Hi Irene I have just found the 1851 census return you referred to - you're right - it's very difficult to read. At first glance Elizabeth's age looked very much like 58 but on closer examination I can see it could be 38. If she is 38 then that would make her a poor match for the Elizabeth we found in the Great Bridgewater Street Chapel in 1806. Having said that, I know that my Elizabeth Cardwell married William Roberts in 1828 and since being 38 in 1851 would have made her 15 when she married, I think it's likely that a few years were deducted from her age in this census. The other thing which is concerning me is that we have quite a decent list of possible siblings for the Elizabeth who was baptised in 1806 and there is no Ellen or Eliza on the list. The last baptism we have for the family is in 1806, so if Eliza was only born in 1811 I wonder if the family had moved to a different church by that time? It feels very cheeky to ask, since I have received so much wonderful help from this list recently, but I wonder if any of you knowledgeable people might be able to suggest anything which can help me to join up the three generations I am working with here. When Elizabeth Cardwell married John Roberts, their parents are not listed, so I am unable to conclusively connect Elizabeth to the baptism (parents William and Mary) in 1806. I know from the baptisms that William's occupation is a blacksmith, but again, the 1794 marriage between William and Mary Hay does not list occupations. Can anyone suggest any other possible records which might help me prove a connection between Elizabeth and the William and Mary from the baptisms and also the William and Mary from the baptisms to the William and Mary in the 1794 marriage? I feel fairly confident that I have located William Cardwell in the 1841 census where there is a 55-year-old blacksmith of that name living in Greengate, Salford. He is with the family of George and Sarah Windle (Sarah could be his daughter baptised in 1796, although Ancestry has a marriage of George Windle and Sarah Horsfall in 1829 and there is a Horsefall in the same household as well). Many thanks Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2013 1:02 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Cardwells Hello Joanne: As you can see, I've been enjoying the chase for your CARDWELLs. Have you seen Elizabeth ROBERTS in 1851, still at Nathan's Court? Living with her is an unmarried sister Eliza aged (I think) 40 years. This implies a birth c. 1811. Elizabeth probably gives her age as 38. These are difficult to read being on the water damaged section but the Manchester & Lancs FHS rescue transcription agrees with these details. These 2 undoubtedly belong to your family because of the definite connection with your known ancestors and the link to this address. I wonder if Ellen & Eliza might be the same person. When you are searching you should also consider variants CADWELL and CANDWELL (in case the r has been misread as n). Best wishes, Irene :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Joane, I see the Windles used the same church. Baptism: 15 Jul 1832 Gravel Lane Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Salford, Lancashire, England Sarah Windle - Daughter of George Windle & Sarah     Born: 31 May 1832     Abode: Caygill Street Salford     Occupation: Labourer     Baptised by: T H Squance     Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1840, Entry 1265     Source: LDS Film 560900 Regards  Mike Morris  Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com >Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:40:08 AM > >I feel fairly confident that I have located William Cardwell in the 1841 >census where there is a 55-year-old blacksmith of that name living in >Greengate, Salford. He is with the family of George and Sarah Windle (Sarah >could be his daughter baptised in 1796, although Ancestry has a marriage of >George Windle and Sarah Horsfall in 1829 and there is a Horsefall in the >same household as well).<snmipped>

Hi Joanne,  I have sent you a map showing Caygill street in Greengate and the Chapel. Not in this map but to the east almost in a straight line across the river and about 15 minutes walk is Balloon street. Not far from the Cathedral.  Regards  Mike Morris  Toronto Canada >

Hello Joanne: I don't know about your ancestors but mine lied about their ages all the time. In 1841 age should have been rounded down to the nearest 5 years. It looks as if Elizabeth may have rounded her age up - if the age of 38 is anywhere near correct in 1851. I think you might have to step back from the children of William & Mary. BTW, William's occupation is given on his marriage entry. It says, smith - consistent with later entries of blacksmith at the baptisms of the children. But so far, there's been nothing that would really convince me that you have the correct parentage for your Elizabeth. It's still possible but it doesn't feel right yet. Keep working at it - you may get there eventually. Best wishes, Irene

Hi Irene I agree that something just doesn't feel right about Elizabeth and the family of William and Mary, but I'll keep plugging away and see what I can make certain. I always feel a little bereft when I have to let a family go, but I must remind myself that if I do find that this family isn't mine, I'd never even heard of them a week ago so I can get over it! Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013 8:03 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Cardwells Hello Joanne: I don't know about your ancestors but mine lied about their ages all the time. In 1841 age should have been rounded down to the nearest 5 years. It looks as if Elizabeth may have rounded her age up - if the age of 38 is anywhere near correct in 1851. I think you might have to step back from the children of William & Mary. BTW, William's occupation is given on his marriage entry. It says, smith - consistent with later entries of blacksmith at the baptisms of the children. But so far, there's been nothing that would really convince me that you have the correct parentage for your Elizabeth. It's still possible but it doesn't feel right yet. Keep working at it - you may get there eventually. Best wishes, Irene :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here's another snippet to add to your list. This evidence may eventually build sufficient confidence to establish your links. Eleanor Cardwell (signed Ellener) married Joseph Bispham at the Collegiate Church in 1845. Her father was William Cardwell, a smith. The witnesses were of no help to me but perhaps they mean something to you. Worth a look. Best wishes, Irene

Those of you who took an interest in my Cardwell research over the past week or so might be interested to know that I have now found a baptism of a William Cardwell at Manchester Cathedral in 1813. It lists the parents as William and Mary of Salford, and William was a cordwainer, so this seems to prove that there one more than one couple named William and Mary Cardwell baptising children in Manchester between 1795 and 1815. I strongly suspect that this William is a brother of the Ellen Cardwell who was baptised at the Cathedral in 1806 and she is likely to be the one who was living with my Elizabeth in 1841 and 1851. It seems strange that the couple didn't baptise any other children between 1806 and 1813, but I am broadening my spelling variations to try to account for this. Best regards Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013 8:44 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Cardwells Here's another snippet to add to your list. This evidence may eventually build sufficient confidence to establish your links. Eleanor Cardwell (signed Ellener) married Joseph Bispham at the Collegiate Church in 1845. Her father was William Cardwell, a smith. The witnesses were of no help to me but perhaps they mean something to you. Worth a look. Best wishes, Irene :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message