Hi Joane, I see the Windles used the same church. Baptism: 15 Jul 1832 Gravel Lane Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Salford, Lancashire, England Sarah Windle - Daughter of George Windle & Sarah Born: 31 May 1832 Abode: Caygill Street Salford Occupation: Labourer Baptised by: T H Squance Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1840, Entry 1265 Source: LDS Film 560900 Regards Mike Morris Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com >Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:40:08 AM > >I feel fairly confident that I have located William Cardwell in the 1841 >census where there is a 55-year-old blacksmith of that name living in >Greengate, Salford. He is with the family of George and Sarah Windle (Sarah >could be his daughter baptised in 1796, although Ancestry has a marriage of >George Windle and Sarah Horsfall in 1829 and there is a Horsefall in the >same household as well).<snmipped>
I have just spotted an error in my last email. The MC I found at the Cathedral might just about refer to the Ellen Cardwell of Nathan's Court in 1841 if she was 34 at the time of the census and married when she was just 14. I realise this was almost certainly illegal, but with some margin for error and a couple of white lies it is just about plausible. One of the marriage witnesses was a James M Cardwell, who was a sibling of Elizabeth, although the groom was Authur (Arthur?) Cardwell who is not one of the babies we found baptised by this couple so far. Joanne Sent from my iPad On 19/02/2013, at 12:48 PM, "Irene Marlborough" <imarlb@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Hello Joanne: > > I would say that your Cardwells were staunchly Wesleyan. In 1794 there was > no such thing as a Wesleyan marriage. The couple would have been obliged to > marry in the Established Church. Unless they had plenty of money this would > have meant the Collegiate Church. From 1754 until 1837 the Collegiate Church > had a monopoly on marriages in the parish of Manchester. A fee was levied > whether or not the couple married elsewhere so ordinary people had no choice > but to marry there. People who were a little better off might have been able > to afford the double fee incurred by marrying at another church such as St > Anne's or St Mary's. > > All non-Conformists (except for Quakers and Jews) had to marry in a Church > of England church for a legal marriage. Everyone including Roman Catholics > had to do this up to 1837 and the start of Civil Registration. So the fact > that William Cardwell and Mary Hay married at the Collegiate Church is not a > factor when you are considering if they were Wesleyan. > > I'm a bit confused about your 1841 Elizabeth and Ellen. There are 2 Cardwell > ladies Elizabeth aged 30 and Ellen aged 25 living on Balloon Street. But I > think you must mean the 2 households at Nathan's Ct in the Greengate > district of Salford. The first is headed by 30 year old Elizabeth Roberts > and the 2nd headed by Ellen Cardwell. If you have the correct Elizabeth > Roberts (and it does seem likely) then you know that she is either married > or widowed. This might also be true for Ellen. In which case, this Ellen > would not have been born a Cardwell. I just thought I'd mention it to make > sure you consider the possibility that Ellen might be a sister in law (and > therefore not the one baptised at the Collegiate Church). > > There's more research to be done to establish whether Mrs Elizabeth Roberts > is the daughter of William Cardwell and Mary Hay. I assume that you began > with some Roberts offspring. I trust that you are certain of the Cardwell > connection. Roberts is unfortunately a very common name. > > Best wishes, Irene > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Irene Once again, thank you very much for your very detailed and informative reply. You are obviously very knowledgeable in this area, for which I am very grateful! I wasn’t aware of the rules regarding marriages in Wesleyan churches so that really helps to clear things up for me. You are completely right of course about Ellen Cardwell and I feel like a proper twit for not realising that by the age of 30 she was probably married, quite possibly to one of Elizabeth’s brothers. Yes, I am looking at the two women in Nathan’s Court. I have just done a quick search on Ancestry for a marriage between a man named Cardwell and a woman called Ellen, but sadly didn’t find one for Manchester other than one which would have made Ellen a maximum of nine years old at the time of her marriage – it would have been nice to have found her married to a brother of Elizabeth’s to tie things up. I am as certain as I can be about the Cardwell connection. I have the birth certificates of two of my great grandmother Emily Roberts’ siblings, one of whom has the unusual name of Cornelius Joseph and both of those certificates list my great great grandparents as John Roberts and Mary Maroney. I have their MC, which lists John Roberts’ address as 1 Nathan’s Court. Since John is at that same address and of the right age in 1841 I feel certain that this is him and his mother is shown as Elizabeth. I know from John’s MC that his father’s name was William so I have both of his parents’ names. John was born 1828-29 and there is a marriage of William Roberts and Elizabeth Cardwell in the appropriate church in 1828. Coupled with the fact that there seems to be a Cardwell in the same household as Elizabeth and John Roberts in 1841, I feel I have enough to believe that this marriage belongs to my 3 x great grandparents. I had interpreted the two women as being in the same household because there is no ditto mark in the left-hand column where Ellen’s entry starts, whereas there seems to be for each of the other new households on the page. Admittedly there is a small separation mark before Ellen, so perhaps she and the following inhabitants were in one flat whereas Elizabeth and her two children were in the other? I agree, the next step seems to be to prove a connection between Elizabeth Cardwell (later Roberts) and the William Cardwell and Mary Hay of the 1794 marriage. And also to find out about Mancunians of the Wesleyan faith in the early 1800s. Best regards Joanne Sent from my iPad On 19/02/2013, at 12:48 PM, "Irene Marlborough" <imarlb@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Hello Joanne: > > I would say that your Cardwells were staunchly Wesleyan. In 1794 there was > no such thing as a Wesleyan marriage. The couple would have been obliged to > marry in the Established Church. Unless they had plenty of money this would > have meant the Collegiate Church. From 1754 until 1837 the Collegiate Church > had a monopoly on marriages in the parish of Manchester. A fee was levied > whether or not the couple married elsewhere so ordinary people had no choice > but to marry there. People who were a little better off might have been able > to afford the double fee incurred by marrying at another church such as St > Anne's or St Mary's. > > All non-Conformists (except for Quakers and Jews) had to marry in a Church > of England church for a legal marriage. Everyone including Roman Catholics > had to do this up to 1837 and the start of Civil Registration. So the fact > that William Cardwell and Mary Hay married at the Collegiate Church is not a > factor when you are considering if they were Wesleyan. > > I'm a bit confused about your 1841 Elizabeth and Ellen. There are 2 Cardwell > ladies Elizabeth aged 30 and Ellen aged 25 living on Balloon Street. But I > think you must mean the 2 households at Nathan's Ct in the Greengate > district of Salford. The first is headed by 30 year old Elizabeth Roberts > and the 2nd headed by Ellen Cardwell. If you have the correct Elizabeth > Roberts (and it does seem likely) then you know that she is either married > or widowed. This might also be true for Ellen. In which case, this Ellen > would not have been born a Cardwell. I just thought I'd mention it to make > sure you consider the possibility that Ellen might be a sister in law (and > therefore not the one baptised at the Collegiate Church). > > There's more research to be done to establish whether Mrs Elizabeth Roberts > is the daughter of William Cardwell and Mary Hay. I assume that you began > with some Roberts offspring. I trust that you are certain of the Cardwell > connection. Roberts is unfortunately a very common name. > > Best wishes, Irene > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> > > Hi Irene > > Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply and for looking up those other baptisms for me. Your ideas about the different churches all sound very plausible, but I agree that if all those other babies belong to the same parents, Ellen does seem to be the anomaly. When I first found the girls I thought if they weren't sisters they might be cousins, however, Ellen's baptism does list her parents as William and Mary, so that would mean two brothers both called William. I don't think Cardwell is a very common name so I'll have to have a good think about how I can prove or disprove a link between the two - maybe by finding some of those other babies when they were married and/or in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. > > I had found the William Cardwell and Mary Hay marriage and also thought it looked interesting, especially now that you have found other babies born in the gap between that marriage and Elizabeth's birth. That would suggest a further link with the cathedral though and, as you say, they seem to have been quite loyal to the Wesleyan chapels. > > Many thanks > Joanne > > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough > Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 7:20 AM > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral > > Joanne wrote: "Can anyone suggest why a set of parents might baptise two children only three months apart and in churches of different denominations... " > > Yes, there are any number of scenarios that might explain this. > > Here are some: > 1) The babies are twins but one was in dire danger of dying at birth. > Someone baptised the baby as an emergency and had it recorded (as a private > baptism) at the local church. Later the 2nd twin was "done" at the normal time. > > 2) The family are a bit lax about baptisms and their 2 year old suddenly got really ill. The nearest clergy attended and baptised the child. Three months later the family takes the new baby to their own church to be baptised. > > 3) The family have the first child baptised (aged about 1 year) and then fall out with the clergy. The 2nd church they attend has a new curate determined to keep up with infant baptisms and insists that the new baby is baptised within 6 weeks of birth. > > Of course, if Cardwell is a fairly common name then you may just have 2 different families. It's unfortunate that the Collegiate church baptisms are so terse. There's absolutely nothing to help you identify that family. > > I don't know if you have these non-Conformist Wesleyan Chapel baptisms: > Elizabeth born 28 Jul 1806 bap 5 Oct 1806 Gt Bridgewater St. Chapel Hannah born 17 Jul 1804 bap 2 Sep 1804 Gt. Bridgewater St. Chapel Mary born 18 Apr 1802 bap 23 May 1802 Gravel Lane Wesleyan, Salford Margaret born 22 Feb 1800 bap 30 Mar 1800 Gravel Lane James born 17 Apr 1798 bap 29 Apr 1798 Gravel Lane Sarah born 19 Aug 1796 bap 4 Sep 1796 Gravel Lane (mistranscribed as 1798) > > > These non-Conformist baptisms state that William was a blacksmith of 161 Newton Lane. I have to say that they seem to be very diligent about having the babies baptised promptly and all at Wesleyan Chapels. I can't imagine why they would baptise Ellen at the Collegiate Church unless they were in a big hurry. And there really isn't enough time from 28 Jul to 28 December even for a pre-term baby.... The baptism evidence would tend to indicate that the girls are not sisters but since both were apparently daughters of William & Mary, you'll need to keep an open mind about it. > > I think that the marriage of William Cardwell (smith) and Mary Hay at the Collegiate church in 1794 looks promising. > > HTH, Irene > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Yes, I have seen cases before where parents have saved their babies up until they have a 'job lot'. It was the fact that they were baptised three months apart that was throwing me but Irene's suggestions all made complete sense until we realised how diligent the couple had been and how loyal to the Wesleyan chapels. Joanne Sent from my iPad On 19/02/2013, at 11:56 AM, "Richard" <RS-genealogy@snowman1.f9.co.uk> wrote: > I can't answer the original question but I have just come across a case > where 5 siblings were baptised at the same time! Eldest was 11, youngest > given as "infant". Must be cheaper in bulk! > > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough > Sent: 18 February 2013 20:20 > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral > > Joanne wrote: "Can anyone suggest why a set of parents might baptise two > children only three months apart and in churches of different > denominations... " > > Yes, there are any number of scenarios that might explain this. > > Here are some: > 1) The babies are twins but one was in dire danger of dying at birth. > Someone baptised the baby as an emergency and had it recorded (as a private > baptism) at the local church. Later the 2nd twin was "done" at the normal > time. > > 2) The family are a bit lax about baptisms and their 2 year old suddenly got > really ill. The nearest clergy attended and baptised the child. Three months > later the family takes the new baby to their own church to be baptised. > > 3) The family have the first child baptised (aged about 1 year) and then > fall out with the clergy. The 2nd church they attend has a new curate > determined to keep up with infant baptisms and insists that the new baby is > baptised within 6 weeks of birth. > > Of course, if Cardwell is a fairly common name then you may just have 2 > different families. It's unfortunate that the Collegiate church baptisms are > so terse. There's absolutely nothing to help you identify that family. > > I don't know if you have these non-Conformist Wesleyan Chapel baptisms: > Elizabeth born 28 Jul 1806 bap 5 Oct 1806 Gt Bridgewater St. Chapel Hannah > born 17 Jul 1804 bap 2 Sep 1804 Gt. Bridgewater St. Chapel Mary born 18 Apr > 1802 bap 23 May 1802 Gravel Lane Wesleyan, Salford Margaret born 22 Feb 1800 > bap 30 Mar 1800 Gravel Lane James born 17 Apr 1798 bap 29 Apr 1798 Gravel > Lane Sarah born 19 Aug 1796 bap 4 Sep 1796 Gravel Lane (mistranscribed as > 1798) > > > These non-Conformist baptisms state that William was a blacksmith of 161 > Newton Lane. I have to say that they seem to be very diligent about having > the babies baptised promptly and all at Wesleyan Chapels. I can't imagine > why they would baptise Ellen at the Collegiate Church unless they were in a > big hurry. And there really isn't enough time from 28 Jul to 28 December > even for a pre-term baby.... The baptism evidence would tend to indicate > that the girls are not sisters but since both were apparently daughters of > William & Mary, you'll need to keep an open mind about it. > > I think that the marriage of William Cardwell (smith) and Mary Hay at the > Collegiate church in 1794 looks promising. > > HTH, Irene > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello all The process to remove the message from the archives has been initiated and the subscriber has been alerted to the problem. I'm sure you all know not to click on the URL that was included in the message. Kind regards, Lynne list admin. -----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Michael <anthro20061@yahoo.com> >Sent: Feb 19, 2013 4:36 AM >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com, eng-liverpool@rootsweb.com, hilary.rimmer@sky.com, Bruhhman <Bruhhman@gmail.com>, twjpj-3601754543@pers.craigslist.org, worthysister <worthysister@hotmail.com>, 6kmb2-3572544485@pers.craigslist.org, lm_rodarte@yahoo.com >Subject: [ENG-MAN] Anthony Michael > >http://www.africanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18 February 2013 Burials 1853 to 1927 from the Church of St John the Evangelist, Bacup Morning all, Here are the latest additions to the Lancs OPC website: http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexw.html Baptisms 1994 to 2001 and Confirmations 1913 to 1983 from the Church of St James, in the Parish of Briercliffe Marriages 1845 to 1850 and 1896 to 1907 from the Church of St Peter in the Parish of Burnley Confirmations 1909 to 1956 from the Church of St Cuthbert, in the Parish of Burnley Baptisms 1887 to 1866 from the Roman Catholic Church of St Mary Magdalene in the Parish of Burnley Burials 1914 to 1920 from Burnley Cemetery Updated to include the 28 new burials omitted from the original transcript Burials 1877 to 2002 from Wheatley Lane Inghamite, in the Parish of Fence in Pendle Baptisms 1925 to 2012, Confirmations 1947 to 1972, Banns 1937 to 1981, Marriages 1937 to 2011 and Burials 1940 to 2012 from the Church of St Margaret in the Parish of Hapton Baptisms 1985 to 2003 from the Church of St Anne and St Elizabeth, Padiham Green 11 February 2013 Baptisms 1886 to 1898 from the Church of St James in the Parish of Ashton under Lyne Confirmations 1861 to 1871 from the Roman Catholic Church of St Mary in the Parish of Clayton le Moors Marriages 1864 to 1870 from the Church of the Holy Trinity in the Parish of Habergham Eaves Burials 1886 to 1889 from Immanuel in the Parish of Oswaldtwistle Regards, Sally
Hello Joanne: As you can see, I've been enjoying the chase for your CARDWELLs. Have you seen Elizabeth ROBERTS in 1851, still at Nathan's Court? Living with her is an unmarried sister Eliza aged (I think) 40 years. This implies a birth c. 1811. Elizabeth probably gives her age as 38. These are difficult to read being on the water damaged section but the Manchester & Lancs FHS rescue transcription agrees with these details. These 2 undoubtedly belong to your family because of the definite connection with your known ancestors and the link to this address. I wonder if Ellen & Eliza might be the same person. When you are searching you should also consider variants CADWELL and CANDWELL (in case the r has been misread as n). Best wishes, Irene
Also noticed the parents names as............... and they lived across the river in Manchester. Baptism: 29 Apr 1798 Gravel Lane Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Salford, Lancashire, England James Cardwell - Son of William Cardwell & Mary Born: 17 Aug 1798 Abode: Manchester Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1840, Entry 152 Source: LDS Film 560900 All the four children I sent you had the same parents as above. Having a difficult time trying to locate Nathans court in an 1841 map of Salford, Greengate. But Gravel Lane is in Greengate just across the river from the Manchester cathedral Regards Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Morris <morrisind@rogers.com> > To: "eng-manchester@rootsweb.com" <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:12:15 AM > Baptisms at Gravel Lane Wesleyan Methodist Chapel > in the City of Salford > Index to the Baptisms recorded in the Register for the years 1793 - 1840 > > Cardwell > James 29 Apr 1798 > Margaret 30 Mar 1800 > Mary 23 May 1802 > Sarah 4 Sep 179 <Snipped>
Wonder if the following is of help? I found the following Cardwell's just across the river in Salford. Baptisms at Gravel Lane Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in the City of Salford Index to the Baptisms recorded in the Register for the years 1793 - 1840 Cardwell James 29 Apr 1798 Margaret 30 Mar 1800 Mary 23 May 1802 Sarah 4 Sep 179 Regards Mike Morris Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: Irene Marlborough <imarlb@sbcglobal.net> >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com >Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:02:16 AM >Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Cardwells > >These 2 undoubtedly belong to your family because of the definite connection >with your known ancestors and the link to this address. I wonder if Ellen & >Eliza might be the same person. When you are searching you should also >consider variants CADWELL and CANDWELL (in case the r has been misread as <snipped>
The Manchester Regional Group of the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain is holding a workshop on Sunday, 24th February from 2.00pm to approximately 4.30pm, at the United Synagogue, Meade Hill Road off Middleton Road, Manchester M8. Send an e-mail to lorna.kay@talktalk.net for full details of what we do and how we do it, and how to find the venue. The meeting is open to everyone and our aim is to show people how to research their Jewish ancestors - beginners are especially welcome. We have internet access and a reference library of in-depth research books, as well as other resource material. Members attend free, but there is a charge of £5 per person for a workshop, which includes free literature and refreshments. Lorna Kay Chairman Manchester Regional Group Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain Researching WEISBERG (Kamenets Podolsk, Pruskurov, Zhvanets Ukraine) SEABERG (Tukkums, Sassmacken Latvia) KAHN (Mitau Latvia) BLUESTONE (Roumania) KUTCHINSKY (Piotrkow Russian Poland) BRADPIECE (Austria) -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 48 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
I can't answer the original question but I have just come across a case where 5 siblings were baptised at the same time! Eldest was 11, youngest given as "infant". Must be cheaper in bulk! Richard -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough Sent: 18 February 2013 20:20 To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral Joanne wrote: "Can anyone suggest why a set of parents might baptise two children only three months apart and in churches of different denominations... " Yes, there are any number of scenarios that might explain this. Here are some: 1) The babies are twins but one was in dire danger of dying at birth. Someone baptised the baby as an emergency and had it recorded (as a private baptism) at the local church. Later the 2nd twin was "done" at the normal time. 2) The family are a bit lax about baptisms and their 2 year old suddenly got really ill. The nearest clergy attended and baptised the child. Three months later the family takes the new baby to their own church to be baptised. 3) The family have the first child baptised (aged about 1 year) and then fall out with the clergy. The 2nd church they attend has a new curate determined to keep up with infant baptisms and insists that the new baby is baptised within 6 weeks of birth. Of course, if Cardwell is a fairly common name then you may just have 2 different families. It's unfortunate that the Collegiate church baptisms are so terse. There's absolutely nothing to help you identify that family. I don't know if you have these non-Conformist Wesleyan Chapel baptisms: Elizabeth born 28 Jul 1806 bap 5 Oct 1806 Gt Bridgewater St. Chapel Hannah born 17 Jul 1804 bap 2 Sep 1804 Gt. Bridgewater St. Chapel Mary born 18 Apr 1802 bap 23 May 1802 Gravel Lane Wesleyan, Salford Margaret born 22 Feb 1800 bap 30 Mar 1800 Gravel Lane James born 17 Apr 1798 bap 29 Apr 1798 Gravel Lane Sarah born 19 Aug 1796 bap 4 Sep 1796 Gravel Lane (mistranscribed as 1798) These non-Conformist baptisms state that William was a blacksmith of 161 Newton Lane. I have to say that they seem to be very diligent about having the babies baptised promptly and all at Wesleyan Chapels. I can't imagine why they would baptise Ellen at the Collegiate Church unless they were in a big hurry. And there really isn't enough time from 28 Jul to 28 December even for a pre-term baby.... The baptism evidence would tend to indicate that the girls are not sisters but since both were apparently daughters of William & Mary, you'll need to keep an open mind about it. I think that the marriage of William Cardwell (smith) and Mary Hay at the Collegiate church in 1794 looks promising. HTH, Irene :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello Joanne: I would say that your Cardwells were staunchly Wesleyan. In 1794 there was no such thing as a Wesleyan marriage. The couple would have been obliged to marry in the Established Church. Unless they had plenty of money this would have meant the Collegiate Church. From 1754 until 1837 the Collegiate Church had a monopoly on marriages in the parish of Manchester. A fee was levied whether or not the couple married elsewhere so ordinary people had no choice but to marry there. People who were a little better off might have been able to afford the double fee incurred by marrying at another church such as St Anne's or St Mary's. All non-Conformists (except for Quakers and Jews) had to marry in a Church of England church for a legal marriage. Everyone including Roman Catholics had to do this up to 1837 and the start of Civil Registration. So the fact that William Cardwell and Mary Hay married at the Collegiate Church is not a factor when you are considering if they were Wesleyan. I'm a bit confused about your 1841 Elizabeth and Ellen. There are 2 Cardwell ladies Elizabeth aged 30 and Ellen aged 25 living on Balloon Street. But I think you must mean the 2 households at Nathan's Ct in the Greengate district of Salford. The first is headed by 30 year old Elizabeth Roberts and the 2nd headed by Ellen Cardwell. If you have the correct Elizabeth Roberts (and it does seem likely) then you know that she is either married or widowed. This might also be true for Ellen. In which case, this Ellen would not have been born a Cardwell. I just thought I'd mention it to make sure you consider the possibility that Ellen might be a sister in law (and therefore not the one baptised at the Collegiate Church). There's more research to be done to establish whether Mrs Elizabeth Roberts is the daughter of William Cardwell and Mary Hay. I assume that you began with some Roberts offspring. I trust that you are certain of the Cardwell connection. Roberts is unfortunately a very common name. Best wishes, Irene
Hi Mike Thank you for the advice about St Augustine's. That one doesnt seem to be included on Family Search and I am living in Australia at the moment so I think my best bet will be to order the certificate from the Lancashire BMD site and take it from there. If that proves to be wrong I'll get into view the St Augustine's records when I am back in England. Best regards Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 3:17 PM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Try the following................ St Augustine's Catholic Chapel, Granby Row. Manchester, Lancashire. This is one my Salford FITZMORRIS/MORRIS relatives married in. New Cross would be about 10 minutes walk from Granby Row. But you could try the following............. Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1874 ROBERTS Emily Kate Salford Greengate Salford GRE/113/27 Regards Mike Morris Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com >Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 8:27:50 PM >Subject: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > >I am struggling to find the birth of my great grandmother, Emily >Roberts who would have been born in Manchester around 1874-75. I have >ordered several certificates and the parents' names don't match with >her MC, so I am trying to find a baptism instead. In 1871 the family >was living in Greengate, Salford and in 1881 they were in New Cross, >Manchester, so I wondered if anyone could tell me which catholic >parishes would have covered both of those areas in the mid 1870s? > >Many thanks >Joanne > > > > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > >Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. >Other people can learn from them! > >Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > >Please SNIP when replying. > >Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No >fees! > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Anne Thank you for that link. It's very useful and I have now found the reference Mike gave me. I am still not convinced it is my Emily because of the middle name, but I think it is probably worth ordering just to check. Sadly the online ordering facility for Salford is not working at the moment so I will have to do it the slow way. Best regards Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of anne walsh Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 7:22 PM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Hi Joanne, it's from Lancashire bmd www.lancashirebmd.org.uk if you click on the ref. number it will open a new page if you wish to buy the certificate. HTH Anne On 17 February 2013 06:23, Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com>wrote: > Can you please tell me where you found the reference for Emily Kate? > It doesn't look like a GRO reference number so I wondered where else > you had been able to look. There is no reference anywhere else to her > having had a middle name, but it is unlikely that she wasn't > registered so it would definitely be worth my while looking into that one further. > > Best wishes > Joanne > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris > Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 3:17 PM > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > > > > Try the following................ > > St Augustine's Catholic Chapel, Granby Row. Manchester, Lancashire. > This is one my Salford FITZMORRIS/MORRIS relatives married in. > > New Cross would be about 10 minutes walk from Granby Row. > > But you could try the following............. > > Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1874 > > ROBERTS Emily Kate Salford Greengate Salford GRE/113/27 > > Regards > Mike Morris > Toronto Canada > > > >________________________________ > > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> > >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > >Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 8:27:50 PM > >Subject: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > > > >I am struggling to find the birth of my great grandmother, Emily > >Roberts who would have been born in Manchester around 1874-75. I have > >ordered several certificates and the parents' names don't match with > >her MC, so I am trying to find a baptism instead. In 1871 the family > >was living in Greengate, Salford and in 1881 they were in New Cross, > >Manchester, so I wondered if anyone could tell me which catholic > >parishes would have covered both of those areas in the mid 1870s? > > > >Many thanks > >Joanne > > > > > > > > > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > >Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > >Other people can learn from them! > > > >Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > > >Please SNIP when replying. > > > >Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. > >No fees! > > > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > Please SNIP when replying. > > Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No > fees! > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Both! But the Lancashire BMD one first because I can view that one online. Thanks Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 12:38 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Which one are you going to try? Regards Mike Morris Toronto canada ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:20:03 AM >T hank you very much. I will give that a go. > > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris > Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 3:17 PM > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > > > > Try the following................ > > St Augustine's Catholic Chapel, Granby Row. Manchester, Lancashire. This is > one my Salford FITZMORRIS/MORRIS relatives married in. ....... > > Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1874 > > ROBERTS Emily Kate Salford Greengate Salford GRE/113/27 <snip> :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 12:45 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Hi Joanne, Its from the following site. www.lancashirebmd.org.uk Cheers Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> > To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 1:23:53 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > > Can you please tell me where you found the reference for Emily Kate? It > doesn’t look like a GRO reference number <snip>: :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Irene Thank you very much for the advice. I just searched for the marriage on Ancestry, and hey presto, there it was! I really didn't think it would be there, having failed to find it on Family Search. Sadly, it doesn't include the information I really was hoping for which is the bride's father's name, but I am happy to have the certificate and be able to tick it off the list as another route tried in any case. While I am on the subject something rather unusual came up to do with this family yesterday and I wonder what anyone's thoughts are on this? My 3 x great grandmother was Elizabeth Cardwell (she of the 1828 marriage to William Roberts) and in the 1841 census she is in the same household as an Ellen Cardwell. Both women are listed as 30, so born about 1806-1811. I decided to treat them as sisters and search for parents who baptised girls of both of these names in those years. I found a baptism of an Ellen Cardwell in Manchester Cathedral on 28 Dec 1806, daughter of William and Mary, so she is a perfect fit for the Ellen Cardwell of the 1841 census. I also found a baptism of Elizabeth Cardwell, daughter of William and Mary, however, she was baptised on 5 October in the same year as Ellen and the records states that she was baptised in a non-conformist church. Can anyone suggest why a set of parents might baptise two children only three months apart and in churches of different denominations, or should I just accept that these two girls are not the sisters I am looking for? There are a couple of other Elizabeth Cardwell baptisms on Family Search but none match as closely in location or year as this one does. Many thanks Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irene Marlborough Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 2:57 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral Hello Joanne: If the parish record images you are currently using are from familysearch then I think there's not much of anything useful for the Cathedral otherwise known as the Collegiate Church and dedicated to St. Mary, St. Denys and St. George. However, recently, Ancestry have made a large number of Manchester parish record images available. This does include the Collegiate church and St Mary Parsonage (a different church). Not everything is there though. I can't seem to find Cathedral marriages for 1858 nor St John's 1848 marriages. I don't know if this is an oversight or if these are just missing. It's certainly very nice to be able to look at these images and use the search engine - though the way the search works is driving me crazy. If you live in the UK, then you should be able to use your public library to view Ancestry's web site. Otherwise, I believe it's possible to visit an LDS Genealogical library and get access there. Sometimes just posting a query to the list will get you some results! Best wishes, Irene :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Anthony Her parents were John Roberts and Mary Maroney. They are in the 1881 census but Emily's age is listed as 9 years old there. To be honest, this family has their children's ages all over the place in several different records to the extent that one daughter ages 20 years between 1871 and 1881, but I have managed to confirm the parents' names by finding the birth certificates of two of their children will less common forenames. I believe I have found Emily in 1891 living with her sister Mary Ann in Coates Street, New Cross, but the rest of the family is completely absent, except for Cornelius who is in the Army barracks at Woolwich. I think John and Mary might have died between 1881 and 1891 and am due to follow up a couple of possible death records for them. This family really makes me appreciate my ancestors with unusual surnames! Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Michael Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 5:04 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Do you know her parents names by any chance? also i cant seem to find them in the 1881 census. Could you give me her parents names and i can look from there and go back and maybe find her baptism for you ________________________________ From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:27 PM Subject: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 I am struggling to find the birth of my great grandmother, Emily Roberts who would have been born in Manchester around 1874-75. I have ordered several certificates and the parents' names don't match with her MC, so I am trying to find a baptism instead. In 1871 the family was living in Greengate, Salford and in 1881 they were in New Cross, Manchester, so I wondered if anyone could tell me which catholic parishes would have covered both of those areas in the mid 1870s? Many thanks Joanne :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you for the advice, but I have now found them on Ancestry, thanks to Irene pointing out that they hold Manchester Cathedral records which Family Search doesnt have. Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lorraine Levien Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 7:35 AM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral Try looking in Find Your Past. They may have them -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Joanne Humphrey Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 7:35 p.m. To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-MAN] Marriage Records for Manchester Cathedral A few months back someone put a link on here where it was possible to view actual parish records for Lancashire, Cheshire and Yorkshire. This has been an absolute godsend, and I use it a lot, but at the moment I am looking for a marriage which took place in Manchester Cathedral in 1828 and I can't work out what it would be listed as. I have done some Googling and discovered that the Cathedral is also known as Manchester Collegiate and St Mary, St Denys and St George but I tried looking in St Mary's Parsonage and I think that's a different church. Can anyone advise me what, if anything the Cathedral is listed as and if it isnt on there, do you know if there are plans for it to be added at a later date? Thank you Joanne -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike Morris Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 3:17 PM To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 Try the following................ St Augustine's Catholic Chapel, Granby Row. Manchester, Lancashire. This is one my Salford FITZMORRIS/MORRIS relatives married in. New Cross would be about 10 minutes walk from Granby Row. But you could try the following............. Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1874 ROBERTS Emily Kate Salford Greengate Salford GRE/113/27 Regards Mike Morris Toronto Canada >________________________________ > From: Joanne Humphrey <joanne1humphrey@gmail.com> >To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com >Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 8:27:50 PM >Subject: [ENG-MAN] Catholic Baptism 1875 > >I am struggling to find the birth of my great grandmother, Emily >Roberts who would have been born in Manchester around 1874-75. I have >ordered several certificates and the parents' names don't match with >her MC, so I am trying to find a baptism instead. In 1871 the family >was living in Greengate, Salford and in 1881 they were in New Cross, >Manchester, so I wondered if anyone could tell me which catholic >parishes would have covered both of those areas in the mid 1870s? > >Many thanks >Joanne > > > > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > >Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. >Other people can learn from them! > >Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > >Please SNIP when replying. > >Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No >fees! > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Please SNIP when replying. Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message