Wonderful info - thank you Mary

Looks like Fred could still be around. Jacqui Double Olympian Fred's hopes for ace Peter From the Bolton Evening News, first published Friday 18th Jun 2004. FRED Norris doesn't envy the task Leigh's long distance athletics star Peter Riley has set himself to win an Olympic place. He's been there, done that, got the t-shirt. But then Tyldesley's greatest ever athlete is glad he is not running today with the unbeatable Kenyans in a league of their own and standards so high. "They do altitude training, mine was low altitude -- down the pit," says the man who got to the top with the help of jam butties, determination and the love of his wife, Doris. At 82 world record breaking double Olympian Fred can look back on his long and distinguished athletics career in the 50s and 60s with pride, a time he took on the greatest for nothing but a certificate and cuttings for the scrap book. Though his records piled up, Fred is disappointed that his achievements have not been recognised with an OBE. His pal and fellow Olympian, the late Chris Brasher, a founding father of the London marathon, started the ball rolling to get Fred's achievements recognised by the powers that be, but when he died last year Fred was told Downing Street wouldn't honour achievements from over 40 years ago. "It would have been nice, but I shan't lose any sleep over it," said Fred. A widower, Fred has not yet come to terms with the loss of the wind beneath his wings, his wife of 60 years, who died after a stroke last year. She was the lynchpin that kept the family together. While Fred was using up his miner's wages to compete overseas she encouraged him to continue running and worked long hours as a weaver to support herself and their son Edmund. At home in Sale Lane, Tyldesley, Fred still re-lives the races he had against the greatest distance runners of the time including multi Olympic champions Emil Zatopek, Alain Mimoun and our own Derek Ibbotson. And he is proud to show a Pathe News film of his working and running life which was screened at Leigh's Regal Cinema. Fred was born in Primrose Street, Tyldesley, and left school at 14 to work in a machine shop. He played football for Sale Lane United and Winton United. He moved to Cleworth Hall colliery at Tyldesley working on underground maintenance, and running never crossed his mind until he watched the 1948 Olympics on a cinema newsreel. "I could do that," he thought as he saw Zatopek steam to victory. He went onto the football field and ran four laps in four minutes. So at the age of 26 he joined Leigh Harriers and just four years later as a Bolton Harrier he was facing Zatopek in Helsinki for the 1956 Olympic 10,000m final in which he finished seventh. Four years later he competed in the Melbourne Olympic marathon but fell victim to the fierce Aussie heat. When he first caught the athletics bug Fred was up at 5am pounding the streets of Tyldesley before starting a tough shift 900ft down the pit and coming up at 4.30pm, dashing home to wash and change before reeling off another eight to 10 miles. He used to train by racing trolley buses along Manchester Road and gained recognition with travelling fans waving him on his way. "Doris used to have supper ready when I came in. There was no such things as diet. My snap was jam and bread and water most days and when I got home after an evening run I ate what was put on the table. I can't remember what it was, but I can still remember my races very clearly, those I won and those I should have won." One which stands out in his memory is a 15 mile run in Dublin when he lapped the Olympic marathon champion Mamoun three times. In his career Fred clocked up 54 English, British, Commonwealth and European records ranging from seven miles upwards, and at the age of 37 he set the 20, 21 and 22 mile world best times and the two hour world record. In 1959 he was international cross country champion but his hopes of a place in the Rome Olympics in 1960 were shattered by injury. "That was probably the best thing that could have happened, because it led to the family emigrating to America. "I won an athletics scholarship to a univeristy in Louisiana, but Doris didn't like the heat there and we moved to Massachusetts where I got a job in a machine shop. Once again Doris continued working making raincoats until she retired." Over the next three years in the States Fred won 43 out of 44 races from three to 20 miles. He became the Canadian marathon champion but the one title he wanted, the American cross country championship, eluded him -- when he was beaten on the run in by an Australian! Meanwhile son Ed, who now lives in Hawaii, was following in his father's footsteps and won the American marathon championship in 1968. Sadly his career came to an end in 1970 when he broke both knees in a ski-ing accident. Fred continued to run until the age of 42 when a specialist wanted to take his knee cap off and scrape it. He told him no thanks and quit immediately. From then he developed asthma from which he has suffered ever since. Fred said: "I never became a spectator or went to meets though I read about the sport." Both Fred and Doris continued working to retirement age and in 1986 they headed home to Sale Lane, leaving Ed and two grandchildren in the States. "Doris couldn't get back fast enough," said Fred, "She had been homesick for many years, but she was a wonderful wife. I couldn't have done what I did without her. She looked after me for 60 years and never complained even when I brought little money home from the pit. "In those days I was allowed time off to run, but I didn't get paid. One Friday I picked up my wage and there was 10 shillings (50p) in it, but Doris never moaned." He added: "How times have changed. If things had been like they are now I would have been a multi-millionaire, but athletics was more fun in those days when we used to win prizes worth seven guineas. I never even took an aspirin and never had to worry about drugs. If I had my time over again I wouldn't change a thing. "I wouldn't like to be racing now though, the standards are so high it seems almost impossible for our long distance athletes to make the Olympic team. Hardly anyone in this country can reach the 5,000m and 10,000m standards. I feel sorry for Peter, he will have a heck of a job making his dream come true, but I hope he does and wish him all the best." _Archive Home_ (http://archive.thisislancashire.co.uk/) From the Bolton Evening News http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk © Newsquest Media Group 2004 (http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/display5/lancashire/thisislancashire.co.uk/sponsor.php?artid=680728) _Find a Job_ (http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/jobs/) _Find a Home_ (http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/homes/) _Find a Car_ (http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/cars/) Powered by (http://legacy.thisislancashire.co.uk/bold/) (http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.thisislancashire.co.uk/2004/6/18/484689.htm l/46059776/TopRight/OasDefault/essexjobsteaser/fish4job_withus.gif/63333564313 536393433643830626430) (http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.thisislancashire.co.uk/2004/6/18/484689.html/1966467753/Right/OasD efault/lanc-lanc-frontpage-2/danishpine.jpg/63333564313536393433643830626430) (http://adsadmin.newsquest.co.uk/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.thisislancashire.co.uk/2004/6/18/484689.html/1643171043/Right1/OasDefault/lanc-lanc-front page-3/rtsewing.gif/63333564313536393433643830626430)

A bit more about Fred Norris 50 YEARS AGO From the Evening News April 28 1956 FRED NORRIS (Bolton United Harriers), a 34-years-old miner from Tyldesley, ran 12 miles 69 yards and one foot in an hour in an invitation race at Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, to-day, and collected a "hatful of records" in the process. Norris, a track and cross-country international, failed by less than 750 yards to reach Zatopek's world record for the hour set up in 1951, but he became the first British runner to run more than 12 miles in the hour, and is only the third man ever to have done so. Jacqui

In a message dated 08/05/2006 09:40:51 GMT Daylight Time, GfPryc@aol.com writes: If he ran in the 1950s the miler Fred must be the son of my father's cousin Fred, who was born around 1896. Hi A bit about Fred Norris. In the 1954 Boston Marathon Fred Norris, who ran for the Bolton Unoted Harriers competed in the 10000m Because the Olympic tean did not get proper expense allowances Fred didnt even have enough money to phone home to say that he had arrived safely. In 1962 the 40yr old Coal Miner won the Mount Washington Road Race in the stunning time of 1.04.57. Which may still stand as the masters Record. If you type - fred norris, olympic miler - in your search box you will find several references to this great runner, Jacqui Kilcoyne

Does anyone know how I can contact a second cousin, born Kathleen France in Bolton? Her father was Bert France, from Bolton, who in the 1960s became mayor of Cleeveleys, where he was an hotelier. I believe Kathleen is married and living in Blackpool. Thanks Mary

Thanks, Pamela. Have tried Google but dates didn't seem to fit with what I thought I knew (as is often the case!). If he ran in the 1950s the miler Fred must be the son of my father's cousin Fred, who was born around 1896. Mary

Can anyone tell me about my father's cousin Fred Norris, from Bolton? I believe he was an Olympic miler. What year did he do this? How old was he then? What happened to him? Thanks Mary

Hi Donna, Putney is in S W London - so well away from Bolton. Sorry I can't help beyond that. Best wishes Rgds, Bob Thornley, Bolton From: <DJMFLAG@aol.com> > Dear List: My Father's great Ellen (nee Collinge) Jackson and her > husband > John had their picture taken by T.C. Cosby 36 ----------Road, EA S.? > Putney. S.W. <snip>

Dear Val, thanks for the info about Commission Street, yes this is my family but I am now at the stage of trying to get beyond William, as I said I can go back 5 ways, all the names are the same , and they all go back to a John Heap which states Middleton parish, which I have been told was Great Lever, also Ainsworth, and of course Middleton by Oldham, ( which is where my Alexander comes from ) my grandfather was called John Alexander.. regards, margaret Calderbank. ( Heap)

Thank you Martin Gracie New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Briscoe" <mbriscoe@zetnet.co.uk> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 10:00 PM Subject: RE: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] 1811/21/31 Census > > 1811 > HURST > Ann Green Street > Benjn. Spring Gardens > Ellen Union Buildings > Jn. Bengal Square > John Back Rothwell Street > Sarah Stott Hillock > Wm. Churchgate > > > 1821 > HURST > Henry Howell Croft > James Carlile Barn > Jane Ridgway Gate > Jane Rothwell St. > Jn. Willows > Josiah Union Buildings > Peter Old Acres > Tho. Cunliff Yard > > > 1831 > HURST > Henry 45 Pikes Lane > James Gush Place No.12 > James 32 Slatersfield > James Spring Gardens > Jno. 9 Willows > John 23 Green Street > Peter 29 Old Acres > Sarah Howell Croft > Thos. 26 Old Hall Street > HURT > Abraham Bull Field > > > > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gracie [mailto:geburton@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: 07 May 2006 07:43 > To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] 1811/21/31 Census > > Hello Martin, > > Could you please check for HURST > > Thank you > Gracie > New Zealand > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then > subscribe to the other. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, > but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton > and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Hello Martin, Could you please check for HURST Thank you Gracie New Zealand

My Father Reuben Collinge was born Jan 4, 1901 in Droylesden. At the time they lived in a very old big farmhouse. When I was there in 1997 or 1998, I had been told that it had just been torn down and a very nice suburb with brick houses replaced it. I think that there might have been other families living in that farm house. Would anyone know who the families were? Thanking you kindly, Donna Collinge Martens, Muskegon, Michigan

Dear List: My Father's great Ellen (nee Collinge) Jackson and her husband John had their picture taken by T.C. Cosby 36 ----------Road, EA S.? Putney. S.W. . I am hoping it is in Bolton as that is where they lived. They were married in the late 1890+'s. Would anyone know how I would be able to find about these pictures. Perhaps he took pictures of other siblings. I put this on the list once before and didn't get any answers. Hopefully, I'll do better this time.

Does anyone know the population of Bolton Le Moor in 1841? Or the census years either side of this? TIA Karen

Thanks Martin for the Grundy info Dorothy

I understand that mailing lists can be set up so that replies go to the list or just to the sender. But I can't understand why, when clicking "Reply" (in Outlook) on two seemingly identical messages on the Bolton list, one reply is sent to the list and the other only to the sender. Neither were copied directly to me. Martin Briscoe Fort William M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS

1811 HURST Ann Green Street Benjn. Spring Gardens Ellen Union Buildings Jn. Bengal Square John Back Rothwell Street Sarah Stott Hillock Wm. Churchgate 1821 HURST Henry Howell Croft James Carlile Barn Jane Ridgway Gate Jane Rothwell St. Jn. Willows Josiah Union Buildings Peter Old Acres Tho. Cunliff Yard 1831 HURST Henry 45 Pikes Lane James Gush Place No.12 James 32 Slatersfield James Spring Gardens Jno. 9 Willows John 23 Green Street Peter 29 Old Acres Sarah Howell Croft Thos. 26 Old Hall Street HURT Abraham Bull Field Martin Briscoe Fort William M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS -----Original Message----- From: Gracie [mailto:geburton@xtra.co.nz] Sent: 07 May 2006 07:43 To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] 1811/21/31 Census Hello Martin, Could you please check for HURST Thank you Gracie New Zealand ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then subscribe to the other. ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Hi All, I'm alittle slow on the pick-up here. I keep seeing 1811, 1812, 1813 mentioned. Is someone doing lookups for this time frame? I have a few families in Bolton I have been researching and , of course, would love any information I could get. Please let me know if I may put my surnames forward for look-up. Many thanks, Val Chadwick USA Martin Briscoe wrote: >1811 >HURST >Ann Green Street >Benjn. Spring Gardens >Ellen Union Buildings >Jn. Bengal Square >John Back Rothwell Street >Sarah Stott Hillock >Wm. Churchgate > > >1821 >HURST >Henry Howell Croft >James Carlile Barn >Jane Ridgway Gate >Jane Rothwell St. >Jn. Willows >Josiah Union Buildings >Peter Old Acres >Tho. Cunliff Yard > > >1831 >HURST >Henry 45 Pikes Lane >James Gush Place No.12 >James 32 Slatersfield >James Spring Gardens >Jno. 9 Willows >John 23 Green Street >Peter 29 Old Acres >Sarah Howell Croft >Thos. 26 Old Hall Street >HURT >Abraham Bull Field > > > > >Martin Briscoe >Fort William >M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gracie [mailto:geburton@xtra.co.nz] >Sent: 07 May 2006 07:43 >To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] 1811/21/31 Census > >Hello Martin, > >Could you please check for HURST > >Thank you >Gracie >New Zealand > > >==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then >subscribe to the other. > >============================== >Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, >but entire generations. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > > > > > >==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > >

Dear Valerie, Am I right to assume you have had no further contact from the niece of Alice Topping (photo of Bert & Alice France & twins Kathleen & Philip, in "Looking Back" Bolton Evening News)? You may remember she was contacting another relative & would get back to you. Do you think it is possible to try to contact her again through the newspaper & if so, how to go about it? Or any other way? Frank Elson emailed to say he had put a corrected email address for me in the column but,sad to say, have heard nothing from anyone further. Zipporah has vanished without trace. Perhaps she died after all but I have not found the record of her death. Many thanks again for all you help. Mary

I am trying to find the parents of John Ramsden, my maternal gggrandfather. The earliest record of him is in the 1841 census age 24 born in Bolton, living in Harwood. I know there were numerous John Ramsdens around at that time, but wondered if anybody had access to 1821 and 1831 censuses, which may give any clues. It is possible that his father was also called John. Hoping somebody can be of help. Regards, Michael Walker