 Source: LDS Film 1849661 -----Original Message----- From: f Gail Brumfitt Hi All Sorry for this long message, but I recently found that my 3x great grandmother married on 1 October 1830 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Henry McDONALD, she was Elizabeth WILLIAMS. However, as it turns out Elizabeth was a widow and was formerly Elizabeth CONALTY. I believe both these families were of Irish origin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

St Patrick's was built in 1821 I believe St Patrick's was built later than that ? Thanks again Gail

Hi Gail The list of four or five churches I sent to the list yesterday were the only Churches in Liverpool up to and including 1810. A couple of them were on the outskirts and really missionary Churches - probably secret as the RC religion was not emancipated, and one of them was started in the 1400s! I went through the Archdiocese handbook to get the Churches and I don't think I missed any Marged Would still love to know what RC churches there were in Liverpool 1800 - 1810, as although I may be wrong, I believe St Patrick's was built later than that ? Thanks again Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 7:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Hi Gail - at St Luke's Church you would never know you are not in an RC Church. In fact, it's what they call "more Roman than Rome" - they would have felt very much at home there when they became C of E. Marged Henry McDONALD's family became C of E as did some of the CONALTY's, but some of the grandchildren of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL are shown on several tree's on Ancestry and they were baptised at St Patrick's RC, in Liverpool. Regards Gail ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Gail - at St Luke's Church you would never know you are not in an RC Church. In fact, it's what they call "more Roman than Rome" - they would have felt very much at home there when they became C of E. Marged Henry McDONALD's family became C of E as did some of the CONALTY's, but some of the grandchildren of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL are shown on several tree's on Ancestry and they were baptised at St Patrick's RC, in Liverpool. Regards Gail

WELCOME: Let it be known to all, Certificates can only be bought after June 1837, that is when Civil Registration was introduced. Before that you will have to find the Church Registrars. Census in the UK are every 10 years, starting from June 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 they are only released to the public and online every 100 years, for privacy. Ancestral Chart, Start with yourself and work Backwards. (Download) http://genealogy.about.com/library/free_charts/bl_pedigree.htm UK Births, Marriages and Deaths. http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/ (Including all Counties, Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man and Wales) http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ (Also for purchasing certificates) Lancashire http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php Lancashire Look Up Exchange: http://aztecrose.tripod.com/LookupExchange.htm Cheshire. http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/index.php http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/chs/ http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ http://brideindex.info/Pages/f1028.html Cheshire Look Up Exchange: http://mysite.orange.co.uk/cheshirelookup Commonwealth War Graves Commission. (Deaths and Debt of Honour Register) http://www.cwgc.org/ CyndisList. http://www.cyndislist.com/ Place Names. http://www.englishplacenames.co.uk/ Online Newspapers. http://www.onlinenewspapers.com:80/ Surname Searcher. http://www.kuijsten.de/navigator/uk/ Web Sites. Later Day Saints (The Mormons) (Free Software) http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp The National Archives. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/?source=home RootsWeb. Join a RootsWeb Mailing list. http://www.rootsweb.com/ Genuki,(UK and Ireland Genealogy) http://www.genuki.org.uk/ http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ GRO website for purchasing certificates. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ Ancestry Maps. http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/Streets1841/1841_Census_Maps.htm http://www.lancashire-fhhs.org.uk/lancs/maps/regd1851.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~genmaps/genfiles/COU_Pages/ENG_pages/lan.htm Current Maps. http://www.multimap.com/index.htm http://www.mapquest.com/main.adp UK Online Phone Book. http://www.ukphonebook.com/public?ses=plehdfofkbbleionlolomhcjhgfpimjkeljicaclhadgolmebkdfhiabcohmifei&index=1 Online Phone Books from other Countries available, just ask, I have in my Favourites, UK, Australia, America and New Zealand. Online Parish Clerks. (Lancashire) http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ Cheshire Parish Register Project. http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/Live/v3.3/menu.html An invaluable source for anyone with Merseyside interests :- http://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=734 SOME OTHER COUNTRIES. http://www.wayp.com/eng/southpas3.shtml Australia. http://www.coraweb.com.au/ http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/ http://www.angelfire.com/ns/aust/ http://www.naa.gov.au/ Canada. http://automatedgenealogy.com/index.html http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-100.01-e.php http://bcdlib.tc.ca/links-subjects-newspapers.html Germany. http://www.genealogus.net/welcome.html America. http://www.bigyellow.com/ http://www.cyndislist.com/ http://www.ellisisland.org/ Pay Sites: For current relatives, phone numbers, addresses, electoral rolls, it is good. Some of it is free some of it is pay per view but increasing in it's content all the time, Just added satellite maps etc. http://www.192.com:80/ Note: ----------------- Message from Ian Hartas, UKBMD Dear all, It has been brought to my attention that there are a growing number of scam web sites out there which are trying to hijack users who are actually trying to visit the legitimate versions. Amongst the scam sites are: http://www.freebmd.com http://www.cheshire.bmd.org.uk http://www.wiltshire.bmd.org.uk I.e. subtle, but significant differences between these names and the real ones, which are respectively: http://www.freebmd.org.uk http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk http://www.wiltshirebmd.org.uk There are several others, all along the same style, simply adding an extra 'dot' or changing the domain type from ".org.uk" into ".com" My guess is that any site that ends in ".bmd.org.uk" i.e. with a dot in front of the "bmd" is likely to be a scam, as this part of the web site name is known as the domain name and it can be prefixed by any other text, such as www.cheshire as in the example above. As UKBMD aims to link to all available genuine BMD and census web sites, my recommendation is simply that you add the UKBMD's site address into your "Favorites" list on your browser and then you can be assured that you will only be shown valid web sites. Safe surfing ! Ron Fitzpatrick, Thanks to, Bob Kirk. Kathy Binns. Gordon.W.Evans. Leslie Bush. Christine Cunningham. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10010e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/

Thanks Marged Will look into these. Regards Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Wednesday, 11 June 2008 11:24 PM To: ENG-MERSEYSIDE Subject: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] RC CHURCHES PRE-1910 St Anthony of Egypt, Scotland Road (1804) e-mail [email protected] St Mary's Highfield Street (1707) Closed 2000 Records at Liverpool Records Office St Mary, Church Road, Woolton (1715) e-mail [email protected] St Peter's, Seel Street (1788) Registers at St Vincent de Paul, St James Street Telephone & Fax: 0151-709-2635 St Swithin Gillmoss (1425) e-mail [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Thanks Marged I look forward to anything you can find. Regards Gail -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Marged Sent: Wednesday, 11 June 2008 10:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-MERSEYSIDE] Catholic Churches - early 19th Century Hello Gail St Nicholas the RC Pro-Cathedral was opened in 1807 and closed in 1972 - the registers are at the Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral of Christ the King This St Nicholas is not to be confused with the Anglican St Nicholas at the Pier Head I have the book here and will go through it looking for other early RC Churches but I don't think there will be many. Marged My query is, does anyone know what RC churches there were in Liverpool in the very early 1800's, and if so which is the most likely for a baptism for Elizabeth CONALTY about 1810, and William CONALTY about 1805. Thanks in anticipation. without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/ E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Hi All Sorry for this long message, but I recently found that my 3x great grandmother married on 1 October 1830 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Henry McDONALD, she was Elizabeth WILLIAMS. However, as it turns out Elizabeth was a widow and was formerly Elizabeth CONALTY. I believe both these families were of Irish origin. At the same time, I found that my 2x great grandfather, also Henry McDONALD, was born 21 April 1846 - his father stated as Henry McDONALD, mother Elizabeth McDONALD, late WILLIAMS, formerly CONULTY. The surname I am led to believe is more likely to be CONALTY. In fact, on Henry junior's sister, Martha McDONALD's birth certificate the same mother is stated but she is formerly CONALTY. I have researched the CONALTY name a little in the past few weeks and am led to believe that this is a very rare Irish surname and is specifically from County Down in Ireland. Elizabeth CONALTY was born about 1810 in Liverpool. There are no baptisms for her on the IGI. In fact, there are very few CONALTY's on the IGI. There is however, a marriage between an Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL on 29 December 1802 at St Peter's, Liverpool. I may be wrong here, but I have been led to believe that RC marriage's were not officially recognised and that couples had to also marry in a Protestant church. This being, the case if the CONALTY family were RC, which is more than likely, their children would be most likely baptised in an RC church. I have found descendants of Arthur CONALTY and Elizabeth HILL, through Census returns for a son William CONALTY born about 1805 in Liverpool. I believe there is a good chance that William is a brother to my Elizabeth. However, without their baptisms I can't prove this. Some of William CONALTY's descendants were baptised at St Patrick's, Liverpool (going by trees listed on Ancestry). Henry McDONALD's descendants lived in Toxteth Park. William CONALTY's descendants lived in Everton. My query is, does anyone know what RC churches there were in Liverpool in the very early 1800's, and if so which is the most likely for a baptism for Elizabeth CONALTY about 1810, and William CONALTY about 1805. Thanks in anticipation. Gail Sydney, NSW, Australia E-mail message checked by PC Tools Spyware Doctor (5.0.0.187) Database version: 5.09520 http://www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor/

Just as a point of interest, St Luke's Southport is an ENGLISH Catholic Church, very, very High Anglican, and always has been. This is a lovely link to the Church http://www.christians.co.uk/ Marged Just incase they are yours. Lesley Marriage: 30 Apr 1902 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England William Henry Conalty - 25 Sculptor Bachelor of 17 Sandfield Road Lissan? Bertha Annie Rich - 26 Spinster of 30 Maple Street Groom's Father: George Conalty Bride's Father: William Rich, Railway Servant Witness: J. S. L? Sampson; Edith Rich Married by: Chas. A. Clements Register: Marriages 1883 - 1904, Page 226, Entry 452 Source: LDS Film 1849661 Baptisms: 27 Aug 1905 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England Kenneth Douglas Conalty - Child of William Henry Conalty & Bertha Annie Abode: 1 Airdale Rd Sefton Park Liverpool Occupation: Sculptor Notes: Note says May 29, 1905 Baptised by: A. Urling Smith Register: Baptisms 1897 - 1912, Page 58, Entry 459 Source: LDS Film 1849661 -----Original Message----- From: f Gail Brumfitt Hi All Sorry for this long message, but I recently found that my 3x great grandmother married on 1 October 1830 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Henry McDONALD, she was Elizabeth WILLIAMS. However, as it turns out Elizabeth was a widow and was formerly Elizabeth CONALTY. I believe both these families were of Irish origin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just incase they are yours. Lesley Marriage: 30 Apr 1902 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England William Henry Conalty - 25 Sculptor Bachelor of 17 Sandfield Road Lissan? Bertha Annie Rich - 26 Spinster of 30 Maple Street Groom's Father: George Conalty Bride's Father: William Rich, Railway Servant Witness: J. S. L? Sampson; Edith Rich Married by: Chas. A. Clements Register: Marriages 1883 - 1904, Page 226, Entry 452 Source: LDS Film 1849661 Baptisms: 27 Aug 1905 St Luke, Southport, Lancashire, England Kenneth Douglas Conalty - Child of William Henry Conalty & Bertha Annie Abode: 1 Airdale Rd Sefton Park Liverpool Occupation: Sculptor Notes: Note says May 29, 1905 Baptised by: A. Urling Smith Register: Baptisms 1897 - 1912, Page 58, Entry 459 Source: LDS Film 1849661 -----Original Message----- From: f Gail Brumfitt Hi All Sorry for this long message, but I recently found that my 3x great grandmother married on 1 October 1830 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Henry McDONALD, she was Elizabeth WILLIAMS. However, as it turns out Elizabeth was a widow and was formerly Elizabeth CONALTY. I believe both these families were of Irish origin.

St Anthony of Egypt, Scotland Road (1804) e-mail [email protected] St Mary's Highfield Street (1707) Closed 2000 Records at Liverpool Records Office St Mary, Church Road, Woolton (1715) e-mail [email protected] St Peter's, Seel Street (1788) Registers at St Vincent de Paul, St James Street Telephone & Fax: 0151-709-2635 St Swithin Gillmoss (1425) e-mail [email protected]

:-). I've gone quiet due to being (thankfully) bogged down by too much information! You can imagine my delight to discover somebody called 'Peter Jones' marrying a Brown! <rolls eyes>. I was saved by a census return and knowing their children's names. I've been sifting through it all and come up with some really solid stuff. I'm starting to realise the differences between the sites and the content they carry. One question that would help. When sources of information such as birth/marriages/deaths records have run out, the census returns aren't shedding any light on the matter do people have any tips on where to look next? I hear burial records (the actual records not just looking at gravestones) are good for making links and the the baptism ones are also good, especially for potentially more accurate dates of birth. Other than that its a case of getting together the information and trying to ask meaningful questions of the group when we're stuck! <grin> Thanks for all the help so far its been marvellous! Pete On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:30 +0100, Marged <[email protected]> wrote: > Welcoming a few new members who have joined recently. I hope they will feel > free to write to the list with their queries and that our members will be as > helpful as they usually are. > > Marged > >------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Welcoming a few new members who have joined recently. I hope they will feel free to write to the list with their queries and that our members will be as helpful as they usually are. Marged

Hello Gail St Nicholas the RC Pro-Cathedral was opened in 1807 and closed in 1972 - the registers are at the Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral of Christ the King This St Nicholas is not to be confused with the Anglican St Nicholas at the Pier Head I have the book here and will go through it looking for other early RC Churches but I don't think there will be many. Marged My query is, does anyone know what RC churches there were in Liverpool in the very early 1800's, and if so which is the most likely for a baptism for Elizabeth CONALTY about 1810, and William CONALTY about 1805. Thanks in anticipation. without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message