The following documents have been added to the Members Only Area (MOA) of the LFHS website. Miscellaneous Poor Law - Sutton in the Marsh and Wainfleet St Mary parishes Previously unidentified Bishops Transcripts - Kirkby cum Osgodby 1677-78 and Londonthorpe 1737-38; Annual Hiring of servants - Spalding April 1797 The MOA is available only to members of the Lincolnshire Family History Society and offers access to resources not easily available. Members need to register for an account - instructions are in this months Journal. Anne Anne Cole, President, Lincolnshire Family History Society Duncalf(e)/Duncuff/Duncuft One-name Study GOONS member 513 http://www.one-name.org/profiles/duncalf.html http://duncalfonenamestudy.tribalpages.com/ Lincolnshire Post 1837 Marriage Index http://mi.lincolnshiremarriages.org.uk/ Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk

Thanks for all your interesting comments about 1939 Register. I'm a bit wiser now although as some people have expressed, the "blacking out" seems a bit inconsistent. Kindest regards Steve Pinner

I am surprised they have ignored your request to close it, I know others had it done when they found they were open Of those I have found that were still alive but open they were mostly thrilled to find it I understand your concern about being thought gone before your time If it concerns you I would try Findmypast again It happens as humans are involved and humans make mistakes Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13-May-18 9:01 PM, Brenda Davison via ENG-LINCSGEN wrote: > Hi all, > > I contacted Find my past several times to confirm that I was indeed still alive but that my record was ‘’open’’.I requested that they closed it but have been ignored!!!! I have nothing to hide but if any long lost relatives look at it they will write me off as dead!!!Has anyone else had this experience ? > How does this happen ? > Brenda

Hello List Brenda I've had the same experience. When I first used the register on FMP my record was closed. Now it is open on both FMP and Ancestry. Leonard -----Original Message----- From: Brenda Davison via ENG-LINCSGEN Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2018 9:01 PM To: pam@five-oaks.co.uk ; eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Cc: Brenda Davison Subject: [LIN] Re: 1939 England & Wales Register Hi all, I contacted Find my past several times to confirm that I was indeed still alive but that my record was ‘’open’’.I requested that they closed it but have been ignored!!!! I have nothing to hide but if any long lost relatives look at it they will write me off as dead!!!Has anyone else had this experience ? How does this happen ? Brenda Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Pam Downes Sent: 13 May 2018 08:53 To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Re: 1939 England & Wales Register Hi Steve, Do you mean because the 100-year rule which applies to the release of the various censuses? If so, I expect the answer lies in the fact that the 1939 Register isn't a census. As a general rule, people who died before 1991 will have their records open. This is because until 1991 the Register was used in conjunction with the NHS and so as people died they were recorded as such. People's reference number in the 1939 Register was used on their identity cards, and when the NHS was formed that number also became their NHS number. http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm On Findmypast there is a facility for you to request a redacted file be opened by sending FMP a copy of the person's death certificate. Pam Proud to be a member of Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk On 13 May 2018 at 07:46, Margaret Siudek <msiudek@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > No sure about your first question.. > > Answer to second one is that if someone has died, or if they are aged 100 > plus, their name will be shown. But sometimes, Ancestry doesnt know about > a death, or of course, there may be mistakes. > > Margaret > ________________________________ > From: Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Sent: ‎13/‎05/‎2018 07:35 > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Cc: Stephen Pinner<mailto:stephenpinner@aol.com> > Subject: [LIN] 1939 England & Wales Register > > Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 > England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering > why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed > some > names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now > deceased. > > Regards Steve Pinner > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi all, I contacted Find my past several times to confirm that I was indeed still alive but that my record was ‘’open’’.I requested that they closed it but have been ignored!!!! I have nothing to hide but if any long lost relatives look at it they will write me off as dead!!!Has anyone else had this experience ? How does this happen ? Brenda Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Pam Downes Sent: 13 May 2018 08:53 To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Re: 1939 England & Wales Register Hi Steve, Do you mean because the 100-year rule which applies to the release of the various censuses? If so, I expect the answer lies in the fact that the 1939 Register isn't a census. As a general rule, people who died before 1991 will have their records open. This is because until 1991 the Register was used in conjunction with the NHS and so as people died they were recorded as such. People's reference number in the 1939 Register was used on their identity cards, and when the NHS was formed that number also became their NHS number. http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm On Findmypast there is a facility for you to request a redacted file be opened by sending FMP a copy of the person's death certificate. Pam Proud to be a member of Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk On 13 May 2018 at 07:46, Margaret Siudek <msiudek@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > No sure about your first question.. > > Answer to second one is that if someone has died, or if they are aged 100 > plus, their name will be shown. But sometimes, Ancestry doesnt know about > a death, or of course, there may be mistakes. > > Margaret > ________________________________ > From: Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Sent: ‎13/‎05/‎2018 07:35 > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Cc: Stephen Pinner<mailto:stephenpinner@aol.com> > Subject: [LIN] 1939 England & Wales Register > > Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 > England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering > why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some > names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now > deceased. > > Regards Steve Pinner > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

To add to what Pam said, I sent Find My Past a scan of my father's death certificate, died 2005 and I was the informant, and the black line over his entry was removed within 24 hours. There has been some discussion about the Ancestry version of the index to the 1939 register on the GOONS rootsweb list. It seems that the Ancestry index is inferior to the one on FMP. Having said that, I have sent several corrections to FMP to their indexing. Anne Anne Cole, President, Lincolnshire Family History Society Duncalf(e)/Duncuff/Duncuft One-name Study GOONS member 513 http://www.one-name.org/profiles/duncalf.html http://duncalfonenamestudy.tribalpages.com/ Lincolnshire Post 1837 Marriage Index http://mi.lincolnshiremarriages.org.uk/ Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk -----Original Message----- From: Pam Downes [mailto:pamdee113@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2018 8:41 AM To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Re: 1939 England & Wales Register Hi Steve, Do you mean because the 100-year rule which applies to the release of the various censuses? If so, I expect the answer lies in the fact that the 1939 Register isn't a census. As a general rule, people who died before 1991 will have their records open. This is because until 1991 the Register was used in conjunction with the NHS and so as people died they were recorded as such. People's reference number in the 1939 Register was used on their identity cards, and when the NHS was formed that number also became their NHS number. http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm On Findmypast there is a facility for you to request a redacted file be opened by sending FMP a copy of the person's death certificate. Pam Proud to be a member of Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk On 13 May 2018 at 07:46, Margaret Siudek <msiudek@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > No sure about your first question.. > > Answer to second one is that if someone has died, or if they are aged 100 > plus, their name will be shown. But sometimes, Ancestry doesnt know about > a death, or of course, there may be mistakes. > > Margaret > ________________________________ > From: Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Sent: ‎13/‎05/‎2018 07:35 > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Cc: Stephen Pinner<mailto:stephenpinner@aol.com> > Subject: [LIN] 1939 England & Wales Register > > Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 > England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering > why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some > names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now > deceased. > > Regards Steve Pinner > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Steve As Pam has already said its not a census hence its not covered by the retrospective 100 year rule I would recommend listening to an informative podcast on the 1939 National Identity Register from Audrey Collins of the National Archives http://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/using-1939-register-recording-uk-population-war/ Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13-May-18 7:35 AM, Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN wrote: > Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now deceased. > > Regards Steve Pinner

Hi Steve, Do you mean because the 100-year rule which applies to the release of the various censuses? If so, I expect the answer lies in the fact that the 1939 Register isn't a census. As a general rule, people who died before 1991 will have their records open. This is because until 1991 the Register was used in conjunction with the NHS and so as people died they were recorded as such. People's reference number in the 1939 Register was used on their identity cards, and when the NHS was formed that number also became their NHS number. http://www.1911census.org.uk/1939.htm On Findmypast there is a facility for you to request a redacted file be opened by sending FMP a copy of the person's death certificate. Pam Proud to be a member of Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk On 13 May 2018 at 07:46, Margaret Siudek <msiudek@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > No sure about your first question.. > > Answer to second one is that if someone has died, or if they are aged 100 > plus, their name will be shown. But sometimes, Ancestry doesnt know about > a death, or of course, there may be mistakes. > > Margaret > ________________________________ > From: Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Sent: ‎13/‎05/‎2018 07:35 > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> > Cc: Stephen Pinner<mailto:stephenpinner@aol.com> > Subject: [LIN] 1939 England & Wales Register > > Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 > England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering > why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some > names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now > deceased. > > Regards Steve Pinner > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng- > lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ >

No sure about your first question.. Answer to second one is that if someone has died, or if they are aged 100 plus, their name will be shown. But sometimes, Ancestry doesnt know about a death, or of course, there may be mistakes. Margaret ________________________________ From: Stephen Pinner via ENG-LINCSGEN<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: ‎13/‎05/‎2018 07:35 To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com<mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com> Cc: Stephen Pinner<mailto:stephenpinner@aol.com> Subject: [LIN] 1939 England & Wales Register Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now deceased. Regards Steve Pinner _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi group. My query's not specifically Lincs related. I'm finding the "1939 England & Wales Register" on Ancestry an absolute boon but was wondering why it's online and the 100 years ruling doesn't seem to apply. Agreed some names are blacked out ie. my mother although her brother isn't - both now deceased. Regards Steve Pinner

If these three children were born in the workhouse they should have been registered. All births there were registered, after all the Guardians of the Union were responsible for registration, appointing registrars and assistant registrars, and paying the rent for the buildings used for registration. A register or births survives for Grimsby Union 1895-1903 but the records for Grimsby Union are at the North East Lincolnshire Archives, not at Lincoln. As has been said, there was no such thing as formal adoption at this time. The Guardians of the Union did however arrange "adoptions" but I have rarely seen these mentioned in the minutes of the Guardians' meetings. Anne Anne Cole, President, Lincolnshire Family History Society Duncalf(e)/Duncuff/Duncuft One-name Study GOONS member 513 http://www.one-name.org/profiles/duncalf.html http://duncalfonenamestudy.tribalpages.com/ Lincolnshire Post 1837 Marriage Index http://mi.lincolnshiremarriages.org.uk/ Lincolnshire Family History Society http://www.lincolnshirefhs.org.uk -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Siudek [mailto:msiudek@hotmail.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2018 3:02 PM To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Re: OLDROYD / LAMMING As far as I am aware, there should be no obvious reason which would lead different transcribers to add or miss the names, if they had started from the actual registers (i.e. as per Lincs to the Past). But the birthdate of all 3, given on the Lincs to the Past registers shows they were born in October (19th, 23rd and 8th), and say you say, with mothers who gave their address at the workhouse. So one can imagine that the mothers who were giving up their children for adoption- even if informal- wanted their children baptised before they parted with them. So then Betsy took Frank home- or back to the workhouse, but William and Elsie went to their new families who registered the births. Seems logical. Legal adoptions was informal, at this time, which is not helpful, but one would think the child would be registered somewhere, in one of the names. There are 3 Elsie May 's registered in Grimsby in the 4th quarter of 1900. Might be worth tracing them in the next 2 censuses- though of course, if she was adopted by someone other than your Oldroyds, they may have changed her first names. Good luck Margaret On 12/05/2018 14:14, L&CE Mackrill wrote: > Can anyone answer any of the following? > > On the 13 Nov 1900 in Saint James Grimsby, the following three > baptisms took place. > > William RUSSELL, mother Eliza Ann, no father named. > > Elsie May LOVE, mother Kate, no father named. > > Frank BALDWIN, mother Betsy, no father named. > > All three mother's abode is The Workhouse. > > All three baptism's are listed on FreeREG and Lincstothepast. > > Frank BALDWIN's birth is on FreeBMD, William RUSSELL and Elsie May > LOVE's are not. > > My thinking for this is Betsy BALDWIN kept her baby while Kate LOVE > and Eliza Ann RUSSELL gave theirs up for adoption? Would my thinking > be correct? Why would they not be on FreeBMD, apart from being missed > in transcription? > > My reasoning for this is I am looking for an Elsie May OLDROYD > (daughter) aged 5 months, born Grimbsy, Lincolnshire listed in the > 1901 census with her parents Fred and Florence. They are residing in > Cleethorpes in 1901. Fred and Florence born Yorkshire. > > There is no Elsie May OLDROYD birth listed in Grimbsy 1901/2 on > FreeDMD. (100% complete). Was Elsie May LOVE adopted by the OLDROYDS? > > In the 1891 census Fred and Florence (married in 1888) have no > children with them. In the 1901 census only Elsie May. > > I can't find Fred, Florence or Elsie May OLDROYD in the 1911 census. > > Fred and Florence sailed for America on 15 December 1911. Elsie May > was not listed on the manifest. > > Did Elsie May die (I can't find a death) before Fred and Florence > sailed or stay behind (I can't find a marriage) > > The reason I have been sidetracked by this is because I am looking for > the second wife of my great aunt's husband. She is not with him in the > 1911 census and he is listed as married. Her maiden name was Emma > JOHNSON, married Eli OLDROYD, married Joseph LAMMING. She is listed as > Elsie LAMMING in the 1901 census. > > On the shipping manifest name and address of nearest relative section, > Fred gives "mother Mrs OLDROYD, 191 Hamilton Street, Longsight, > Manchester". I wonder why it wasn't Mrs LAMMING? > > I have checked the address in the 1911 census but she is not there. > > Any comments on the questions I have raised are most welcome. > > Leonard > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb community --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

As far as I am aware, there should be no obvious reason which would lead different transcribers to add or miss the names, if they had started from the actual registers (i.e. as per Lincs to the Past).  But the birthdate of all 3, given on the Lincs to the Past registers shows they were born in October (19th, 23rd and 8th), and say you say, with mothers  who gave their address at the workhouse.  So one can imagine that the mothers who were giving up their children for adoption- even if informal-  wanted their children baptised before they parted with them. So then Betsy took Frank home- or back to the workhouse, but William and Elsie went to their new families who registered the births. Seems logical. Legal adoptions was  informal, at this time, which is not helpful, but one would think the child would be registered somewhere, in one of the names. There are 3 Elsie May 's registered in Grimsby in the 4th quarter of 1900. Might be worth tracing them in the next 2 censuses- though of course, if she was adopted by someone other than your  Oldroyds, they may have changed her first names. Good luck Margaret On 12/05/2018 14:14, L&CE Mackrill wrote: > Can anyone answer any of the following? > > On the 13 Nov 1900 in Saint James Grimsby, the following three > baptisms took place. > > William RUSSELL, mother Eliza Ann, no father named. > > Elsie May LOVE, mother Kate, no father named. > > Frank BALDWIN, mother Betsy, no father named. > > All three mother's abode is The Workhouse. > > All three baptism's are listed on FreeREG and Lincstothepast. > > Frank BALDWIN's birth is on FreeBMD, William RUSSELL and Elsie May > LOVE's are not. > > My thinking for this is Betsy BALDWIN kept her baby while Kate LOVE > and Eliza Ann RUSSELL gave theirs up for adoption? Would my thinking > be correct? Why would they not be on FreeBMD, apart from being missed > in transcription? > > My reasoning for this is I am looking for an Elsie May OLDROYD > (daughter) aged 5 months, born Grimbsy, Lincolnshire listed in the > 1901 census with her parents Fred and Florence. They are residing in > Cleethorpes in 1901. Fred and Florence born Yorkshire. > > There is no Elsie May OLDROYD birth listed in Grimbsy 1901/2 on > FreeDMD. (100% complete). Was Elsie May LOVE adopted by the OLDROYDS? > > In the 1891 census Fred and Florence (married in 1888) have no > children with them. In the 1901 census only Elsie May. > > I can't find Fred, Florence or Elsie May OLDROYD in the 1911 census. > > Fred and Florence sailed for America on 15 December 1911. Elsie May > was not listed on the manifest. > > Did Elsie May die (I can't find a death) before Fred and Florence > sailed or stay behind (I can't find a marriage) > > The reason I have been sidetracked by this is because I am looking for > the second wife of my great aunt's husband. She is not with him in the > 1911 census and he is listed as married. Her maiden name was Emma > JOHNSON, married Eli OLDROYD, married Joseph LAMMING. She is listed as > Elsie LAMMING in the 1901 census. > > On the shipping manifest name and address of nearest relative section, > Fred gives "mother Mrs OLDROYD, 191 Hamilton Street, Longsight, > Manchester". I wonder why it wasn't Mrs LAMMING? > > I have checked the address in the 1911 census but she is not there. > > Any comments on the questions I have raised are most welcome. > > Leonard > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY  Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb community --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com

Can anyone answer any of the following? On the 13 Nov 1900 in Saint James Grimsby, the following three baptisms took place. William RUSSELL, mother Eliza Ann, no father named. Elsie May LOVE, mother Kate, no father named. Frank BALDWIN, mother Betsy, no father named. All three mother's abode is The Workhouse. All three baptism's are listed on FreeREG and Lincstothepast. Frank BALDWIN's birth is on FreeBMD, William RUSSELL and Elsie May LOVE's are not. My thinking for this is Betsy BALDWIN kept her baby while Kate LOVE and Eliza Ann RUSSELL gave theirs up for adoption? Would my thinking be correct? Why would they not be on FreeBMD, apart from being missed in transcription? My reasoning for this is I am looking for an Elsie May OLDROYD (daughter) aged 5 months, born Grimbsy, Lincolnshire listed in the 1901 census with her parents Fred and Florence. They are residing in Cleethorpes in 1901. Fred and Florence born Yorkshire. There is no Elsie May OLDROYD birth listed in Grimbsy 1901/2 on FreeDMD. (100% complete). Was Elsie May LOVE adopted by the OLDROYDS? In the 1891 census Fred and Florence (married in 1888) have no children with them. In the 1901 census only Elsie May. I can't find Fred, Florence or Elsie May OLDROYD in the 1911 census. Fred and Florence sailed for America on 15 December 1911. Elsie May was not listed on the manifest. Did Elsie May die (I can't find a death) before Fred and Florence sailed or stay behind (I can't find a marriage) The reason I have been sidetracked by this is because I am looking for the second wife of my great aunt's husband. She is not with him in the 1911 census and he is listed as married. Her maiden name was Emma JOHNSON, married Eli OLDROYD, married Joseph LAMMING. She is listed as Elsie LAMMING in the 1901 census. On the shipping manifest name and address of nearest relative section, Fred gives "mother Mrs OLDROYD, 191 Hamilton Street, Longsight, Manchester". I wonder why it wasn't Mrs LAMMING? I have checked the address in the 1911 census but she is not there. Any comments on the questions I have raised are most welcome. Leonard

Good morning list Does anyone know where I can find out how many farms existed in Crowle in the 1860's best June Terrington

Hi Rosemary I’m connected to the Gall family through Mildred Dennis/Dinnis from Bardney. Mildred is my half 4xgreat aunt. Very interested to see that your family came to South Australia as wasn’t aware of that. So more Dennis descendants to chase up. Mildred’s father James Dinnis was married twice....I’m from the second family of James and Sarah Buckley. Their son James is my 3xgr grandfather.......and his son Henry (Moses) Dennis came to Victoria in 1857 with his wife Lydia and sons Henry & James. I can provide further information about the Dennis family if needed, please email me at judith.dennis@bigpond.com Kind regards Judy Dennis

Hello Doug, How wonderful! Catherine aka Kitty Gall (1801-1834) born in Bardney to Joeseoph Gall and Mildred Dinnis, is my greatx 4 aunt. She married George Willson on 12 May 1824 in Langton by Wragby, Lincolnshire. Accorrding to my records their eldest daughter Mary married Joseph Baxter in 1849, but I have no other information about her family. Although Mary was the oldest child, she was only nine years old when her mother Kitty died. Poor Kitty- she bore seven children in nine years then died shortly after the birth of their last child Thomas in 1834. George Wilson remarried a Jane Wattan in April 1835, but he died in 1846. Tough for all the surviving children. When did the family migrate to the USA? Regards, Rosie *Rosemary Gall* *Queensland * *Australia 4104* On Thu, 10 May 2018 at 06:14, Baxter, Douglas <baxter@ohio.edu> wrote: > I have been reading this exchange with interest. > I do have a Kitty GALL, my 2nd great grandmother, who were married in > 1824 near Wragby, Lincs. > > Their daughter Mary Wilson was born in Stainfield, Lincolns. Her > marriage record lists her father George as a farmer. She was married in > Hibaldstow > Doug > > > George Willson > mentioned in the record of George Willson and Kitty Gall > Name > George Willson > Spouse's Name > Kitty Gall > Event Date > 1824 > Event Place > Langton-By-Wragby, Lincoln, England > > Citing this Record > "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch ( > https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXWS-722 : 10 February 2018), > George Willson and Kitty Gall, 1824; citing Langton-By-Wragby, Lincoln, > England, reference 2:3LLCKZM, index based upon data collected by the > Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,450,480. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rosemary Gall <rosemary.gall@gmail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:20 PM > To: terry.wells@talktalk.net > Cc: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: [LIN] Re: Is anyone researching the GALL(Gaul, Galle etc) family? > > Hi Terry and Pamela, > > Thanks for the Genuki link Terry. Apologies for incorrect link to the > Waddingham church information. A typo on my part. It should of course have > ended /WaddingHAM, not WaddingTON. > Regards, > Rosie > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 9 May 2018, at 6:34 pm, Terry Wells <terry.wells@talktalk.net> wrote: > > > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/Waddingham > > > > Some church (and other) info here re WaddingHAM > > > > Terry (from WaddingTON) > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 9/5/18, Rosemary Gall <rosemary.gall@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Subject: [LIN] Is anyone researching the GALL(Gaul, Galle etc) family? > > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com > > Date: Wednesday, 9 May, 2018, 7:50 > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > As far as I can work out my Galls came originally for the north of > > Lincolnshire (Parts of Lindsay). > > > > Francis Gall (possibly born East Halton > > 1686 tbc) married Elisabeth Backhouse (Baccus) in St Maurice church, > > Horkstow in 1723/4. Died 1762 (a farmer) in Claxby by Market Rasen. > > > > Their son Charles born circa 1732, > > baptised in 1735 in Claxby by Market Rasen, married Eleanor Garniss in > > Great Coates in 1756, a blacksmith and parish clerk in Claxby when > > wife died in 1816. Charles died 1820. > > > > Charles and Eleanor had six > > children. Approx birth/ accurate baptism dates and places are Charles > > b.1757 in Great Coates, Francis b. 1759 Waddingham, Mary b. 1760 > > Waddingham, Joseph b.1764 Waddingham, Matthew b. 1766 > > Waddingham,Thomas b. 1769 b. > > 1769 Caenby. > > > > Question. Why are so many children > > christened in Waddingham and not Claxby by Market Rasen? I suppose > > it’s possible the family lived in Waddingham for those years. However > > Charles was born in Claxby, and buried in Claxby in 1820, age stated > > as 88. When his wife “Ellen” died in Claxby in 1816 her burial record > > noted she was “ wife of Charles Gall, Parish Clerk” > > When I looked for information about > > Waddingham St Peter and St Mary at this site > > stmaryandstpeter.webs.com/Waddington > > the author Brenda Coulson indicated > > that the church around this time may have been in ruins.. > > > > Joseph, an ag lab in the 1841 > > census, is my great x 4 grandfather. He married Mildred > > Dennis(Dinnis) in Bardney in 1799, died in 1848, burial record for > > Bardney says age 87 so open minded about birth year. I’m a descendant > > of their son Thomas, born > > 1803 Bardney, died 1893 in Hampstead. Thomas married Margaret Brack > > in 1830 in London. Margaret died in 1841, sadly before the 1851 census > > so I have no idea where she is from. There are lots of Brack families > > in Durham/ Northumberland, and Scotland, but nothing I can prove. > > Thomas remarried, a Lincolnshire woman, Ann Lister, born Kirton in > > Holland in about 1798. > > > > Thomas Gall was a male servant, then > > lodging house keeper in Windmill Hill, Hampstead for most of his life. > > Their eldest son William Watson Gall, my great x2 grandfather migrated > > to Adelaide South Australia, abt 1849, as did two of his three > > brothers in the 1850’s. > > > > My father, also Thomas Gall, is now in his 90’s. I am trying to put > > something together for him and would appreciate any suggestions the > > group might have regarding Galls in particular, but also associated > > families. > > > > Kind regards, > > Rosie > > > > > > > > > > > > Rosemary Gall > > Queensland, Australia > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@roots > > web.com/ > > > > Archives: > > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@roots > > web.com/ > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by > > Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

I have been reading this exchange with interest. I do have a Kitty GALL, my 2nd great grandmother, who were married in 1824 near Wragby, Lincs. Their daughter Mary Wilson was born in Stainfield, Lincolns. Her marriage record lists her father George as a farmer. She was married in Hibaldstow Doug George Willson mentioned in the record of George Willson and Kitty Gall Name George Willson Spouse's Name Kitty Gall Event Date 1824 Event Place Langton-By-Wragby, Lincoln, England Citing this Record "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXWS-722 : 10 February 2018), George Willson and Kitty Gall, 1824; citing Langton-By-Wragby, Lincoln, England, reference 2:3LLCKZM, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,450,480. -----Original Message----- From: Rosemary Gall <rosemary.gall@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 3:20 PM To: terry.wells@talktalk.net Cc: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Re: Is anyone researching the GALL(Gaul, Galle etc) family? Hi Terry and Pamela, Thanks for the Genuki link Terry. Apologies for incorrect link to the Waddingham church information. A typo on my part. It should of course have ended /WaddingHAM, not WaddingTON. Regards, Rosie Sent from my iPad > On 9 May 2018, at 6:34 pm, Terry Wells <terry.wells@talktalk.net> wrote: > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/Waddingham > > Some church (and other) info here re WaddingHAM > > Terry (from WaddingTON) > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 9/5/18, Rosemary Gall <rosemary.gall@gmail.com> wrote: > > Subject: [LIN] Is anyone researching the GALL(Gaul, Galle etc) family? > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com > Date: Wednesday, 9 May, 2018, 7:50 > > Hello everyone, > > As far as I can work out my Galls came originally for the north of > Lincolnshire (Parts of Lindsay). > > Francis Gall (possibly born East Halton > 1686 tbc) married Elisabeth Backhouse (Baccus) in St Maurice church, > Horkstow in 1723/4. Died 1762 (a farmer) in Claxby by Market Rasen. > > Their son Charles born circa 1732, > baptised in 1735 in Claxby by Market Rasen, married Eleanor Garniss in > Great Coates in 1756, a blacksmith and parish clerk in Claxby when > wife died in 1816. Charles died 1820. > > Charles and Eleanor had six > children. Approx birth/ accurate baptism dates and places are Charles > b.1757 in Great Coates, Francis b. 1759 Waddingham, Mary b. 1760 > Waddingham, Joseph b.1764 Waddingham, Matthew b. 1766 > Waddingham,Thomas b. 1769 b. > 1769 Caenby. > > Question. Why are so many children > christened in Waddingham and not Claxby by Market Rasen? I suppose > it’s possible the family lived in Waddingham for those years. However > Charles was born in Claxby, and buried in Claxby in 1820, age stated > as 88. When his wife “Ellen” died in Claxby in 1816 her burial record > noted she was “ wife of Charles Gall, Parish Clerk” > When I looked for information about > Waddingham St Peter and St Mary at this site > stmaryandstpeter.webs.com/Waddington > the author Brenda Coulson indicated > that the church around this time may have been in ruins.. > > Joseph, an ag lab in the 1841 > census, is my great x 4 grandfather. He married Mildred > Dennis(Dinnis) in Bardney in 1799, died in 1848, burial record for > Bardney says age 87 so open minded about birth year. I’m a descendant > of their son Thomas, born > 1803 Bardney, died 1893 in Hampstead. Thomas married Margaret Brack > in 1830 in London. Margaret died in 1841, sadly before the 1851 census > so I have no idea where she is from. There are lots of Brack families > in Durham/ Northumberland, and Scotland, but nothing I can prove. > Thomas remarried, a Lincolnshire woman, Ann Lister, born Kirton in > Holland in about 1798. > > Thomas Gall was a male servant, then > lodging house keeper in Windmill Hill, Hampstead for most of his life. > Their eldest son William Watson Gall, my great x2 grandfather migrated > to Adelaide South Australia, abt 1849, as did two of his three > brothers in the 1850’s. > > My father, also Thomas Gall, is now in his 90’s. I am trying to put > something together for him and would appreciate any suggestions the > group might have regarding Galls in particular, but also associated > families. > > Kind regards, > Rosie > > > > > > Rosemary Gall > Queensland, Australia > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@roots > web.com/ > > Archives: > https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@roots > web.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by > Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi Terry and Pamela, Thanks for the Genuki link Terry. Apologies for incorrect link to the Waddingham church information. A typo on my part. It should of course have ended /WaddingHAM, not WaddingTON. Regards, Rosie Sent from my iPad > On 9 May 2018, at 6:34 pm, Terry Wells <terry.wells@talktalk.net> wrote: > > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/Waddingham > > Some church (and other) info here re WaddingHAM > > Terry (from WaddingTON) > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 9/5/18, Rosemary Gall <rosemary.gall@gmail.com> wrote: > > Subject: [LIN] Is anyone researching the GALL(Gaul, Galle etc) family? > To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com > Date: Wednesday, 9 May, 2018, 7:50 > > Hello everyone, > > As far as I can work out my Galls came > originally for the north of Lincolnshire (Parts of > Lindsay). > > Francis Gall (possibly born East Halton > 1686 tbc) married Elisabeth Backhouse (Baccus) in St Maurice > church, Horkstow in 1723/4. Died 1762 (a farmer) in Claxby > by Market Rasen. > > Their son Charles born circa 1732, > baptised in 1735 in Claxby by Market Rasen, married Eleanor > Garniss in Great Coates in 1756, a blacksmith and parish > clerk in Claxby when wife died in 1816. Charles died 1820. > > Charles and Eleanor had six > children. Approx birth/ accurate baptism dates and places > are Charles b.1757 in Great Coates, Francis b. 1759 > Waddingham, Mary b. 1760 Waddingham, Joseph b.1764 > Waddingham, Matthew b. 1766 Waddingham,Thomas b. 1769 b. > 1769 Caenby. > > Question. Why are so many children > christened in Waddingham and not Claxby by Market > Rasen? I suppose it’s possible the family lived in > Waddingham for those years. However Charles was born in > Claxby, and buried in Claxby in 1820, age stated as 88. When > his wife “Ellen” died in Claxby in 1816 her burial > record noted she was “ wife of Charles Gall, Parish > Clerk” > When I looked for information about > Waddingham St Peter and St Mary at this site > stmaryandstpeter.webs.com/Waddington > the author Brenda Coulson indicated > that the church around this time may have been in ruins.. > > Joseph, an ag lab in the 1841 > census, is my great x 4 grandfather. He married > Mildred Dennis(Dinnis) in Bardney in 1799, died in 1848, > burial record for Bardney says age 87 so open minded about > birth year. I’m a descendant of their son Thomas, born > 1803 Bardney, died 1893 in Hampstead. Thomas married > Margaret Brack in 1830 in London. Margaret died in 1841, > sadly before the 1851 census so I have no idea where she is > from. There are lots of Brack families in Durham/ > Northumberland, and Scotland, but nothing I can prove. > Thomas remarried, a Lincolnshire woman, Ann Lister, born > Kirton in Holland in about 1798. > > Thomas Gall was a male servant, then > lodging house keeper in Windmill Hill, Hampstead for most of > his life. Their eldest son William Watson Gall, my great x2 > grandfather migrated to Adelaide South Australia, abt 1849, > as did two of his three brothers in the 1850’s. > > My father, also Thomas Gall, is now in > his 90’s. I am trying to put something together for him > and would appreciate any suggestions the group might have > regarding Galls in particular, but also associated > families. > > Kind regards, > Rosie > > > > > > Rosemary Gall > Queensland, Australia > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com/ > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by > Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community > >

I was born and grew up in Louth, and pronounced it to rhyme with south. There may have been a small population of farmers who used the old Lincolnshire dialect and pronounced it differently but it wasn't used by the majority of the populace. Joan van Daalen. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Wells via ENG-LINCSGEN [mailto:eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 9:04 AM To: jpfourdine17@btinternet.com; eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Cc: Terry Wells Subject: [LIN] Re: Louth The locals pronounce it something like Lowerth with the "low" sounding like the "lou" in aloud rather than the low which is opposite of high Terry -----Original Message----- From: J PEPPERDINE [mailto:jpfourdine17@btinternet.com] Sent: 09 May 2018 09:07 To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Louth I was born in Lincoln and thought I knew that Louth is pronounced to rhyme with South. Obviously Lowth is the kind of variant you would expect when the name became a surname. I know that Americans pronounce Ceylon as Saylon and Chile as Cheelay but I was a little surprised to hear an America speaking about Robert Lowth. (He was a bishop of Oxford who also wrote books about English grammar was born in Hampshire 1710 and is buried in London 1787). I was surprised to hear his name pronounced to rhyme with sloth. Surely I thought if this is how it is pronounced there would be surname variants Loth or Loath. Checking on Ancestry I find there are such variants, although Reaney makes no mention of them. This change in pronunciation must have happened away from Lincolnshire. But clearly some have returned to Lincolnshire. Or do some people in Lincolnshire pronounce the place name Louth differently? John Pepperdine _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/postorius/lists/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.co m/ Archives: https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/hyperkitty/list/eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.co m/ Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

The locals pronounce it something like Lowerth with the "low" sounding like the "lou" in aloud rather than the low which is opposite of high Terry -----Original Message----- From: J PEPPERDINE [mailto:jpfourdine17@btinternet.com] Sent: 09 May 2018 09:07 To: eng-lincsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: [LIN] Louth I was born in Lincoln and thought I knew that Louth is pronounced to rhyme with South. Obviously Lowth is the kind of variant you would expect when the name became a surname. I know that Americans pronounce Ceylon as Saylon and Chile as Cheelay but I was a little surprised to hear an America speaking about Robert Lowth. (He was a bishop of Oxford who also wrote books about English grammar was born in Hampshire 1710 and is buried in London 1787). I was surprised to hear his name pronounced to rhyme with sloth. Surely I thought if this is how it is pronounced there would be surname variants Loth or Loath. Checking on Ancestry I find there are such variants, although Reaney makes no mention of them. This change in pronunciation must have happened away from Lincolnshire. But clearly some have returned to Lincolnshire. Or do some people in Lincolnshire pronounce the place name Louth differently? John Pepperdine