Hi Doreen Well I did go round to look at the buildings next to the Railway, although I did go in the car because of the rain. Anyway the building that is being demolished is not such an old building the outside facia bricks are good quality Accrington Brick and the interior is Breeze Block (not sure about the spelling of that, but I am sure you will know what I mean), My first impression was that it could have been public toilets at sometime, my reason for thinking this is that there are two buildings obviously built at the same time but they have doors at opposite sides to each other, there used to be lots of buildings like this all over the country. So it is looks like if you are right the original houses were demolished a long time ago. I was wondering what happens to the deeds of property when the Council places a compulsary purchase order on them and then demolishes the property. Do you think that they just submit them to the Land Registry Office, if so they will be lost forever. I have a friend that bought a house on Rochdale Road that was very old indeed and we had a good look at the Deeds and they were very large but written in Old English, at the time he had to register his purchase and submit the deeds to the L.R. so we put off getting it transcribed until later, but when they came back all he got was a computer generated A4 sheet acknowledging his ownership of the land and property. He tried to get a copy of the original but was told that the old deeds were being replaced by these more modern versions, it seems very sad if this is the case. It looks as if Geoff Wellens photographs still might hold the answers, although I am fairly certain that what ever the answer is the actual building that we set off looking for is no longer there and as you know Doreen before long they could have rebuilt the whole of that area. Mind you Rochdale Council Compulsary purchased both of my grandparents shops in Rochdale itself the year before I was born and 60 years later the land was finally built on. Well back to the Lemsip I have to back back on form to do the school run on Monday. Ivy Middleton Manchester

Hi all Originally most of Townley Street was in Tonge and would naturally have been numbered from the south end. Tonge became part of the Borough of Middleton in 1886 but retained its own identity as a separate civil parish until 1894, when it was amalgamated totally with Middleton. I would imagine the renumbering took place soon after that and of course would now be outward from the centre of Middleton, i.e from the north end. It was quite common for streets to be renumbered in this way when they passed into the control of different local authorities. David in Hertford, England ----- Original Message ----- From: "doreen EL-AHWANY" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] 9 Townley Street > Hi Ivy and Allan, > > Just a bit more on Townley Street. I am now almost certain that the numbers > were changed before 1901, with the odd numbers being on the side where there > were once even numbers. > > From the 1881 census: Shows numbers 3 and 5 Townley Street; then Sharp > Street; then 9 - 25 Townley Street; then Bridge Street. (All on the opposite > side of the Street to where numbers 1-9 now are; and also at the other > end!). > > From the 1891 census: Description gives "..... Commencing at the corner of > Oldham Rd and Townley St at the Railway Hotel, thence along the (L) hand > side of Townley St to number 41....". > Pages show the Railway Inn (on Townley St), then numbers 3, 7, 9, 11, etc to > 41. > > The 1901 census gives only numbers 1 - 7 (near Lodge St at the other end). > To make this clearer, I think a map would be useful! > > Also in the 1891 census, the Farewell Inn is given as number 25 Townley St, > but the Middleton Pub book gives the address as numbers 30 and 32. > > So in 1881, number 9 Townley Street would have been the first building > after Sharp Street. There is still a building there, but I don`t offhand > know the yr that it was built. Perhaps the present owner will have a few > details? > > Happy New Year to all. > > Doreen.

Hi Doreen, Well that really does make sense, because one would expect that the numbering would have started at the most important end and of course Oldham Road would have been considered a very important road in those days the same as Rochdale Road. But if you are correct I think we may well be a bit late to see the building that is there now, it is surrounded by scaffolding and the upper floor or roof has gone. I will go and look at it in the daylight, at the moment I have a stinking cold so a little walk will do me good if it is fine tomorrow. My baby son (age 30) still lives with me and he works shifts, when he comes home at 10.30pm he dashes in and changes out of his uniform and then I run him to the Railway for a quick pint and I turn round to come home again right across the road from that building, which is why I know they are pulling it down at the moment, so I had better hurry up and see what a bit of daylight reveals. I have a copy of the pub book but for the life of me I can't find it, I will have put it in one of those safe places, you know the ones you forget about when you need them. I wish you and all of the list a Happy New Year and now I will get a Lemsip and bed. Ivy Middleton Manchester

Hi Ivy and Allan, Just a bit more on Townley Street. I am now almost certain that the numbers were changed before 1901, with the odd numbers being on the side where there were once even numbers. From the 1881 census: Shows numbers 3 and 5 Townley Street; then Sharp Street; then 9 - 25 Townley Street; then Bridge Street. (All on the opposite side of the Street to where numbers 1-9 now are; and also at the other end!). From the 1891 census: Description gives "..... Commencing at the corner of Oldham Rd and Townley St at the Railway Hotel, thence along the (L) hand side of Townley St to number 41....". Pages show the Railway Inn (on Townley St), then numbers 3, 7, 9, 11, etc to 41. The 1901 census gives only numbers 1 - 7 (near Lodge St at the other end). To make this clearer, I think a map would be useful! Also in the 1891 census, the Farewell Inn is given as number 25 Townley St, but the Middleton Pub book gives the address as numbers 30 and 32. So in 1881, number 9 Townley Street would have been the first building after Sharp Street. There is still a building there, but I don`t offhand know the yr that it was built. Perhaps the present owner will have a few details? Happy New Year to all. Doreen. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003

Hello: My Moorhouse line is mainly from WYks but I have come to a dead end. Somewhere I read that my line perhaps had its origins in Lancashire. If that be the case then maybe someone on this list would recognize the name THOMAS MOORHOUSE. Thomas was born ca 1698 and was a searge weaver by trade. In WYks he was married twice. First in 1723 to Sarah WRIGHT and then in 1727 to Agnes MIDGLEY. He had 6 children that I know of- John, Jane, George, Mary, John and Anne. If any of this sounds familiar at all to anyone I would be delighted to hearf rom you. Regards Bruce Moorhouse [email protected]

Hi Doreen Thanks for that I will try to make it this week. I find the biggest problem with being retired everyone else in the family seems to find me something to do, like moving children from A to B, a bit of ironing etc. I think I will have to tell everyone I am already booked and find some time for me. Ivy Middleton Manchester

Hi All, 1861 census Middleton, RG9/3027 folio 74 Dwelling; Chapel St, Middleton. Butchers shop. Nathaniel Ashworth Head Marr. 38, Butcher Rossendale Hebe Ashworth wife marr. 39, Ashton under Lyne Sarah Ann Ashworth dau. un. 15, Ashton under Lyne Alfred Ashworth son un. 13, scholar Ashton under Lyne Edward Ashworth son un. 11, scholar Ashton under Lyne Selina Ashworth dau. un. 8, scholar Ashton under Lyne Betty Colloney serv. wid. 56, servant Ireland. This is possibly family of a Sarah Ann ASHWORTH who married George OGDEN wdr at Oldham in October 1862 It could be either her own family or that of her brother. There appears to be several Sarah Ashworth's, so I am still hunting for an exact match to the marriage details. The groom is George Ogden (signed) 27, widower, Grocer, Rhodes Middleton. Father - Thomas Ogden, silk weaver. If anyone is researching these lines and/or Ashworth`s from Rossendale I would love to hear from them. With Best Wishes for the New Year to everyone. Regards Sylvia.

Hello, Can anyone help.I have tried a few times over the years to find anyone who can help with any information about the Greenough family who lived at 693 Manchester Old Rd in 1918.I know that they previously lived in Bowlee Village. George Greenough was married to a Mary Ann McKay or McCabe.(It is shown spelt both ways on different documents!!) Thanks Shaun Greenough

Would anyone please have a copy or know where I could get one of epitaphs on gravestones or monuments in the St Peter's Churchyard in Oldham. I am interested in James BINNS who was buried in Nov 5, 1846. Thank you Elizabeth

Hello Shaun, Have you tried a different spelling perhaps? There are members of my family (the Kay family) from the Middleton area, also from Bowlee, named "Greenhalgh". It is a name I have seen there even today on shops, drugstores, etc. Sometimes a different spelling holds the key. Best wishes, Helen

Hello, Try Oldham Local Studies Section at www.oldham.gov.uk They have a Transcription of Oldham St Peters from around 1900, so if it is not in that then no headstone would be present or have disappeared by that time. Best wishes. Malcolm Firth In Chadderton Research FIRTH, BARKER, FARRAR, LUMB, JAGGER in Calderdale and Oldham HALSALL, PENDLETON, EAUD, and WELSBY Prescot and SW Lancs HARRISON, BARKER, YARDLEY, DUCKWORTH and HOWARD in Oldham BUTTON, RICHMOND and MUDD in Pateley Bridge and Ripon E Mail [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "warren kelly" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 11:59 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] MONUMENTS > Would anyone please have a copy or know where I could get one of epitaphs on gravestones or monuments in the St Peter's Churchyard in Oldham. I am interested in James BINNS who was buried in Nov 5, 1846. > Thank you > Elizabeth > > > ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~emmaw/ for free Web Editor software. > Web space. ANY amount. ANY subject. > RootsWeb's Freepages put you in touch with millions. > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi >

Ivy, If you do manage to get to the library - take a look at the 1889 maps (the one for Townley Street is in 2 parts). This clearly shows the buildings marked out - although no numbers are shown. There could possibly have been five original buildings at the beginning of the street, though the second of these is very tiny and could be misleading. Doreen. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/2003

Hi Vernon That is very interesting, because I have been and looked again at the buildings at the begining of Townley Street and the shops you mention are still there No's 1,3,5,7. Brookside Mill which was ours comes next, but after looking again I remembered that the door that is now numbered 9, was not there at the turn of the century it was at the side of the building and was probably not considered at the time to be on Townley Street. I know on the deeds to the building it was just called Brookside Mill Middleton. So I had another look at the next mill and that is the same, whilst there are one or two busineses in that building now they would not have been doors to the premises when they were built. The fact that there used to be some cottages on either side of Spring Vale would explain everything, if you take out the two mills Number 9 would probably have been along side the River Irk and across the road from what is now The Full Monty as you suggest. I have been waiting for a reply from a friend of mine that is a local historian but of course there has been Christmas and as he is also an undertaker he is extremely busy at this time of year, but I do know he has some very old photographs of Townley Street. Thank you for you input, I do find it very interesting trying to unravel these types of mystery and at the moment your offering is looking the most likely, because somewhere in the back of my mind I have a feeling that the rule of thumb is wherever the front door of a building is that is considered to be the street address and if that is the case in 1891 Number 9 could well have been considered to be the next front door on the street, and if as you say there were some cottages knocked down further up, from my second look further up on that side of Townley Street there is no property apart from St Michaels Church on the other side of Oldham Road that would have been built before 1900. Thank you for your reply I will post any answers that I get that prove it one way or the other, I may even find something in the library, I didn't have much time before Christmas to go and search. Ivy Middleton Manchester

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivy Murphy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] 9 Townley Street Hello Ivy I'm just getting round to reading my e-mail from a few weeks ago and notice that you have an interest in 9 Townley Street. I was born in 1942 at 17 Townley Street, the shop on the corner of Spring Vale opposite Yates chip shop and is now 'The Full Monty'. The shopkeeper, Mrs Tregellas was my grandmother. From what I remember of the street, there was a very small public garden across Spring Vale and I believe that there had been houses on this land in the early 1900's. These houses were between Spring Vale and the river Irk and would be opposite the 'electricity works'. As number 9 was probably only 4 doors from number 17 it is possible that it was amongst this small group of houses. On the other side of the Irk was at least one mill, which I believe is still standing and further towards Lodge Street was a group of 3 or 4 shops, which were at some time a newsagents and Alan Taylors motor bike shop. I don't suppose that this helps much but it may just jog someone's memory. Vernon Parry

Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year and thanks to all who have helped in our quest to break down brick walls. Kind Regards, Alex & Jan Sydney Aus

To everyone on the best list going around, i wish you all a happy and safe Christmas and an extra special New year. God Bless, Norm. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.553 / Virus Database: 345 - Release Date: 18/12/03

Merry Christmas and a Happy and Safe 2004 to all list members. Ann Australia

Thank you Emma, words well spoken for all of us. So much help is given from this small list, and I would like to join you in wishing everyone a very merry Christmas and a Happy 2004! angela cyprus - daughter of a clayton from Middleton ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "emma" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON-L] From the Listowner > Firstly I wish to thank the you all for making it possible for all the > listers to make contact with each other. Also to be able to share our > knowledge and to receive help when it is needed. > > To you all I wish you a Merry Christmas.and a Happy New Year for 2004. > > > > Joan White > > > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-MIDDLETON Mailing List ==== > Check out the Middleton site for up-dates http://www.vmims.com/middleton.htm >

Hi Sylvia! Your documentation is impressive! I aspire to that one day. Have a happy holiday. Sarah

Firstly I wish to thank the you all for making it possible for all the listers to make contact with each other. Also to be able to share our knowledge and to receive help when it is needed. To you all I wish you a Merry Christmas.and a Happy New Year for 2004. Joan White