HI Anne, I hadn't spotted the James Brindle in 1836, I wonder where he was in 1851 and why they named him James if they already had James Hulme living with them in 1841? I'm going to dig some more around the Butterworths, as far as I know, Mary was their only child but I'm a little concerned about the age change of Alice between 1841 and 1851, I'll see what I can find. I had seen the Elizabeth as married in 1861 and I was interested as the mother's name on Thomas (their son's) birth certificate says "formerly Kay" not "nee Kay". However their marriage certificate lists her as spinster. I did notice that the marriage was "by licence" not banns, so I will try to figure out how to get a copy of the licence to see if that helps. As to the Thomas connection, I don't know who Elizabeth's father was. Even if Kay was her birth name, there are several Elizabeth Kay births in Manchester that it could be. I did look at the Thomas Hulme possibility and there are three Anne's, born of Thomas that could be the mother of 1830 James, again I'll look at it in more detail. Cheers, Pete -----Original Message----- From: pneanne [mailto:pne.anne@ntlworld.com] Sent: 30 May 2006 11:20 To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME Hi Pete, Just a couple of things I have noticed. On the 1861 Census in Gaskell Street, George and Mary Brindle have a son James aged 19, but he is not shown with the family in Cross Street in 1851. Also, George's wife Mary Brindle (nee Butterworth) was born in Halliwell, so there is a Halliwell connection between her and the visitor James Hulme, who is living with them in 1841 and 1851. On the 1861 Census in Barn Street, where James Hulme is lodging with his wife to be, Elizabeth Kay, it shows Elizabeth as married. They named their son Thomas. Do you know if Thomas is the name of Elizabeth's father. If not, he could be the name of James Hulme's grandfather. Perhaps it would be an idea to go a generation back and find a Thomas Hulme whose daughter was the mother of James Hulme. I hope this makes sense. As you say, it is getting very complicated. Anne in Bolton. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Hulme" <phulme@glasshouse.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME > Hi Anne, > > The more we look at this, the more complex it becomes! Lets look at the > evidence so far;- > > 1. > I think there is a strong chance that the James Hulme, living with the > Brindles in 1841 and 1851 is 'my' James, partly because we find 'my' James > and his family living ~ next door to the Brindles again in 1871 > 2. > Based on your study of the Bolton Baptisms, the only likely James birth is > the christening of the child of Ann Hulme in Jan 1830. There is no other > likely James born in Bolton anywhen in the 1830s > 3. > There is the interesting 'coincidence' of the Thomas Hulme (born Chorley) > and his wife living two doors from the Brindles when James is with them > 4. > Assuming for a moment that the James at the Brindles is the right one and > he's the son of Ann Hulme, that doesn't mean he's the son of the Dawson > Lane Ann, though he could be. > 5. > Looking at Thomas Hulme, there's a baptism in Chorley on 1st October 1815 > that could be him, parents are William and Catherine Holme. > 6. > William and Catherine seem to have a daughter, Mary Ann Holmes baptised > Chorley 12 Dec 1813 and then have two other children Henry and James > baptised at St. Peter's, Bolton on 24 October 1819 (both on the same day) > 7. > BMD shows the death of an Ann Hulme in Bolton in the December quarter of > 1840 > > Now lots of bits of supposition and loose thoughts that aren't grounded > yet;- > > * Maybe James at the Brindles is the illegitimate son of Mary Ann, sister > of their neighbour, Thomas? > * Maybe there is a Ann Hulme who died in 1840 and her son is with the > Brindles? > * Maybe both of the above are the same person? > > At the end of the day, I'm reluctant to give up on the Brindle's James > Hulme yet, but I'd be a LOT happier if I could link an Ann Hulme to them > somehow. I'll keep kicking over the trail and see what I can find, at some > level there MUST be an explanation as to why there is a James Hulme living > with the Brindles in 1841 and 1851, whether or not it's 'my' James > > Cheers, Pete Hulme > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton > and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.3/350 - Release Date: 28/05/2006 > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Hi Pete, I have gone through the 1851 Census Index looking at all the James Brindles born about 1840 in Bolton and I couldn't see any who were not the 'son' of the household. I spotted a James Bindle (that is how it was transcribed). When I looked at the census he was James Brindle, 11 Scholar at Manchester Collegiate Cathedral, born Bolton. I wonder if this is the son of George Brindle and Mary, who is not at home on the 1851 Census? Anne in Bolton. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Hulme" <phulme@glasshouse.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME > HI Anne, I hadn't spotted the James Brindle in 1836, I wonder where he > was in 1851 and why they named him James if they already had James Hulme > living with them in 1841? > > I'm going to dig some more around the Butterworths, as far as I know, > Mary was their only child but I'm a little concerned about the age > change of Alice between 1841 and 1851, I'll see what I can find. > > I had seen the Elizabeth as married in 1861 and I was interested as the > mother's name on Thomas (their son's) birth certificate says "formerly > Kay" not "nee Kay". However their marriage certificate lists her as > spinster. I did notice that the marriage was "by licence" not banns, so > I will try to figure out how to get a copy of the licence to see if > that helps. > > As to the Thomas connection, I don't know who Elizabeth's father was. > Even if Kay was her birth name, there are several Elizabeth Kay births > in Manchester that it could be. I did look at the Thomas Hulme > possibility and there are three Anne's, born of Thomas that could be the > mother of 1830 James, again I'll look at it in more detail. > > Cheers, Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: pneanne [mailto:pne.anne@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 30 May 2006 11:20 > To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME > > Hi Pete, > > Just a couple of things I have noticed. On the 1861 Census in Gaskell > Street, George and Mary Brindle have a son James aged 19, but he is not > shown with the family in Cross Street in 1851. > > Also, George's wife Mary Brindle (nee Butterworth) was born in > Halliwell, so > there is a Halliwell connection between her and the visitor James Hulme, > who > is living with them in 1841 and 1851. > > On the 1861 Census in Barn Street, where James Hulme is lodging with his > > wife to be, Elizabeth Kay, it shows Elizabeth as married. They named > their > son Thomas. Do you know if Thomas is the name of Elizabeth's father. > If > not, he could be the name of James Hulme's grandfather. Perhaps it > would be > an idea to go a generation back and find a Thomas Hulme whose daughter > was > the mother of James Hulme. > > I hope this makes sense. As you say, it is getting very complicated. > > Anne in Bolton. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Hulme" <phulme@glasshouse.com> > To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:10 PM > Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME > > >> Hi Anne, >> >> The more we look at this, the more complex it becomes! Lets look at > the >> evidence so far;- >> >> 1. >> I think there is a strong chance that the James Hulme, living with the > >> Brindles in 1841 and 1851 is 'my' James, partly because we find 'my' > James >> and his family living ~ next door to the Brindles again in 1871 >> 2. >> Based on your study of the Bolton Baptisms, the only likely James > birth is >> the christening of the child of Ann Hulme in Jan 1830. There is no > other >> likely James born in Bolton anywhen in the 1830s >> 3. >> There is the interesting 'coincidence' of the Thomas Hulme (born > Chorley) >> and his wife living two doors from the Brindles when James is with > them >> 4. >> Assuming for a moment that the James at the Brindles is the right one > and >> he's the son of Ann Hulme, that doesn't mean he's the son of the > Dawson >> Lane Ann, though he could be. >> 5. >> Looking at Thomas Hulme, there's a baptism in Chorley on 1st October > 1815 >> that could be him, parents are William and Catherine Holme. >> 6. >> William and Catherine seem to have a daughter, Mary Ann Holmes > baptised >> Chorley 12 Dec 1813 and then have two other children Henry and James >> baptised at St. Peter's, Bolton on 24 October 1819 (both on the same > day) >> 7. >> BMD shows the death of an Ann Hulme in Bolton in the December quarter > of >> 1840 >> >> Now lots of bits of supposition and loose thoughts that aren't > grounded >> yet;- >> >> * Maybe James at the Brindles is the illegitimate son of Mary Ann, > sister >> of their neighbour, Thomas? >> * Maybe there is a Ann Hulme who died in 1840 and her son is with the >> Brindles? >> * Maybe both of the above are the same person? >> >> At the end of the day, I'm reluctant to give up on the Brindle's James > >> Hulme yet, but I'd be a LOT happier if I could link an Ann Hulme to > them >> somehow. I'll keep kicking over the trail and see what I can find, at > some >> level there MUST be an explanation as to why there is a James Hulme > living >> with the Brindles in 1841 and 1851, whether or not it's 'my' James >> >> Cheers, Pete Hulme >> >> >> >> >> >> ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >> For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, > Westhoughton >> and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. >> >> ============================== >> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.3/350 - Release Date: > 28/05/2006 >> > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, > Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton > and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 29/05/2006 > >

Looking at the census information given, and the marriage of George Brindle and Mary Butterworth. (Witness Thomas Thompson). What do you think of the following? There is a Mary Butterworth c 08 Jan 1817 St Peters Bolton le Moors (Abraham & Alice) Abraham Butterworth m Alice Kay 15 Apr 1816 St Peters Bolton. William Kay m Elizabeth Butterworth 03 Jan 1835 Church, Lancashire (Chapelry of Church) Thomas Thompson m Elizabeth Butterworth 1828 (IGI Pedigree resource file for Thomas Thompson c 06 Mar 1808 Manchester) Thomas Thompson m Elizabeth Butterworth 12 Feb 1828 Manchester Cathedral. Unable to find the connection with Hulme though. Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "pneanne" <pne.anne@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES BRINDLE 1851 CENSUS > Hi Pete, > > I have gone through the 1851 Census Index looking at all the James > Brindles born about 1840 in Bolton and I couldn't see any who were not the > 'son' of the household. > > I spotted a James Bindle (that is how it was transcribed). When I looked > at the census he was James Brindle, 11 Scholar at Manchester Collegiate > Cathedral, born Bolton. I wonder if this is the son of George Brindle and > Mary, who is not at home on the 1851 Census? > > Anne in Bolton. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Hulme" <phulme@glasshouse.com> > To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:43 PM > Subject: RE: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME > > >> HI Anne, I hadn't spotted the James Brindle in 1836, I wonder where he >> was in 1851 and why they named him James if they already had James Hulme >> living with them in 1841? >> >> I'm going to dig some more around the Butterworths, as far as I know, >> Mary was their only child but I'm a little concerned about the age >> change of Alice between 1841 and 1851, I'll see what I can find. >> >> I had seen the Elizabeth as married in 1861 and I was interested as the >> mother's name on Thomas (their son's) birth certificate says "formerly >> Kay" not "nee Kay". However their marriage certificate lists her as >> spinster. I did notice that the marriage was "by licence" not banns, so >> I will try to figure out how to get a copy of the licence to see if >> that helps. >> >> As to the Thomas connection, I don't know who Elizabeth's father was. >> Even if Kay was her birth name, there are several Elizabeth Kay births >> in Manchester that it could be. I did look at the Thomas Hulme >> possibility and there are three Anne's, born of Thomas that could be the >> mother of 1830 James, again I'll look at it in more detail. >> >> Cheers, Pete >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pneanne [mailto:pne.anne@ntlworld.com] >> Sent: 30 May 2006 11:20 >> To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME >> >> Hi Pete, >> >> Just a couple of things I have noticed. On the 1861 Census in Gaskell >> Street, George and Mary Brindle have a son James aged 19, but he is not >> shown with the family in Cross Street in 1851. >> >> Also, George's wife Mary Brindle (nee Butterworth) was born in >> Halliwell, so >> there is a Halliwell connection between her and the visitor James Hulme, >> who >> is living with them in 1841 and 1851. >> >> On the 1861 Census in Barn Street, where James Hulme is lodging with his >> >> wife to be, Elizabeth Kay, it shows Elizabeth as married. They named >> their >> son Thomas. Do you know if Thomas is the name of Elizabeth's father. >> If >> not, he could be the name of James Hulme's grandfather. Perhaps it >> would be >> an idea to go a generation back and find a Thomas Hulme whose daughter >> was >> the mother of James Hulme. >> >> I hope this makes sense. As you say, it is getting very complicated. >> >> Anne in Bolton. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pete Hulme" <phulme@glasshouse.com> >> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 11:10 PM >> Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] JAMES HULME >> >> >>> Hi Anne, >>> >>> The more we look at this, the more complex it becomes! Lets look at >> the >>> evidence so far;- >>> >>> 1. >>> I think there is a strong chance that the James Hulme, living with the >> >>> Brindles in 1841 and 1851 is 'my' James, partly because we find 'my' >> James >>> and his family living ~ next door to the Brindles again in 1871 >>> 2. >>> Based on your study of the Bolton Baptisms, the only likely James >> birth is >>> the christening of the child of Ann Hulme in Jan 1830. There is no >> other >>> likely James born in Bolton anywhen in the 1830s >>> 3. >>> There is the interesting 'coincidence' of the Thomas Hulme (born >> Chorley) >>> and his wife living two doors from the Brindles when James is with >> them >>> 4. >>> Assuming for a moment that the James at the Brindles is the right one >> and >>> he's the son of Ann Hulme, that doesn't mean he's the son of the >> Dawson >>> Lane Ann, though he could be. >>> 5. >>> Looking at Thomas Hulme, there's a baptism in Chorley on 1st October >> 1815 >>> that could be him, parents are William and Catherine Holme. >>> 6. >>> William and Catherine seem to have a daughter, Mary Ann Holmes >> baptised >>> Chorley 12 Dec 1813 and then have two other children Henry and James >>> baptised at St. Peter's, Bolton on 24 October 1819 (both on the same >> day) >>> 7. >>> BMD shows the death of an Ann Hulme in Bolton in the December quarter >> of >>> 1840 >>> >>> Now lots of bits of supposition and loose thoughts that aren't >> grounded >>> yet;- >>> >>> * Maybe James at the Brindles is the illegitimate son of Mary Ann, >> sister >>> of their neighbour, Thomas? >>> * Maybe there is a Ann Hulme who died in 1840 and her son is with the >>> Brindles? >>> * Maybe both of the above are the same person? >>> >>> At the end of the day, I'm reluctant to give up on the Brindle's James >> >>> Hulme yet, but I'd be a LOT happier if I could link an Ann Hulme to >> them >>> somehow. I'll keep kicking over the trail and see what I can find, at >> some >>> level there MUST be an explanation as to why there is a James Hulme >> living >>> with the Brindles in 1841 and 1851, whether or not it's 'my' James >>> >>> Cheers, Pete Hulme >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >>> For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, >> Westhoughton >>> and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. >>> >>> ============================== >>> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >>> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: >>> http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.3/350 - Release Date: >> 28/05/2006 >>> >> >> >> ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >> For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, >> Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. >> >> ============================== >> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >> For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, >> Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. >> >> ============================== >> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for >> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 29/05/2006 >> >> > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then > subscribe to the other. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >