HI Jenny, This is a tougher question. I'd already seen the George Brindle = Mary Butterworth marriage, the Mary born to Abraham and Alice and the Abraham = Alice Kay, which all seems like a likely line, especially given the mother-in-law = Alice in the 1851 census, thank you. There don't seem to be any other children to Abraham and Alice that I can find in IGI, so that doesn't make the Hulme connection. Now the other links you suggest are all new information;- William Kay = Elizabeth Butterworth. I don't think Mary had a sister, if that's what you're suggesting? The Church connection is interesting as I do have ancestors from their but in a different line. Elizabeth Kay's birth is consistently Manchester in all the documents I have, so his probably isn't a link. The two Thompson = Butterworth marriages are Manchester, but again there's no evidence that the Elizabeth was related to Abraham, Alice and Mary, especially given that all their IGI entries are Bolton. Thanks for the ideas, the link between James Hulme and the Brindle / Butterworth's is driving me MAD! Cheers, Pete -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Walker [mailto:jenniferwalker@ntlworld.com] Sent: 01 June 2006 23:51 To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES BRINDLE 1851 CENSUS Looking at the census information given, and the marriage of George Brindle and Mary Butterworth. (Witness Thomas Thompson). What do you think of the following? There is a Mary Butterworth c 08 Jan 1817 St Peters Bolton le Moors (Abraham & Alice) Abraham Butterworth m Alice Kay 15 Apr 1816 St Peters Bolton. William Kay m Elizabeth Butterworth 03 Jan 1835 Church, Lancashire (Chapelry of Church) Thomas Thompson m Elizabeth Butterworth 1828 (IGI Pedigree resource file for Thomas Thompson c 06 Mar 1808 Manchester) Thomas Thompson m Elizabeth Butterworth 12 Feb 1828 Manchester Cathedral. Unable to find the connection with Hulme though. Jenny