Hello everyone, After 20 years of looking he is still lost! (at least to me) 23 August 1869 JAMES Murray, age full, bachelor, tailor, residence Everton, father John Murray, also a tailor married Catherine Deegan, full age, spinster, living in Everton, father Malachi Deegan. Married in Church of St Augustine, in the Parish of Walton on the Hill, in the county of Lancaster, after banns, witnesses John Lawton and Margaret Murray (registration district West Derby and Toxteth Park). 1 Feb 1870 John Murray born at 34 Greek Street in the sub-district of Mount Pleasant, Liverpool, County of Lancaster, father's name is JOHN Murray, his mother is Catherine Murray formerly DeegEn, father is a tailor and his signature is J Murray and lives on Greek Street, registered 21 February 1870 (registration district Liverpool). The FAMILY cannot be found in the 1871 census. (I first used microfilm for all of Liverpool, then a CD for all of Lancashire and lastly Ancestry for all of England) When I first started doing this there was no Ancestry or CD’s!!! I have found a couple (with no child listed)that fits nicely, James Murray age 23 journeyman tailor from Scotland with wife Kate age 20 from Ireland. They are at 61 Grey Rock St in West Derby. The "family story" is that James was from Scotland. In the 1881 census of England at 19 Falkland Street in Municipal Ward of Lime Sheet, Parliamentary borough of Liverpool, urban sanitary district of Liverpool, ecclesiastical district of St Mary Magdelens were found in what seems to be an apartment house Catherine Murray, wife, married, age 31 a waistcoat maker born in Ireland with her son John, son, scholar, age 11 born in Lancashire, Liverpool. (she is not called a widow, nor is she head) There is in Manchester a James Murray, boarder, who is married, born in Paisley Scotland, and a woolen manufacturer, at the Corporation St Trevelyn Hotel. (?) He was the only one in all of Lancashire who seemed even a bit to fit. On 7 Aug 1889 Catherine Murray with son John Murray arrived from Liverpool on the ship Wisconsin in New York City, New York, US. They then proceed to Oakland, CA. In Oakland I have found no one they stayed with, the ships record does not have a column for where immigrants were going or with whom they would be staying. Very few others on the ship were from Liverpool )those boarding in Liverpool were from other countries and then there was a stop in Ireland before heading for NY. St Augustine's Church, Greek Street and Falkland Street are all very close together- it seems "likely" that they were there in 1871 but missed?? or their son was not listed with the one suspicious couple?? I have used all Liverpool directories available in the Family History Library in Salt Lake City and back tracked all tailors with the names James and John to the census records to no avail. Son John's death certificate states his father was John Murray born in Scotland My grandmother aka Mrs John Murray was not always truthful about her husband or actually herself. She also always said her husband John Murray (1870-1911) was born in Manchester, which he was not and described his Mom as a fine English lady when she was Irish. My Dad, Douglas, was only two when his Dad, John, died so what he knew about his Dad came thru his Mom. The family story is that James/ John died and then Catherine and John (1870-1911) came to the US. In the ship’s record they were not in steerage but a cabin of sorts so they had a bit of money- which I found surprising. In the US census for 1900 and 1910 John Murray (1870-1911) listed his birth in England and his Dad’s birth in Scotland and his Mom’s in Ireland. I made a list of James Murray deaths in Lancashire for 1871 to Aug 1889 and then ruled out all those who were born after 1855 and before 1821. That left me with 16 possibles. I then prioritized them with the assumptions that James/John was probably born between 1840- 1852 as when they were married in 1869 Catherine was no more than 18. I sent for a death record for my first six choices specifying tailor as profession. They did not send them as he was not a tailor. I then decided this process was going to cost a lot of money. I have done a number of searches in the records in the Family History Library in Salt Lake all to no avail. Including wills, catholic church records in the area, as Catherine definitely was Catholic. Lastly I have had my brother the LAST surviving male in this Murray line back to James/John have his DNA test done so that someday that might be of help. I won't give up but after watching this site for a bit before presenting my dilemma it seems many of you are quite good sleuths and have access to records that I don't. I will be grateful for any thoughts, recommendations or help. Joan Murray Armistead, Hollywood, MD 23A

I looked for Margaret Murray working on the hypothesis that she might be a sister. I found this family in Manchester in 1861. Bearing in mind that Catherine was fibbing when she said she was of full age, James would be 18 or so as well. This would be easier if they were away from their home town. I am stretching it a bit but Margaret the big sister might have used her maiden surname. Being Scottish this would not be all that unusual. If you look at this family you will see that they were all born in Scotland except James, the youngest, born Manchester. The father's job is 'maker up'. I think that might be one of the tailoring trades. That was another point I wanted to make -when you sent for the death certs they would be obliged to say there was no match if you specified tailor. He could have changed job or moved into another job in the same trade. Judy 1861 census Name: Margaret Rhind [Margaret Murray] Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841 Relation: Daughter Spouse's Name: William Father's Name: James Mother's Name: Agness Gender: Female Where born: Glasgow, Scotland Civil parish: Manchester Ecclesiastical parish: St James County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: View image Registration district: Manchester Sub-registration district: London Road ED, institution, or vessel: 8 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 128 Household Members: Name Age James Murray 50 Agness Murray 50 Jonathan A Murray 19 William Rhind 21 Margaret Rhind 20 Agness Murray 13 James Murray 10 View Original Record View original image View blank form

Judy, Thank you for your sleuthing! I was trying to keep my description of my missing ggrandfather a bit short and didn't include one part which I will share with you. Because I have been looking for James/John for soooo long I went back to Scotland at one point (they have such good records online). I looked for all the John Murray's who were tailors in 1851 (figuring James/Johns father would have a family in that time period) and followed the 25- 30 that I found forward. If they had a son named James I followed the family until James died young, married and settled down or became something other than a tailor. Then I took the rest and if James was still in Scotland in 1871 and 1881 dropped them. That left me surprisingly with one family in Lanarkshire. That John Murray the tailor had 7 sons- Andrew born 1831, Thomas 1834, Robert 1836, John 1839, Michael 1842, James 1848, and George 1851. Michael died at 34 in Edinburgh working as a clerk, John dies at age 27. I then followed the other 5 sons. Andrew becomes a tailor, marries a MARGARET Sommerville he has 4 children in Scotland, he is living in Edinburgh in 1861 as a tailor foreman. Andrew and his family disappear from Scotland in the 1871 census. He turns up in LIVERPOOL with his family and working as a tailor foreman. In 1881 he is still in Liverpool but is now a master tailor with 16 workers. In 1871 Andrew and his family were living in the same area as Catherine and James were married and their son John was born. The witnesses were John Lawton who I believe was a tailor after looking at the few John Lawton's living in Liverpool and Margaret Murray was the name of Andrews wife. Back in Scotland the son Thomas became a bootmaker, Robert became a master tailor, and George becomes a teacher. James born in 1848 is with his family in 1851 and 1861 and then disappears from the 1871 census. He never returns to Scotland and never dies in Scotland. The father John dies in 1884 and his wife in 1885. His will had been written in August 1876 and he wills tailor stones to Andrew, Robert and James and other items to those who are not tailors. There is a codicil written later in which the sons Andrew, Robert, and George are mentioned in Oct 1881. In July 1884 when John the father dies- Robert, George, Thomas, and Andrew are mentioned, James is not. None of this proves anything but I found highly suspicious. I looked at your find in Manchester and found the family in 1871- by then both the father James and the husband of Margaret have died and they are all living with the daughter Agnes and her husband but James is not to be found. Did he die? Did he leave the area? Did he go yo Liverpool? ;-) On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:43 PM, judy olsen wrote: > I looked for Margaret Murray working on the hypothesis that she might > be a sister. I found this family in Manchester in 1861. Bearing in > mind that Catherine was fibbing when she said she was of full age, > James would be 18 or so as well. This would be easier if they were > away from their home town. > > I am stretching it a bit but Margaret the big sister might have used > her maiden surname. Being Scottish this would not be all that unusual. > > If you look at this family you will see that they were all born in > Scotland except James, the youngest, born Manchester. > > The father's job is 'maker up'. I think that might be one of the > tailoring trades. > > That was another point I wanted to make -when you sent for the death > certs they would be obliged to say there was no match if you > specified tailor. He could have changed job or moved into another job > in the same trade. > > > Judy > > > > 1861 census > > > Name: Margaret Rhind > [Margaret Murray] > Age: 20 > Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841 > Relation: Daughter > Spouse's Name: William > Father's Name: James > Mother's Name: Agness > Gender: Female > Where born: Glasgow, Scotland > Civil parish: Manchester > Ecclesiastical parish: St James > County/Island: Lancashire > Country: England > Street Address: > > Occupation: > > Condition as to marriage: > > View image > Registration district: Manchester > Sub-registration district: London Road > ED, institution, or vessel: 8 > Neighbors: View others on page > Household schedule number: 128 > Household Members: > Name Age > James Murray 50 > Agness Murray 50 > Jonathan A Murray 19 > William Rhind 21 > Margaret Rhind 20 > Agness Murray 13 > James Murray 10 > View > Original > Record > > > View original image > View blank form > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > > Admin Message - List guidelines: > http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections/AdminMessage.htm > > The list admin can be contacted at > Eng-Liverpool-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LIVERPOOL-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message