Hi All, Due to the release of the 1861 census on ancestry I have discovered that my Edmund WARBURTON of Unsworth had a second wife with the same name as his first. First wife was Alice GREENWAY b 1831 Pilkington (married 1853 Prestwich St Mary). I think there are too many Alice Warburton deaths on freebmd to discern which one is mine. Edmunds second wife was Alice EMERSON b. abt 1836 Pilkington (I'd thought until now that Alice was just being a little untruthful about her age in the census). Here she is in 1861: Rowbarn. Pilkington H John EMERSON w 62 Farmer Pilkington D Alice EMERSON u 25 Cotton Weaver by hand Pilkington GS Richard WILD 6 Bury GS John WILD 4 Bury I think John is the John x 1799 at Unsworth St George son of Richard and Betty. What I'd really like to know (help please) was who was John EMERSONs wife as I have not found a baptism for Alice 1836. Regards, Laura V.

Hello Helen Try Spinning the Web History of Lancashire Cotton Spining Here is the entry for Waterhead Millbottom this is where Culvert st meets Huddersfield rd http://www.spinningtheweb.org.uk/bookbrowse.php?irn=3000920&sub=&theme=home&crumb=

Hi Everyone For many years I have been researching my Haigh family in Todmorden and Walsden. One branch went to Middleton. John Haigh born in 1772 had moved there before 1851 and was a coal proprietor. His son James born 1810 married and lived at Radcliffe Cottage, Rochdale Rd. in 1861. He was a partner in the Wild, Haigh coal masters of Middleton and Hopwood Colliery. His daughter Jane married James wild, son of Samuel Wild who would appear to be the partner of James. I have more information about these families and if anyone knows any more about the collieries and where they were situated, or is connected in any way, I would love to hear. Regards Dorothy

Hi Helen, Always an awkward one in this area! Greenacres was near the borders for Saddleworth, which came under Yorkshire. The children would have been down as born out of county - meaning Yorkshire. The marriage would have been at one of the larger churches nearby, Oldham St Marys, Saddleworth, or even Rochdale. Now I haven`t been to Manchester for a few weeks, but have some research to carry out there. If you haven`t got access to any of the above churches - I may be able to look at this for you. I could go down tomorrow or it may be Weds next. Doreen. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

Hello Helen Waterhead Mill was an area if you look on a modern map it covers Waterhead and Highmoor also towards the Village of Lees. All the Houses on Culvert have now gone but if you look on one of the Street Finders , Church st East Waterhead runs parallel with Culvert st. Springhill is now rebuilt and it is now Springhill court . Waterhead is on the boundry with The Wet Riding of Yorkshire Austerlands When you see the map the bottom of Huddersfield rd is Oldham Lancs the top is AusterlandsYorkshire Also known as Saddleworth. I will send you Photos of th area and a map with the boundry on this weekend. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=395268&y=406135&z=1&sv=Waterworks+road&st=6&tl=Waterworks+Road,+Oldham,+OL4&searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf http://www.saddleworth-historical-society.org.uk/ Try these web pages Vanessa and Dave

If anyone comes across the baptism of Isaac son of Edmund Chadwick in Middleton about 1834, I'd value details. (The 1861 census gives his place of birth as Middleton.) Thanks for trying, Edward

I am wondering if anyoneliving near Oldham, can tell me more (or point me to the right website) about Spring Hill, Waterhead, Oldham, as well as Waterhead Mill. Do either of these places still exist? Also, have you ever seen the street, "Culvert"? I looked at an Oldham real estate site in order to get a feel for some of the houses. Are there rowhouses on Culvert, too? If given as an address, were these mills where the employees lived? Or where a father on a birth-certificate might have given his place of employment? Also, do you you know the best website for an easy- to- see map of Odlham with Culvert, Spring Hill, etc, listed on them? And, finally, what was the nearest Yorkshire district to Oldham back in the 1820s-1840s? My James and Hannah's children were almost ALL not born in Lancashire, but they lived in Oldham, so they must have had nearby relatives to whom Hannah went when it came time to give birth? This is confusing. Helen Kay Gelinas Germany

Doreen, Thank you. I did this, and received excellent help. Do you know how I might go about locating the place and date of a marriage? I have James and Hannah Kay living at Top o' Meadows in in May, 1820, at the time of their son John's birth and baptism at Greenacres Cong. Chapel, Oldham. Subsequent seven children NOT born in Lancashire, although the family continues living in Oldham (Culvert) at least through 1840. James is listed as NOT born in Lancashire on the 1841 census; wife Hannah, WAS born in Lanc. They are between 40-44 yrs. old on the census, so born between 1897-1801. (Marriage 1815-1820) Do you have any clues as to how I might find their marriage record? Thanks in advance, Helen in Germany

Good morning Bert, Many thanks for your interest and assistance, it is appreciated. I do have a REGISTRATION OF BIRTH of my father, it reads: HARRY TAYLOR born 10th March 1925 Flyde - Blackpool Father - George Taylor Mother - Edna Bowker My grandmother was only 16/17 when Dad was born, George was much older than her, maybe 10 - 15 years older, I would say they were not married at this time, but did marry eventually and stayed together all their lives. Other children to this couple were Joan, Madge (died young), John and Peter. I do not have any addresses, but Mum said she used to write to Dad's parents in Layton, Blackpool. Dad's father, George, was in WW1 (Army), he was injured and went on a pension, I have tried to find Army records through National Archives/Library in UK, but impossible to follow links, I just get lost. Not much to go on is it ???? sorry. Regards Colleen (Australia) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herbert Pemberton" <pembie2@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: Taylor and Bowker in Blackpool > Hallo Colleen, > > When you have the Certificate(s) you have written for, I can check the > address(es) for you if you wish and the 1901 Census on fiche at Blackpool > Library if applicable. There are no electoral rolls for the 1920s and not > many directories, but I will check what they do have with pleasure. > > HTH, Bert Pemberton (MLFHS 11929). > >>From: "Colleen Wells" <colleenhasell@ozemail.com.au> >>Reply-To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com >>To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 >>Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:01:08 +1000 >> >>Good morning Doreen, >> >>Thank you for your email and time. >> >>I have searched the freeBDM and this is how I found the marriage record of >>George Taylor and Mary E Bowker, although my grandmother's name was Edna, >>maybe it was really Mary Edna ?? but this couple are my father's parents >>and if this is their marriage, it means they did not marry until Dad was >>15. Maybe George had not divorced his first wife. >> >>I have nothing to go on, as do not know George's parents or siblings, I >>know Edna Bowker had siblings, as he brothers indentured Dad in the >>carpentry business when he was 16. >> >>I will write to Blackpool Registery Office and if they have details >>purchase a certificate. >> >>Thank you again. >> >>Regards >>Colleen >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "doreen EL-AHWANY" >><doreen@elahwany.freeserve.co.uk> >>To: <ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:14 PM >>Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 >> >> >>>Hi Colleen, >>> >>>I think you really need to start off by buying the full birth certificate >>>for your father. This will confirm his parents names. >>>Alan has found a marriage for you in Oldham that could very well be the >>>second marriage of your grandfather in 1940 in Oldham, and you will also >>>need the first marriage record as your father was born in 1925. >>>The marriage certs will then give you the name of Georges father, and >>>with a bit of luck, you can then find Georges fathers family on the 1901 >>>census, to take you further back. >>>Taylor is quite a popular name in this area. >>>Have you checked the BMD sites online? There is freeBMD and 1837online, >>>and the LancsBMD that Alan mentioned. >>> >>>Best of luck, >>>Doreen. >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>>Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/47 - Release Date: 16/07/2005 >>> >>> >>>==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >>>>==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >>>To search the archives of this list go to: >>>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?surname=ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L-request@rootsweb.com >>> >> >> >> >>==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >>Check out the Middleton site for up-dates >>http://www.vmims.com/middleton.htm >> > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== > Please ensure the "subject" reflects the contents of your message > http://www.vmims.com/middleton.htm >

Hi Helen Also found a John KAY at 10B 547 24 + just to make it interesting another James and Hannah ...i've updated the word file and sent it on.. Cheers Alan -----Original Message----- From: Alan [mailto:alan@heyside.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 24 July 2005 16:09 To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 Helen / Janet James and Hannah are at 14A 546 31 front and back ... Word file with the image to your home e-mail Helen .... Alan -----Original Message----- From: Janet C [mailto:janetcee52@hotmail.com] Sent: 24 July 2005 13:26 To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 Hi Helen Just got back from overnight visit to mother-in-laws, and have seen Alan's listing of Kays. I'll try and look ar some of them this evening - but first have to get some garden chores done while the weather's fine! Catch you later Janet >From: Ghgel@aol.com >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:58:09 EDT > >Hello Janet- Did you see Alan's e-mail to me with all the numbers on it? I >assume these are the film/folio or page numbers for the 1841 census. > >Is this what you can use to do the look-ups? Let me know if there is more >that is needed. (I have no experience with this.) > >Can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. > >Regards, Helen _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== To search the archives of this list go to: http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?surname=ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON -L-request@rootsweb.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005 ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~emmaw/ for free Web Editor software. Web space. ANY amount. ANY subject. RootsWeb's Freepages put you in touch with millions. http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

Helen / Janet James and Hannah are at 14A 546 31 front and back ... Word file with the image to your home e-mail Helen .... Alan -----Original Message----- From: Janet C [mailto:janetcee52@hotmail.com] Sent: 24 July 2005 13:26 To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 Hi Helen Just got back from overnight visit to mother-in-laws, and have seen Alan's listing of Kays. I'll try and look ar some of them this evening - but first have to get some garden chores done while the weather's fine! Catch you later Janet >From: Ghgel@aol.com >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:58:09 EDT > >Hello Janet- Did you see Alan's e-mail to me with all the numbers on it? I >assume these are the film/folio or page numbers for the 1841 census. > >Is this what you can use to do the look-ups? Let me know if there is more >that is needed. (I have no experience with this.) > >Can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. > >Regards, Helen _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== To search the archives of this list go to: http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?surname=ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON -L-request@rootsweb.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

Hallo Colleen, When you have the Certificate(s) you have written for, I can check the address(es) for you if you wish and the 1901 Census on fiche at Blackpool Library if applicable. There are no electoral rolls for the 1920s and not many directories, but I will check what they do have with pleasure. HTH, Bert Pemberton (MLFHS 11929). >From: "Colleen Wells" <colleenhasell@ozemail.com.au> >Reply-To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com >To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 >Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 10:01:08 +1000 > >Good morning Doreen, > >Thank you for your email and time. > >I have searched the freeBDM and this is how I found the marriage record of >George Taylor and Mary E Bowker, although my grandmother's name was Edna, >maybe it was really Mary Edna ?? but this couple are my father's parents >and if this is their marriage, it means they did not marry until Dad was >15. Maybe George had not divorced his first wife. > >I have nothing to go on, as do not know George's parents or siblings, I >know Edna Bowker had siblings, as he brothers indentured Dad in the >carpentry business when he was 16. > >I will write to Blackpool Registery Office and if they have details >purchase a certificate. > >Thank you again. > >Regards >Colleen > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "doreen EL-AHWANY" ><doreen@elahwany.freeserve.co.uk> >To: <ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:14 PM >Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 > > >>Hi Colleen, >> >>I think you really need to start off by buying the full birth certificate >>for your father. This will confirm his parents names. >>Alan has found a marriage for you in Oldham that could very well be the >>second marriage of your grandfather in 1940 in Oldham, and you will also >>need the first marriage record as your father was born in 1925. >>The marriage certs will then give you the name of Georges father, and with >>a bit of luck, you can then find Georges fathers family on the 1901 >>census, to take you further back. >>Taylor is quite a popular name in this area. >>Have you checked the BMD sites online? There is freeBMD and 1837online, >>and the LancsBMD that Alan mentioned. >> >>Best of luck, >>Doreen. >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/47 - Release Date: 16/07/2005 >> >> >>==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >>>==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >>To search the archives of this list go to: >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?surname=ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L-request@rootsweb.com >> > > > >==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >Check out the Middleton site for up-dates >http://www.vmims.com/middleton.htm >

Hi Helen Just got back from overnight visit to mother-in-laws, and have seen Alan's listing of Kays. I'll try and look ar some of them this evening - but first have to get some garden chores done while the weather's fine! Catch you later Janet >From: Ghgel@aol.com >Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:58:09 EDT > >Hello Janet- Did you see Alan's e-mail to me with all the numbers on it? I >assume these are the film/folio or page numbers for the 1841 census. > >Is this what you can use to do the look-ups? Let me know if there is more >that is needed. (I have no experience with this.) > >Can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. > >Regards, Helen _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters

Thank you, Alan-but for the life of me, I cannot find a John Kay on the image...Any advice? I see that there is, indeed, another James and Hannah, but I do know that "my" James and Hannah's second child was "Alice", also christened at Greenacres Independent-so I think the first set must be right. Sorry to ask so many questions, but would like to know how to see "John" on the second photo. Many thanks, Helen Helen Kay Gelinas Germany

In a message dated 21/07/2005 16:19:33 GMT Daylight Time, doreen@elahwany.freeserve.co.uk writes: Have found two baptisms for a Betty in the registers 1806-07. St Leonards. Middleton. 8 Jan 1806. Betty d/o John Howarth, weaver, and Betty his w. of Middleton. 26 April 1807. Betty d/o James Howarth, cotton spinner, and Ann his w. of Middleton. Hello Doreen, Many thanks for going to the trouble of looking up this birth for me. I am assuming that John and James are related, either brothers or cousins. Obviously I am going to have to make more investigations ! Kind Regards Helen

Helen I called in on my way home on Friday dinner ... I only noted the OLDHAM KAY's ...there are another dozen or so in outlying districts. OLDHAM 1A 546 14 , 17 3A 18 9A1 24 9A2 7 10A 4 12A 20 13A 4 14A 12, 31 1B 547 6, 12 3B 12 4B 16 7B 7, 14, 20 8B 39 10B 24 11B 6 15B 47 16B 8 17B 36 18B 20 20B 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 21B 12, 23 22B 38, 43 cheers Alan -----Original Message----- From: Ghgel@aol.com [mailto:Ghgel@aol.com] Sent: 22 July 2005 08:49 To: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] Re: ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-D Digest V05 #118 Hi Janet- I just this minute finished writing and sending my request to Oldham LS. Thank you very much for your offer. I will let you know as soon as I hear from them. Have a good day, Helen ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== >==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== To search the archives of this list go to: http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?surname=ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON -L-request@rootsweb.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 22/07/2005

Hello Janet- Did you see Alan's e-mail to me with all the numbers on it? I assume these are the film/folio or page numbers for the 1841 census. Is this what you can use to do the look-ups? Let me know if there is more that is needed. (I have no experience with this.) Can't tell you how much I appreciate your offer of help. Regards, Helen Helen Kay Gelinas Stoeffelbergweg 7 72124 Pliezhausen Germany

Thank you, Alan!! I'm afraid I am such a novice at this, that I do not know exactly what those numbers mean, but assume they are the film/folio numbers for the 1841 Census. I really appreciate your going to the trouble!! Many thanks again, Helen Helen Kay Gelinas Stoeffelbergweg 7 72124 Pliezhausen Germany

Hi Sarah, Sorry, I haven`t any info on the ages of the parents of either of the Betty Howarths/Haworths. Doreen. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/47 - Release Date: 16/07/2005

Hi Rita, Helen, Unfortunately, the Oldham census surname indexes are only held at Oldham LS. There are no copies elsewhere. This is by agreement with the indexers. (An exception is the 51 index which is available in various fomats). Doreen (ex-committee member of mlfhs Oldham branch). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/47 - Release Date: 16/07/2005