Judy, John Murray's will specifically says that if a son dies that their children receive the portion. You and I are thinking alike on this. ;-) Michael died in April 1876 and the original will was written in August 1876- Michael's death might have been an impetus in writing his will. I have marriages for Andrew, Robert, Thomas and George- the only sons known to survive the father. This might help you if you had not considered it. John's will left everything to his wife until her death at which time his bequests would be finalized. In addition all of his 4 known living sons had borrowed money from him in varying amounts and that was taken care of in the codicil. Possibly your Robert Barlow's family inherited after the wife died or his will was tied up in the courts? Good luck with the Barlows, Joan Murray Armistead On Aug 25, 2009, at 4:30 AM, judy olsen wrote: > > A clue to this might be if Michael is included in the 1876 will. If > not, it looks as if John revised his will each time a son died. I > have a will where nothing is left to a daughter who has received a > lot of help during her father's lifetime. I don't think that was > unusual. You might expect James's son to be given what he would have > been due, but not if he had already received his portion. So I > speculate that this is how mother and son got the money for their > cabin. > > Next question, did all the other sons marry? Unmarried aunts and > uncles can be useful as they tend to leave their money to nephews and > nieces, and you sometimes get quite a detailed family tree! > > As so often with these threads your story has made me rethink part of > my own research. We have been trying for ages to link up my partners > known ancestor Robert BARLOW to a possible father and large selection > of brothers. We know that there was a Robert in the family from an > earlier census and ours fits the gap, but we dont have absolute > proof. The patriarch Joseph BARLOW had a bleaching and dyeing > factory in Radcliffe Bridge, Lancs . Robert predeceased him by a few > months, in 1871, and neither he nor his widow and her children are > mentioned in old Joe's will, despite being obviously less well off > than the rest, and Robert is not on the family gravestone. We had > speculated there was a falling out, but could it be that either > through fecklessness or because of his death, Robert and his family > had received their share already. It might seem odd not to mention > him at all but being practical folk, maybe Joe didn't see the point. > I just got Robert's death cert so will need to check if Joe's will > was made just after he died. > > Much later on one of Robert's descendants inherited enough cash to > buy a modest house. No-one now knows where from, but I feel sure the > ultimate source is the 1871 will. Follow the money, as they say. > > > Judy > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Aug 2009, at 03:23, Joan Armistead wrote: > >> Judy, >> >> Thank you for your sleuthing! I was trying to keep my description >> of >> my missing ggrandfather a bit short and didn't include one part which >> I will share with you. Because I have been looking for James/John for >> soooo long I went back to Scotland at one point (they have such good >> records online). I looked for all the John Murray's who were tailors >> in 1851 (figuring James/Johns father would have a family in that time >> period) and followed the 25- 30 that I found forward. If they had a >> son named James I followed the family until James died young, married >> and settled down or became something other than a tailor. Then I took >> the rest and if James was still in Scotland in 1871 and 1881 dropped >> them. That left me surprisingly with one family in Lanarkshire. That >> John Murray the tailor had 7 sons- Andrew born 1831, Thomas 1834, >> Robert 1836, John 1839, Michael 1842, James 1848, and George 1851. >> Michael died at 34 in Edinburgh working as a clerk, John dies at age >> 27. I then followed the other 5 sons. Andrew becomes a tailor, >> marries >> a MARGARET Sommerville he has 4 children in Scotland, he is living in >> Edinburgh in 1861 as a tailor foreman. Andrew and his family >> disappear >> from Scotland in the 1871 census. He turns up in LIVERPOOL with his >> family and working as a tailor foreman. In 1881 he is still in >> Liverpool but is now a master tailor with 16 workers. In 1871 Andrew >> and his family were living in the same area as Catherine and James >> were married and their son John was born. The witnesses were John >> Lawton who I believe was a tailor after looking at the few John >> Lawton's living in Liverpool and Margaret Murray was the name of >> Andrews wife. >> >> Back in Scotland the son Thomas became a bootmaker, Robert became a >> master tailor, and George becomes a teacher. James born in 1848 is >> with his family in 1851 and 1861 and then disappears from the 1871 >> census. He never returns to Scotland and never dies in Scotland. >> >> The father John dies in 1884 and his wife in 1885. His will had been >> written in August 1876 and he wills tailor stones to Andrew, Robert >> and James and other items to those who are not tailors. There is a >> codicil written later in which the sons Andrew, Robert, and George >> are mentioned in Oct 1881. In July 1884 when John the father dies- >> Robert, George, Thomas, and Andrew are mentioned, James is not. None >> of this proves anything but I found highly suspicious. >> >> I looked at your find in Manchester and found the family in 1871- by >> then both the father James and the husband of Margaret have died and >> they are all living with the daughter Agnes and her husband but James >> is not to be found. Did he die? Did he leave the area? Did he go yo >> Liverpool? ;-) >> >> >> On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:43 PM, judy olsen wrote: >> >>> I looked for Margaret Murray working on the hypothesis that she >>> might >>> be a sister. I found this family in Manchester in 1861. Bearing in >>> mind that Catherine was fibbing when she said she was of full age, >>> James would be 18 or so as well. This would be easier if they were >>> away from their home town. >>> >>> I am stretching it a bit but Margaret the big sister might have used >>> her maiden surname. Being Scottish this would not be all that >>> unusual. >>> >>> If you look at this family you will see that they were all born in >>> Scotland except James, the youngest, born Manchester. >>> >>> The father's job is 'maker up'. I think that might be one of the >>> tailoring trades. >>> >>> That was another point I wanted to make -when you sent for the death >>> certs they would be obliged to say there was no match if you >>> specified tailor. He could have changed job or moved into another >>> job >>> in the same trade. >>> >>> >>> Judy >>> >>> >>> >>> 1861 census >>> >>> >>> Name: Margaret Rhind >>> [Margaret Murray] >>> Age: 20 >>> Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841 >>> Relation: Daughter >>> Spouse's Name: William >>> Father's Name: James >>> Mother's Name: Agness >>> Gender: Female >>> Where born: Glasgow, Scotland >>> Civil parish: Manchester >>> Ecclesiastical parish: St James >>> County/Island: Lancashire >>> Country: England >>> Street Address: >>> >>> Occupation: >>> >>> Condition as to marriage: >>> >>> View image >>> Registration district: Manchester >>> Sub-registration district: London Road >>> ED, institution, or vessel: 8 >>> Neighbors: View others on page >>> Household schedule number: 128 >>> Household Members: >>> Name Age >>> James Murray 50 >>> Agness Murray 50 >>> Jonathan A Murray 19 >>> William Rhind 21 >>> Margaret Rhind 20 >>> Agness Murray 13 >>> James Murray 10 >>> View >>> Original >>> Record >>> >>> >>> View original image >>> View blank form >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> >>> Admin Message - List guidelines: >>> http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections/ >>> AdminMessage.htm >>> >>> The list admin can be contacted at >>> Eng-Liverpool-admin@rootsweb.com >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG- >>> LIVERPOOL-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> >> Admin Message - List guidelines: >> http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections/AdminMessage.htm >> >> The list admin can be contacted at >> Eng-Liverpool-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LIVERPOOL- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > > Admin Message - List guidelines: > http://freespace.virgin.net/genealogical.collections/AdminMessage.htm > > The list admin can be contacted at > Eng-Liverpool-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LIVERPOOL-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message