There was a William Shepherd a Joiner living at 72 Crown street in 1849. North east of the barracks. Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROB SHEPHERD" <robshepherd1974@googlemail.com> To: "eng-manchester-l" <ENG-MANCHESTER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:54 PM > > My ancestor George Shepherd was a shoemaker in Hulme around 1825. In lived > in close proximity to Hulme Cavalry Barracks. I'm wondering if he may have > been employed here. <snipped>

A map dated 1844 was e-mailed. It shows a shoemakers shop in the Barracks. Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROB SHEPHERD" <robshepherd1974@googlemail.com> To: "eng-manchester-l" <ENG-MANCHESTER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:54 PM > > My ancestor George Shepherd was a shoemaker in Hulme around 1825. In lived > in close proximity to Hulme Cavalry Barracks. I'm wondering if he may > have been employed here. Would anyone be able to email me any maps of the barracks? <snipped>

A Google search (Genuki) says try Walley for Reedly Hallows. There are three churches there. Mike Morris Toronto Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Morris" <morrisind@rogers.com> To: <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:34 AM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gllykh" <gillykh@cox.net> > To: <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ann" <Gordon.Annbrown@btinternet.com> >> To: <mlfhs@genuki.org.uk>; <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:47 AM >> Subject: [ENG-MAN] Pollard family Burnley >> >> >>>I am trying to identify a church in the Reedly Hallows Marsden Croso. >>> Burnley areas where ancesters may have married baptised their children >>> 1800-1820 >>> >>> Have found all three mentioned on IGI records for baptisms but have no >>> batch >>> number to identify the churches or chapels in question >>> I know there are many but not that many 1800-1820 surely >>> >>> The family lived in the Reedley Hallows area at that time and have seen >>> them >>> on early census before they moved to Salford. >>> >>> One member also gives Church bank or Churchbanks as his place of birth. >>> Sorry I dont know the areas in question as I am not a native >>> Lancastrian. > > > > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Salford Michaelmas Sessions Tuesday: Jacob SALISBURY, was indicted for a theft committed at Bolton. It appeared that the prisoner on the night of the 12th September, slept at the Bank Inn, in Bolton. On his departure the following morning, two of the servants missed a great many articles of wearing apparel from the room in which he had slept. Among the articles stolen was a medal bearing an effigy of the late Duke of York. Nothing more was seen of the prisoner until the 18th, when he was found drinking at the Black Bull, in Bolton, and on his being searched the medal was found in his possession. The jury found the prisoner guilty; and as he had been previously convicted, he was sentenced to fourteen years' transportation. John BONE, who was tried yesterday for stealing the two seals and key of John SHAW, but acquitted, was again put upon his trial for stealing a sovereign, five shillings, and sixpence in copper, from Joseph CALLAND, on the same morning on which SHAW was robbed. The prosecutor stated that about half-past two o'clock in the morning of the 21st September he was returning to his residence in Little Bolton, from his father's house, which is at some distance from the town. On his way through Deansgate, he was accosted near the Nag's Head by five men and a woman, who asked him to go and drink with them. This the witness refused. The prisoner, who was one of the party, then followed him, and put his arm under his, in a seemingly friendly manner. Immediately afterwards, however, he slipped his hand into the witness' jacket pocket, and took out a sovereign, five shillings, and sixpence, so being all that it contained. Witness felt the prisoner do so, but he was afraid to resist, or to charge him with the theft, lest the other men should fall upon him. They therefore seperated in a quiet manner, the witness bidding the prisoner goodnight! Witness then went in search of a constable, but not being able to find one, he called upon his brother; and having obtained his assistance, they sallied forth, accompanied by a boy named KENWORTHY, in search of the prisoner. On their way they met a watchman, who joined them. On coming to the top of Windy Bank they heard a noise, and on going a little farther they found the prisoner and his companions. The prosecutor, Joseph CALLAND, immediately laid hold of the prisoner, and he was secured by CALLAND's brother, and by the watchman. The boy KENWORTHY, the brother James CALLAND, and the watchman, severally corroborated the evidence of the prosecutor in several particulars. KENWORTHY also stated, that while they were taking the prisoner to the dungeon, he made an effort to get one of his hands out of his pocket, and immediately afterwards dropped a sovereign, which he, KENWORTHY instantly picked up. RAWLINSON stated that on searching the prisoner he found one shilling, and sixpence in copper. The prisoner said in his defence that he had received the sovereign which he dropped from his mother, for the purpose of releasing some clothes which were in pawn. To prove this he called his mother, his brother's wife Mary SMITH (who appeared in his behalf yesterday), and a man named Peter PHELAN, sho swore strongly in his favour. On the cross-examination of these witnesses, however, much discrepancy was discovered in several important particulars. Many of their statements were contradictory of wach other; and others were disproved by the witnesses for the prosecution. The chairman having patiently summed up the evidence, the jury immediately found the prisoner guilty. RAWLINSON said, in answer to the chairman's inquiry, that he knew nothing of the prisoner, but that Benjamin ROSS, who was stated to have been one of the party, was a man of bad character. The chairman, in passing sentence, expressed his approbotion of the verdict, and his belief that the prisoner had attempted to support his defence by perjury. It is now quite clear, said the chairman, that Mary SMITH was going about with you from time to time during the whole of the night, and that she was one of a party who were marauding through the town of Bolton; and instead of seeking he husband, as she pretended to be doing, she was there to assist you. I believe that she has been guilty of perjury both in this and the former case. You were no doubt justly acquitted in the former case, because the jury were not convinced of your guilt; but there were few persons who heard that trial who were not conscientiously of opinion that you were guilty of the charge. Your acquittal was owing solely to the circumstace of the prosecutor being mistaken as to one of his seals; but he swore positively to your person, and to the other seal and key. If you had ever before been convicted of felony we should have transported you; but as it is, your case is very aggravated, in consequence of the horrid system of perjury which you have set up to extricate you from the charge. The prisoner was then sentenced to twelve months' imprisonment in Lancaster Castle. The trial lasted about three hours.

I am trying to identify a church in the Reedly Hallows Marsden Croso. Burnley areas where ancesters may have married baptised their children 1800-1820 Have found all three mentioned on IGI records for baptisms but have no batch number to identify the churches or chapels in question I know there are many but not that many 1800-1820 surely The family lived in the Reedley Hallows area at that time and have seen them on early census before they moved to Salford. One member also gives Church bank or Churchbanks as his place of birth. Sorry I dont know the areas in question as I am not a native Lancastrian. Any information at all would be very helpful. Kind regards Ann

Dear listers, In general, were prisoners transported to Australia from the UK at this period? If so, when I have a little more time, I will try and find out what happened to them once they reached here. Regards Ann in Australia -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of arcmikmum@talktalk.net Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 1:49 AM To: Manchester Cc: Lancsgen Subject: [ENG-MAN] Manchester Times October 1828 issue 2 Quarter Sessions Tue The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Salford Michaelmas Sessions Tuesday: Andrew LIDDELL, John EDWARDS, John COLLINS and Robert THOMSON, were charged with picking the pocket of a farmer names HULTON, of twenty three sovereigns and a half, at Turton fair, on the 4th of September. Dr BROWN stated the case, and called Mr HULTON - I was in Turton fair about half-past eleven o'clock on the 4th September. I had twenty three sovereigns and a half in a bag, in my left-hand breeches pocket. My nephew Edward CHARNLEY, was with me. There were seven or eight persons pushing about in the crowd. The prisoner, LIDDELL, struck me with the back of his hand on the breast, saying "make way." I then felt THOMSON's hand in my pocket, and missed my money immediately. COLLINS was then in the crowd with three or four others. They were pushing amongst the crowd. As soon as I could speak, I said "mind the man with the cut in his face," (THOMSON). The four prisoners and three or four others then went away. I pursued them as well as I could. LIDDELL got on a horse. The others were on foot. I followed them to a fold in the fair. LIDDELL then got off his horse, and they all went together in a body behind a cart. I there saw them giving something to one another out of their pockets, and one man went rou! nd the corner of a building and disappeared. I stood beside the horse from which LIDDELL had dismounted, The three other prisoners then passed on one side. LIDDELL came up to the horse, and I asked him if it was on sale. He said, yes sir, and I said, I'll take both you and your horse. He said it was not he that had taken my money. I had not said anything about money at that time. My nephew came up, and I sent him for a constable. Jesse MORTON came and took him. After he was taken, I pursued the others. I was looking for them for more than two hours. I at length found them coming out of the fair. I met EDWARDS and THOMSON together. I met COLLINS in less than half an hour afterwards. He was alone at Mr WOODS public house, in the midst of the fair. They were delivered to the constable. I am certain they are the men. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN for COLLINS - The fair was pretty full. I was present when COLLINS was taken up and searched. There were no sovereigns found upon him. I went with the constable into a room where he was. Cross-examined by Mr BRANDT for LIDDELL - It was about half-past eleven that I lost my money. I did not call out that I had lost my money. The breath was almost knocked out of me. I said mind the man with the cut face. I am a farmer. I have been in the printing buisness. I have been in Lancaster, but not for stealing. I never lost sight of the men until they went behind the cart. LIDDELL was searched. There was some silver found upon him. By the Chairman - EDWARDS was pushing and making way in the crowd. I did not see him do anything particular. Edward CHARNLEY - I am nephew of the last witness. I was with him at Turton fair. LIDDELL came up and pushed him on the breast. He pushed me sideways. I said uncle, have they taken anything from you, for he just favours a pickpocket. He said, take notice of the man with the marked face. I did not notice any others but LIDDELL and THOMSON. When I saw LIDDELL in custody, I knew him to be the same man that had pushed my uncle. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN - I did not see COLLINS until he appeared before the magistrate. Thomas THRELFALL - I was at Turton fair. I saw all the prisoners there about half-past twelve, except LIDDELL. There were five or six others with him. I took particular notice of them. I saw them together an hour and a half. I was present when Thomson was taken. Mr HULTON immediately identified him. Jesse MORTON - I am constable of Ainsworth. I was at Turton fair, and was present when EDWARDS and THOMSON were taken. Cross-examined - LIDDELL said he came from Liverpool. He was a furniture broker, and came over on business. He said he bought the horse from one Mr EDWARDS, of Shaw's Brow, Liverpool, and had come over to sell it at Turton fair. This being the case for the prosecution, Mr BRANDT, in behalf of LIDDELL, called Peter COLLIER - I live at Pendleton. LIDDELL lived there formerly. He kept a shop opposite Leaf Square. I knew him for five years. He was a furniture broker, and removed to Liverpool, where he carried on the same business. He had the character of an honest man. Samuel JENKINSON - I have known LIDDELL two years. He always had a good character, and paid his way. Thomas ROYLANCE - I have known LIDDELL three or four years. I kept a small shop next door to him for 12 months. The Chairman having summed up the evidence, the jury, after a moment's consultation, found all the prisoners guilty. In answer to the inquiries of the chairman, Mr BARRETT, the constable of Bolton, stated that he had received numerous complaints of robberies at Turton fair. The Chairman in passing sentence observed, that it was a painful duty which the court had to perform in a case like this. The prisoners had been convicted upon evidence which was quite sufficient to justify the verdict of the jury. From that evidence, it appeared that a body of seven or eight men had come from a distance to attend a fair for the purpose of committing robberies. It was the bounden duty of the court, a duty from which they dared not, and would not shrink, to take care that they (the prisoners) should not have an opportunity of committing any further robberies in this country for some time to come. It appeared that COLLINS had been convicted at the sessions in July, 1825, for stealing from the person, and was imprisoned for two years in Lancaster Castle. EDWARDS had also been convicted under the name of Jacob HUGHES, and imprisoned three months. Of LIDDELL and THOMSON there were no previous account. He should therefore make a distinction in their sentence! s. The sentence upon COLLINS was, that he be transported for life, and upon each of the other three prisoners, that they be severally transported for fourteen years. The rest of the sessions for tuesday will follow in another email ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1587 - Release Date: 8/2/2008 5:30 PM

Hi Ann, If you would like to post the first names of your Pollard family I will check the fiche I have for the area to see if I can find any matches. Gilly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann" <Gordon.Annbrown@btinternet.com> To: <mlfhs@genuki.org.uk>; <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 7:47 AM Subject: [ENG-MAN] Pollard family Burnley >I am trying to identify a church in the Reedly Hallows Marsden Croso. > Burnley areas where ancesters may have married baptised their children > 1800-1820 > > Have found all three mentioned on IGI records for baptisms but have no > batch > number to identify the churches or chapels in question > I know there are many but not that many 1800-1820 surely > > The family lived in the Reedley Hallows area at that time and have seen > them > on early census before they moved to Salford. > > One member also gives Church bank or Churchbanks as his place of birth. > Sorry I dont know the areas in question as I am not a native Lancastrian. > > > Any information at all would be very helpful. > Kind regards > Ann > > > > > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Viv As there are so few people researching the name RYDER I hope you don't mind my intervention to enquire whether you had any RYDERS from Gorton/Rusholme areas? Sheila Hi David Could I be cheeky and ask a favour? While you are looking would it be possible to see if you can see any Ryder's living in the Blackley area. I have traced my Ryder's from around 1650 up to around 1840ish living in Blackley as Whitsters, I am not sure whether they would have moved to Prestwich by 1841, but if you could have a look I would be grateful. The main names are: Josiah (head) Elizabeth (wife) John Robert Samuel William Ruth William George Many thanks, Viv David Wightmore <dvdwmore@telus.net> wrote: Greetings, I have been looking through the 1841 Blackley Enumeration Distrtict as described by Lorita, and I am unable to find any listing of Sheet, and, looking at the Enumeration Description, I would think it is, in fact Street, and the first "T" is simply not crossed. If her ancestor listing is Jno Hall, 67, weaver, with a son Phillip, 32 and a grandson Jno, 5, they live on Crab Lane. I didn't notice any other Hall listings, but let me know where they are, and I'll look at the census and give you my opinion as to where they live... hth David Wightmore ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Salford Michaelmas Sessions Tuesday: Andrew LIDDELL, John EDWARDS, John COLLINS and Robert THOMSON, were charged with picking the pocket of a farmer names HULTON, of twenty three sovereigns and a half, at Turton fair, on the 4th of September. Dr BROWN stated the case, and called Mr HULTON - I was in Turton fair about half-past eleven o'clock on the 4th September. I had twenty three sovereigns and a half in a bag, in my left-hand breeches pocket. My nephew Edward CHARNLEY, was with me. There were seven or eight persons pushing about in the crowd. The prisoner, LIDDELL, struck me with the back of his hand on the breast, saying "make way." I then felt THOMSON's hand in my pocket, and missed my money immediately. COLLINS was then in the crowd with three or four others. They were pushing amongst the crowd. As soon as I could speak, I said "mind the man with the cut in his face," (THOMSON). The four prisoners and three or four others then went away. I pursued them as well as I could. LIDDELL got on a horse. The others were on foot. I followed them to a fold in the fair. LIDDELL then got off his horse, and they all went together in a body behind a cart. I there saw them giving something to one another out of their pockets, and one man went round the corner of a building and disappeared. I stood beside the horse from which LIDDELL had dismounted, The three other prisoners then passed on one side. LIDDELL came up to the horse, and I asked him if it was on sale. He said, yes sir, and I said, I'll take both you and your horse. He said it was not he that had taken my money. I had not said anything about money at that time. My nephew came up, and I sent him for a constable. Jesse MORTON came and took him. After he was taken, I pursued the others. I was looking for them for more than two hours. I at length found them coming out of the fair. I met EDWARDS and THOMSON together. I met COLLINS in less than half an hour afterwards. He was alone at Mr WOODS public house, in the midst of the fair. They were delivered to the constable. I am certain they are the men. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN for COLLINS - The fair was pretty full. I was present when COLLINS was taken up and searched. There were no sovereigns found upon him. I went with the constable into a room where he was. Cross-examined by Mr BRANDT for LIDDELL - It was about half-past eleven that I lost my money. I did not call out that I had lost my money. The breath was almost knocked out of me. I said mind the man with the cut face. I am a farmer. I have been in the printing buisness. I have been in Lancaster, but not for stealing. I never lost sight of the men until they went behind the cart. LIDDELL was searched. There was some silver found upon him. By the Chairman - EDWARDS was pushing and making way in the crowd. I did not see him do anything particular. Edward CHARNLEY - I am nephew of the last witness. I was with him at Turton fair. LIDDELL came up and pushed him on the breast. He pushed me sideways. I said uncle, have they taken anything from you, for he just favours a pickpocket. He said, take notice of the man with the marked face. I did not notice any others but LIDDELL and THOMSON. When I saw LIDDELL in custody, I knew him to be the same man that had pushed my uncle. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN - I did not see COLLINS until he appeared before the magistrate. Thomas THRELFALL - I was at Turton fair. I saw all the prisoners there about half-past twelve, except LIDDELL. There were five or six others with him. I took particular notice of them. I saw them together an hour and a half. I was present when Thomson was taken. Mr HULTON immediately identified him. Jesse MORTON - I am constable of Ainsworth. I was at Turton fair, and was present when EDWARDS and THOMSON were taken. Cross-examined - LIDDELL said he came from Liverpool. He was a furniture broker, and came over on business. He said he bought the horse from one Mr EDWARDS, of Shaw's Brow, Liverpool, and had come over to sell it at Turton fair. This being the case for the prosecution, Mr BRANDT, in behalf of LIDDELL, called Peter COLLIER - I live at Pendleton. LIDDELL lived there formerly. He kept a shop opposite Leaf Square. I knew him for five years. He was a furniture broker, and removed to Liverpool, where he carried on the same business. He had the character of an honest man. Samuel JENKINSON - I have known LIDDELL two years. He always had a good character, and paid his way. Thomas ROYLANCE - I have known LIDDELL three or four years. I kept a small shop next door to him for 12 months. The Chairman having summed up the evidence, the jury, after a moment's consultation, found all the prisoners guilty. In answer to the inquiries of the chairman, Mr BARRETT, the constable of Bolton, stated that he had received numerous complaints of robberies at Turton fair. The Chairman in passing sentence observed, that it was a painful duty which the court had to perform in a case like this. The prisoners had been convicted upon evidence which was quite sufficient to justify the verdict of the jury. From that evidence, it appeared that a body of seven or eight men had come from a distance to attend a fair for the purpose of committing robberies. It was the bounden duty of the court, a duty from which they dared not, and would not shrink, to take care that they (the prisoners) should not have an opportunity of committing any further robberies in this country for some time to come. It appeared that COLLINS had been convicted at the sessions in July, 1825, for stealing from the person, and was imprisoned for two years in Lancaster Castle. EDWARDS had also been convicted under the name of Jacob HUGHES, and imprisoned three months. Of LIDDELL and THOMSON there were no previous account. He should therefore make a distinction in their sentences. The sentence upon COLLINS was, that he be transported for life, and upon each of the other three prisoners, that they be severally transported for fourteen years. The rest of the sessions for tuesday will follow in another email

The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Salford Michaelmas Sessions Tuesday: Andrew LIDDELL, John EDWARDS, John COLLINS and Robert THOMSON, were charged with picking the pocket of a farmer names HULTON, of twenty three sovereigns and a half, at Turton fair, on the 4th of September. Dr BROWN stated the case, and called Mr HULTON - I was in Turton fair about half-past eleven o'clock on the 4th September. I had twenty three sovereigns and a half in a bag, in my left-hand breeches pocket. My nephew Edward CHARNLEY, was with me. There were seven or eight persons pushing about in the crowd. The prisoner, LIDDELL, struck me with the back of his hand on the breast, saying "make way." I then felt THOMSON's hand in my pocket, and missed my money immediately. COLLINS was then in the crowd with three or four others. They were pushing amongst the crowd. As soon as I could speak, I said "mind the man with the cut in his face," (THOMSON). The four prisoners and three or four others then went away. I pursued them as well as I could. LIDDELL got on a horse. The others were on foot. I followed them to a fold in the fair. LIDDELL then got off his horse, and they all went together in a body behind a cart. I there saw them giving something to one another out of their pockets, and one man went round the corner of a building and disappeared. I stood beside the horse from which LIDDELL had dismounted, The three other prisoners then passed on one side. LIDDELL came up to the horse, and I asked him if it was on sale. He said, yes sir, and I said, I'll take both you and your horse. He said it was not he that had taken my money. I had not said anything about money at that time. My nephew came up, and I sent him for a constable. Jesse MORTON came and took him. After he was taken, I pursued the others. I was looking for them for more than two hours. I at length found them coming out of the fair. I met EDWARDS and THOMSON together. I met COLLINS in less than half an hour afterwards. He was alone at Mr WOODS public house, in the midst of the fair. They were delivered to the constable. I am certain they are the men. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN for COLLINS - The fair was pretty full. I was present when COLLINS was taken up and searched. There were no sovereigns found upon him. I went with the constable into a room where he was. Cross-examined by Mr BRANDT for LIDDELL - It was about half-past eleven that I lost my money. I did not call out that I had lost my money. The breath was almost knocked out of me. I said mind the man with the cut face. I am a farmer. I have been in the printing buisness. I have been in Lancaster, but not for stealing. I never lost sight of the men until they went behind the cart. LIDDELL was searched. There was some silver found upon him. By the Chairman - EDWARDS was pushing and making way in the crowd. I did not see him do anything particular. Edward CHARNLEY - I am nephew of the last witness. I was with him at Turton fair. LIDDELL came up and pushed him on the breast. He pushed me sideways. I said uncle, have they taken anything from you, for he just favours a pickpocket. He said, take notice of the man with the marked face. I did not notice any others but LIDDELL and THOMSON. When I saw LIDDELL in custody, I knew him to be the same man that had pushed my uncle. Cross-examined by Mr COLTMAN - I did not see COLLINS until he appeared before the magistrate. Thomas THRELFALL - I was at Turton fair. I saw all the prisoners there about half-past twelve, except LIDDELL. There were five or six others with him. I took particular notice of them. I saw them together an hour and a half. I was present when Thomson was taken. Mr HULTON immediately identified him. Jesse MORTON - I am constable of Ainsworth. I was at Turton fair, and was present when EDWARDS and THOMSON were taken. Cross-examined - LIDDELL said he came from Liverpool. He was a furniture broker, and came over on business. He said he bought the horse from one Mr EDWARDS, of Shaw's Brow, Liverpool, and had come over to sell it at Turton fair. This being the case for the prosecution, Mr BRANDT, in behalf of LIDDELL, called Peter COLLIER - I live at Pendleton. LIDDELL lived there formerly. He kept a shop opposite Leaf Square. I knew him for five years. He was a furniture broker, and removed to Liverpool, where he carried on the same business. He had the character of an honest man. Samuel JENKINSON - I have known LIDDELL two years. He always had a good character, and paid his way. Thomas ROYLANCE - I have known LIDDELL three or four years. I kept a small shop next door to him for 12 months. The Chairman having summed up the evidence, the jury, after a moment's consultation, found all the prisoners guilty. In answer to the inquiries of the chairman, Mr BARRETT, the constable of Bolton, stated that he had received numerous complaints of robberies at Turton fair. The Chairman in passing sentence observed, that it was a painful duty which the court had to perform in a case like this. The prisoners had been convicted upon evidence which was quite sufficient to justify the verdict of the jury. From that evidence, it appeared that a body of seven or eight men had come from a distance to attend a fair for the purpose of committing robberies. It was the bounden duty of the court, a duty from which they dared not, and would not shrink, to take care that they (the prisoners) should not have an opportunity of committing any further robberies in this country for some time to come. It appeared that COLLINS had been convicted at the sessions in July, 1825, for stealing from the person, and was imprisoned for two years in Lancaster Castle. EDWARDS had also been convicted under the name of Jacob HUGHES, and imprisoned three months. Of LIDDELL and THOMSON there were no previous account. He should therefore make a distinction in their sentences. The sentence upon COLLINS was, that he be transported for life, and upon each of the other three prisoners, that they be severally transported for fourteen years. The rest of the sessions for tuesday will follow in another email.

Not a peep from anyone. I guess that everyone is fast asleep getting ready for the next work day. Kergan in Tucson In a message dated 8/3/2008 1:03:47 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jbell22@msn.com writes: I didn't see a reply to your question about access to the Manchester Times, did someone tell you the answer? Julie Bell (jbell22@msn.com) Thanks> From: KERJEANNE@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:35:23 -0400> To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> Subject: [ENG-MAN] Manchester Times> > How does one get access to pre 1840 issues of the Manchester Times.?> > Kergan in Tucson, USA> > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )> > > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~> > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list.> Other people can learn from them!> > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Hi Kathryn It's definitely say's Henry, its seems like Isaac and Henry are the brothers with Henry as their father. Jane :o) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney, Kathryn" <KCOURTNE@housing.uiuc.edu> To: <eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-MAN] Manchester Times October 1828 issue 1 BMD's > Thank you for transcribing these. I have the name NIELD in my line. I > wonder if you could double-check the entry below that mentions Henry > NIELD? Perhaps the brother's name is something other than Henry? > Kathryn > > > > At the Friends' Meeting House, on Thursday last, Isaac, son of the late > Henry NIELD, to Sarah WORTHINGTON, eldest daughter of John WORTHINGTON, > silk and cotton manufacturer; also at the same time and place, Henry > NIELD, confectioner, brother of the above, to Hannah JACKSON, daughter > of James JACKSON of Lancaster, schoolmaster. > >

The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Salford Michaelmas Sessions Monday: John WHITTAKER and John ROBINSON stood charged with stealing a pair of trowsers from John WIBERLY. The case was simply this:- The two prisoners went to the stall of the prosecutor, who was selling ready-made clothes in the market at Rochdale, and while ROBINSON was looking at some clothing, WHITTAKER contrived to secret a pair of trowsers, and walk away with them. The transaction, however, seen by a man named BUTTERWORTH, who cried "stop thief," and WHITTAKER was stopped, and taken back to the stall, where ROBINSON was charged with being accessary to the robbery, which he denied, and said he knew nothing of WHITTAKER. WHITTAKER had pleaded guilty, and ROBINSON not guilty, and the only question for the jury to try was whether ROBINSON was cognizant of the felony. The same witness who saw the robbery, declared that he had also seen the prisoners on the Yorkshire road together, coming toward Rochdale; and the prosecutor stated, that they seemed to be intimately acquainted, and assisted each other to fit the clothes on. In his defence ROBINSON again denied that he had ever seen WHITTAKER before they met together at the stall, and WHITTAKER said the same. The circumstances in ROBINSON's favour were, that he did not attempt to go away with WHITTAKER, and when searched had £1 18s upon him, while WHITTAKER had nothing. The jury found ROBINSON not guilty, and WHITTAKER guilty; but not having been previously convicted, he was sentenced to three months imprisonment. Sarah SHACKLETON, Nancy STANFIELD and Hannah NUTTALL, were indicted for stealing a pair of shoes from a shopkeeper at Todmorden, named ROBERTS. The three prisoners had gone into the prosecutor's shop, and asked to see some shoes. There were none that suited them, and they were leaving the shop without purchasing anything, when Mr ROBERT's son stopped STANFIELD, and took from her a pair of shoes which he accused her of having stolen. She denied it, and said she had brought them in with her; and further said to SHACKLETON, "you brought them from Manchester last week, did not you?" SHACKLETON did not reply, but on STANFIELD repeating the question, she replied that she had. Being certain that they were his father's shoes, he took the prisoners into custody, and, on being searched, SHACKLETON alone had any money. STANFIELD pleaded guilty, and, as in the last case, the only question was whether the parties were all cognizant to the felony. The jury found Hannah NUTTALL not guilty, and Sarah SHACKLETON guilty; and she and STANFIELD were sentenced to three months imprisonment. John BONE stood indicted for having stolen two gold seals, one watch key, and one ring, from the person of John SHAW, at Bolton, on the 21st of September. John SHAW stated, that he was a chair-maker at Little Bolton, and was passing along bank street about one o'clock of the morning of the 21st of September, when he was met by the prisoner and two other men. The prisoner asked him where he was going, and on his replying that he was not going far, said he should treat them. Prosecutor said he would not, and was crossing the street to go away, when someone struck him on the back. He turned round and asked what that was for, and the prisoner replied "to make you pay for a quart of ale," and at the same moment snatched at his watch ribbon, which broke, leaving the seals, key, and ring in the prisoner's possession. He and the men then ran away, pursued by him, but they got away. RAWLINSON, the constable of Bolton, stated that he took the prisoner into custody the same morning, and found in his possession the ribbon, seals, key, and ring, which were produced. The prosecutor was recalled, and identified the articles as his; and the were handed over to the chairman for his inspection. Chairman - How do you know these seals? Prosecutor - I know them very well; one of the seals has a head on, and the other is plain. Chairman - Then if one of them has not a head on they are not yours? Prosecutor - No. Chairman - Then look at this, and see if it is a head. I think it is a pigeon carrying a letter. The prosecutor examined the seals, and looked rather blank when he found that it was as the chairman had stated. He insisted that they were his seals nevertheless. Chairman - That will not do for the jury, I assure you, nor for me either. How can you possibly say they are yours, when one of yours has a head on. The prosecutor said he supposed he must be mistaken about the head; he know the other seal better, and was sure they were his. The prisoner, on being asked for his defence, said that seals were given to him by a woman who was in the court. The woman in question, Jane SMITH, the wife of the prisoner's brother, stated that she and the prisoner and two other men were going home about half-past one along Bank street, when she picked up the seals, which she gave to the prisoner. One of the men who was with her confirmed this statement. The chairman put it to the jury whether, from the evidence of the prosecutor, they were satisfied as to the identity, and if so, if the prisoner's was the hand that snatched the seals. The jury acquitted the prisoner.

I didn't see a reply to your question about access to the Manchester Times, did someone tell you the answer? Julie Bell (jbell22@msn.com) Thanks> From: KERJEANNE@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:35:23 -0400> To: eng-manchester@rootsweb.com> Subject: [ENG-MAN] Manchester Times> > How does one get access to pre 1840 issues of the Manchester Times.?> > Kergan in Tucson, USA> > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )> > > > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~> > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list.> Other people can learn from them!> > ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How does one get access to pre 1840 issues of the Manchester Times.? Kergan in Tucson, USA **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

The Manchester Times Friday, October 24th 1828 Births: On the 5th instant, at Tunbridge Wells, Lady Jane Lawrence PEEL, of a son, which survived only a few days. Marriages: On the 12th instant, at the Collegiate Church, Mr Nicholas RYDER, of Salford, professor of music, to Mary, eldest daughter of the late Richard SMETHURST, Esq. of the same place. On the 11th inst. at St John's Church, Mr J. ANDREW of Manchester, attorney-at-law, to Miss Ann Taylor HARROP, of Newton. On the 21st inst. at the Collegiate Church, Mr William HUMPHREYS, of Kinnersley, in Salop, to Miss Mary DAVIES of this town. On the 22d inst. at the same place, Samuel MATLEY, Esq. to Miss Mary Louisa MOORE of Ardwick. On the 24th inst. at the same place, Mr Danl. HEYWOOD, of Hulme, to Miss Jane WOOD, of Newton. On the 18th instant, at the parish church, at Winwick, having been previously married by the Rev. Joseph CURR, at the Roman Catholic chapel, at Ashton-in-the-Willows, Mr Thomas ELLISON, of Glossop, Derbyshire, to Juliana, fifth daughter of the late John CURR, Esq. of Belle Vue, near Sheffield. On the 16th instant, at the Collegiate Church, Mr Robert BOWMAN of Ashton-under-Lyne, exciseman, to Miss Mary FISHWICK, of Newton. On the 20th instant, at St John's Church, by the Rev. R. DALLAS, Mt Thomas HOWE, formerly of Bishop's Castle, Shropshire, to Miss Ellen RATCLIFFE, of Cheetwood. On the 15th instant, at Bury, Wm. BROMILOW, jun. Esq. of Harr Finch House, near St Helen's, to Mary, eldest daughter of John McLLADEN, Esq. of Meadowcroft, near Rochdale. Same day, at Middleton, Robert KAYE, Esq. of Bolton, to Ellen, daughter of the late John TAYLOR, Esq. of Bradford House, near Bolton. Deaths: On the 17th instant, in the 21st year of her age, Elizabeth, wife of Robert BARBOUR, of Mosley Street. On Monday last, Mr James BURY, son of Mr John BURY, Bolton Street, Salford. On the 12th instant, at his chambers, Gray's Inn Square, deeply regretted, H. W. TEMPLE, Esq. barrister-at-law, eldest son of the late M. TEMPLE, Esq. of Leeds. On Tuesday last, aged 27, Mr John BURNS, of the south dispensary, Liverpool, and late of this town. On Sunday last, Mrs Mary HENDERSON, at the advanced age of 84. She was, for more than half a century, the faithful housekeeper of the late William POLE, Esq. of Wavertree, near Liverpool. On the 9th instant, at Boughton Hall, near Chester, Susanna, eldest daughter of W. CURRIE, M.D. On the 14th instant, the Rev. Mr EVANS, of Bromsgrove, Dissenting Minister. He recently officiated in the Independent Chapel at Hales Owen; but having been compelled to resign his public duties, through infirm health, had gone to visit a friend at St Alban's. On the 6th, while waiting in the high road for a coach to convey him to London, he was knocked down by a gentleman's carriage, and expired on Tuesday. On the 18th instant, aged 60, Fanny, wife of Thomas EVANS, of Dunham Massey, and late of Hoo Green, after a long and painful illness, supported with great patience and fortitude, and much regretted by her relations and a numerous circle of friends.

The Manchester Times Friday, October 17th 1828 Street Robbery: On Thursday, a man named William JONES was brought up at the New Bailey, charged with robbing a gentleman of the name TAYLOR, of his watch and two sovereigns, on Wednesday night. It appeared from the evidence, that Mr. TAYLOR was passing along Ancoats Street, in a state of intoxication, when a boy came up, and under pretence of assisting him home, conveyed him into a back street. Two gentlemen who were passing, suspected from their manner that all was not right, and followed them. The lad was sent back to be on the lookout, and the gentlemen pretending they had mistaken the street, turned as if they were going away, but still kept looking round, when they saw Mr. TAYLOR suddenly thrown down. The gentlemen immediately ran up, and seized the prisoner, the others ran off. The watch was next morning sent to Mr. TAYLOR's house by a little boy, who, however, could not tell any thing of the persons who sent him. JONES told the usual story in such cases; he saw a row, he came to see what it was and was seized, although he know'd nothing of either the man or the watch. Mr LAVENDER, however, know'd him very well, and he was commited to the _____ (last word isn't readable)

The Manchester Times Friday, October 17th 1828 Births: On the 10th instant, the lady of William HULTON, Esq. of Hulton, was safely delivered of a son; being her sixteenth child, twelve of whom are living. On the 5th instant, at her father's mansion in the city of Chester, the lady of the Hon. C. NAPIER, of a son. Marriages: On Thursday last, at the Collegiate Church, Mr BARDSLEY, to Mrs. Ann WATERS, both of this town, after a courtship of eighteen years. On the 9th inst., at St John's church, by the Rev. R. DALLAS, Mr Thomas HINDLEY, to Miss Elizabeth PEEL, niece to Mrs KENYON, Broughton Tavern, Broughton Rd, Salford On Tuesday last, at the Collegiate Church, Mr John ROBERTS, to Miss Ann DRAPE, both of this town. On the 13th instant, at St John's, by Rev. R. DALLAS, Mr Wm. ANDERSON, to Miss Ann ELLAM, both of this town. On the 4th instant, at St. Alkmond's, Derby, Spencer PHILLIPS, Esq. of the 6th Dragoon Guards, to Miss Eliza STEEDMAN, eldest daughter of the late Mr. G. HUDSON, surgeon, of this town. On the 6th instant, at Alderley, by the Rev. Edward STANLEY, Henry John ADEANE, of Babraham, in the county of Cambridge, Esq. to Matilda Abigail, daughter of Sir John Thomas STANLEY, Bart, of Alderley Park, in the county of Chester. At the Friends' Meeting House, on Thursday last, Isaac, son of the late Henry NIELD, to Sarah WORTHINGTON, eldest daughter of John WORTHINGTON, silk and cotton manufacturer; also at the same time and place, Henry NIELD, confectioner, brother of the above, to Hannah JACKSON, daughter of James JACKSON of Lancaster, schoolmaster. Deaths: A few days ago, in his 68th year, Mr James INGHAM, builder of Salford: he was a truly inoffensive man, and was highly respected by a large circle of acquaintance. On the 8th instant, after a few hours sickness, in the 51st year of her age, Mary, wife of Mr C. READE, of Oldfield Rd. On the 10th instant, at his house in Piccadilly, in the 64th year of his age, James WHITEHEAD, Esq. calico printer; esteemed by all who had the pleasure of his acquaintance. On the 5th instant, at Rochdale, Joshua DEARDEN, Esq., Captain in the 3rd Regiment of Royal Lancashire Militia: in the 44th year of his age. On the 2nd instant, at Broughton Ford, Mr Joseph TINKE_ (unable to see last letter) aged 63 years. He was a truly honest, upright man, and much esteemed in the neighbourhood. On the 7th instant, in consequence of a relapse of fever, Mr Henry BRADY, aged about 30 years; grammer master at Ac_worth school. On the 2d instant, aged 79, Mr. T. OKELL, farmer, of Barrow, Cheshire. On the 20th ult. at Aloa, John Thomas ERSKINE, Earl __ Mar, Lord ERSKINE, Viscout Garloch. He succeded h__ father in 1825. On the 21st ult. at Hollingworth, Cheshire, Mr John SCHOFIELD, aged 82. He was attended to the grave by 7 children and 31 grandchildren. Mr SCHOFIELD was the oldest spinner of cotton on what is called a 'common jenny.' The description yarn that he spun nearly fifty years ago, and what he then h__ guineas per pound for, would not, now, fetch as many shillings. Lately, at Kingsdown, near Bristol, in her 68th year, Sarah, only surviving daughter of the late Rev. Charles WESLEY, M. _ of Christ's College, Oxford, and niece of the Rev. John WESLEY, the celebrated founder of the Wesleyan Methodist Society. At Stirling, on the 16th ult. Mrs Mary DOWIE, aged 85 years. She had a perfect recollection of the rebellion, and heard th_ explosion of the powder magazine, then in St Ni_ian's church when it was blown up by the Highlanders, on their retreat __ the north.

Thank you for transcribing these. I have the name NIELD in my line. I wonder if you could double-check the entry below that mentions Henry NIELD? Perhaps the brother's name is something other than Henry? Kathryn -----Original Message----- From: eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-manchester-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of arcmikmum@talktalk.net Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 5:55 AM To: Manchester Cc: Lancsgen; Derby Subject: [ENG-MAN] Manchester Times October 1828 issue 1 BMD's The Manchester Times Friday, October 17th 1828 Births: On the 10th instant, the lady of William HULTON, Esq. of Hulton, was safely delivered of a son; being her sixteenth child, twelve of whom are living. On the 5th instant, at her father's mansion in the city of Chester, the lady of the Hon. C. NAPIER, of a son. Marriages: On Thursday last, at the Collegiate Church, Mr BARDSLEY, to Mrs. Ann WATERS, both of this town, after a courtship of eighteen years. On the 9th inst., at St John's church, by the Rev. R. DALLAS, Mr Thomas HINDLEY, to Miss Elizabeth PEEL, niece to Mrs KENYON, Broughton Tavern, Broughton Rd, Salford On Tuesday last, at the Collegiate Church, Mr John ROBERTS, to Miss Ann DRAPE, both of this town. On the 13th instant, at St John's, by Rev. R. DALLAS, Mr Wm. ANDERSON, to Miss Ann ELLAM, both of this town. On the 4th instant, at St. Alkmond's, Derby, Spencer PHILLIPS, Esq. of the 6th Dragoon Guards, to Miss Eliza STEEDMAN, eldest daughter of the late Mr. G. HUDSON, surgeon, of this town. On the 6th instant, at Alderley, by the Rev. Edward STANLEY, Henry John ADEANE, of Babraham, in the county of Cambridge, Esq. to Matilda Abigail, daughter of Sir John Thomas STANLEY, Bart, of Alderley Park, in the county of Chester. At the Friends' Meeting House, on Thursday last, Isaac, son of the late Henry NIELD, to Sarah WORTHINGTON, eldest daughter of John WORTHINGTON, silk and cotton manufacturer; also at the same time and place, Henry NIELD, confectioner, brother of the above, to Hannah JACKSON, daughter of James JACKSON of Lancaster, schoolmaster. Deaths: A few days ago, in his 68th year, Mr James INGHAM, builder of Salford: he was a truly inoffensive man, and was highly respected by a large circle of acquaintance. On the 8th instant, after a few hours sickness, in the 51st year of her age, Mary, wife of Mr C. READE, of Oldfield Rd. On the 10th instant, at his house in Piccadilly, in the 64th year of his age, James WHITEHEAD, Esq. calico printer; esteemed by all who had the pleasure of his acquaintance. On the 5th instant, at Rochdale, Joshua DEARDEN, Esq., Captain in the 3rd Regiment of Royal Lancashire Militia: in the 44th year of his age. On the 2nd instant, at Broughton Ford, Mr Joseph TINKE_ (unable to see last letter) aged 63 years. He was a truly honest, upright man, and much esteemed in the neighbourhood. On the 7th instant, in consequence of a relapse of fever, Mr Henry BRADY, aged about 30 years; grammer master at Ac_worth school. On the 2d instant, aged 79, Mr. T. OKELL, farmer, of Barrow, Cheshire. On the 20th ult. at Aloa, John Thomas ERSKINE, Earl __ Mar, Lord ERSKINE, Viscout Garloch. He succeded h__ father in 1825. On the 21st ult. at Hollingworth, Cheshire, Mr John SCHOFIELD, aged 82. He was attended to the grave by 7 children and 31 grandchildren. Mr SCHOFIELD was the oldest spinner of cotton on what is called a 'common jenny.' The description yarn that he spun nearly fifty years ago, and what he then h__ guineas per pound for, would not, now, fetch as many shillings. Lately, at Kingsdown, near Bristol, in her 68th year, Sarah, only surviving daughter of the late Rev. Charles WESLEY, M. _ of Christ's College, Oxford, and niece of the Rev. John WESLEY, the celebrated founder of the Wesleyan Methodist Society. At Stirling, on the 16th ult. Mrs Mary DOWIE, aged 85 years. She had a perfect recollection of the rebellion, and heard th_ explosion of the powder magazine, then in St Ni_ian's church when it was blown up by the Highlanders, on their retreat __ the north. ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi David Could I be cheeky and ask a favour? While you are looking would it be possible to see if you can see any Ryder's living in the Blackley area. I have traced my Ryder's from around 1650 up to around 1840ish living in Blackley as Whitsters, I am not sure whether they would have moved to Prestwich by 1841, but if you could have a look I would be grateful. The main names are: Josiah (head) Elizabeth (wife) John Robert Samuel William Ruth William George Many thanks, Viv David Wightmore <dvdwmore@telus.net> wrote: Greetings, I have been looking through the 1841 Blackley Enumeration Distrtict as described by Lorita, and I am unable to find any listing of Sheet, and, looking at the Enumeration Description, I would think it is, in fact Street, and the first "T" is simply not crossed. If her ancestor listing is Jno Hall, 67, weaver, with a son Phillip, 32 and a grandson Jno, 5, they live on Crab Lane. I didn't notice any other Hall listings, but let me know where they are, and I'll look at the census and give you my opinion as to where they live... hth David Wightmore ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-MANCHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message