Maureen that is interesting. I'd been wondering what folk did when the midden filled up, just moved the 'little house' above it? I'm sure that description of Bolton was typical of most of the swiftly growing towns on that time. I've seen similar comments about Preston. Also I thought the houses in the centre block of the square may have been 'back-to-back' which would have meant no 'back yard'? thank you for your help, cheers, Cassie On 22/05/2006, at 2:49 AM, Maureen Marsh wrote: > Hello everyone, > reading the mails about Bolton and its drains etc brought this book > to mind, written by Raymond > Hargreaves in about 1985 with extracts taken from Bolton papers. > This tells it as it really was, not very pleasant to say the least. > > VICTORIAN YEARS, > BOLTON 1850-1860. > > Bolton Chronicle 11 June 1853. > > Too much attention to the sanitary conditions of the Borough cannot > be paid at any time, but more > especially during this present hot weather, when atmospheric > impurities and noxious effluvia arising > from surcharged cesspools and putrid matter which has been allowed > to accumulate upon our > middensteads, tend to engender disease and to foster those > epidemics which if not checked in time > would soon decimate our population. > > The committee had for a long time been aware of the difficulty of > cleaning the river Croal; and when > they took into account that parties brought before the Bench had > been merely fined 2s6d for putting > probably a hundred cart loads of cinders in the river the > difficulty became greater still. There > were factories foundries and bleachworks which emptied all their > cinders in the Croal, there were > numerous parties which emptied all their filth into the river and > unless these cases could be more > vigorously dealt with than heretofore it would be out of the power > of the Sanitary Committee to do > their duty. > It was not the poor but the rich who could afford to pay who put > these cinders in the river and > therefore ought to be proceeded against. > > ( In September 1853 there was an outbreak of Cholera.) > > 24 Sept 1853. Editorial. > > In whatever direction we move we shall not have to travel far > before we meet with cesspools "running > over" into the very streets, dungheaps reeking with all imaginable > kinds of filth, drains and > gutters streaming with all kinds of impurities, offensive trade > operations carried on, from which > the sickening smells continually arise, stagnant pools of water > constantly emitting the most > deleterious mephitic gases, houses devoid of those conveniences > which decency as well as cleanliness > renders indispensable, and in short, the most palpable proofs of > the presence in rank luxuriance of > every description of abominable nuisance, calculated alone to > engender disease, and certain, in case > of the appearance of cholera amongst us, to aggravate its horrors > and to increase its fatality. > <end> > The articals go on about the sad state of affairs in Bolton and the > conditions of the people, and > how they had to live, it is one of the best reads I have found for > telling it as it was, no rose > tinted glasses here. > > Hope you find this interesting. > Regards Maureen. > > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, send the command "unsubscribe" to > ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L-request@rootsweb.com (if in mail mode) or ENG-LAN- > BOLTON-D-request@rootsweb.com (if in digest mode.) > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

Hi,the only one I can find in about the correct time is MARY ALICE BARLOW married Bolton 1898 Apr/may/jun V8c P702.If you look for Mary Alice Barlow in the 1891 census and see if her age is the same as Mary Ball in the 1901 census this will give you an indication as to if she is the correct one but it is not conclusive. Good Luck,Kath jonathan ball <itsbally@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary was born in Bolton around 1875. Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i would be eternally grateful. Regards Jonathan Ball. ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then subscribe to the other. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

In a message dated 22/05/2006 06:01:08 GMT Daylight Time, ENG-LAN-BOLTON-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: X-Message: #9 Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 20:17:38 +0000 From: "jonathan ball" <itsbally@hotmail.com> To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <BAY113-F26C8DFAB5BA2216E1788EBDBA50@phx.gbl> Subject: long shot...Maiden name req'd Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary was born in Bolton around 1875. Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i would be eternally grateful. Regards Jonathan The transcription of the 1901 Census gives the name Mary H, as the wife of John Ball. This I believe is a mistake. Her middle initial is undoubtably an 'A', which gives the probability that John Ball married Mary Alice Barlow at Bolton June Qtr 1898 - 8e 702 (as the young lady Sandie suggested) Gilbert Ball was born at Bolton June Qtr 1900 - 8c 440 A. Anderson Manchester, England

Jonathan are there other children on the 1901 census ,if so what are their names and ages please? Dorothy Livesey -----Original Message----- From: jonathan ball [mailto:itsbally@hotmail.com] Sent: 21 May 2006 21:18 To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] long shot...Maiden name req'd

Hi Cassie John's parents came from Tarleton near Southport.I'm lucky thay my direct ancestry is relatively easy to trace as each has been the son of son etc. I'm just looking for the maiden name of my Great Grandmother. Like I said i could find it by purchasing her son's birth certificate but it's much more fun going through the message board! Take care.. Jonathan. >From: Cassie Thornley <cassethor@ozemail.com.au> >Reply-To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] long shot...Maiden name req'd >Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 07:05:42 +1000 > >Hi Jonathan, I've a BALL family who lived in Golborne, many of the >children moved to Bolton, do you much about your John's parents? > >cheers, Cassie > >On 22/05/2006, at 6:17 AM, jonathan ball wrote: > >>Hi >> >>I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother >>of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, >>Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary >>was born in Bolton around 1875. >> >>Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can >>help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i >>would be eternally grateful. >> >>Regards >> >>Jonathan Ball. >> >> >> >>==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >>For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, >>Westhoughton and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. >> >>============================== >>Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >>areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >>Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > > >==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== >To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then >subscribe to the other. > >============================== >Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Hi I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary was born in Bolton around 1875. Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i would be eternally grateful. Regards Jonathan Ball.

Hi I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary was born in Bolton around 1875. Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i would be eternally grateful. Regards Jonathan Ball.

Hi Maureen, The book you mentioned sounded just like the sort of history I enjoy reading.The "good old days" aren't always what they are cracked up to be. I googled Abe Books and found two copies, one of which I have ordered. There is one left if any others listers are interested. Now I have to wait patiently for 45 days until it arrives from Manchester. Thanks for the tip cuz Joyce in Victoria. On Sunday, May 21, 2006, at 09:49 AM, Maureen Marsh wrote: > Hello everyone, > reading the mails about Bolton and its drains etc brought this book to > mind, written by Raymond > Hargreaves in about 1985 with extracts taken from Bolton papers. > This tells it as it really was, not very pleasant to say the least. > > VICTORIAN YEARS, > BOLTON 1850-1860. > > Bolton Chronicle 11 June 1853. > > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list, send the command "unsubscribe" to > ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L-request@rootsweb.com (if in mail mode) or > ENG-LAN-BOLTON-D-request@rootsweb.com (if in digest mode.) > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

Hi Anne, I've been looking at the James Hulme information you gave me, and I've looked it up in the 1851 census (I don't have an 1841). I still don't really know what to think about this. Firstly Cross Street really is Little Bolton and not Turton, it runs (or ran) off Kay Street, parallel to Turton Street and so is a more reasonable fit with James' birth in Halliwell. The age bothers me, as it's a bit too old, but of course his age does vary with the other records I have found. This James is definitely a possible. I'm going to see if I can make any connection with the Butterworth or Brindle names (mostly the former) as guess he MUST be connected to the family he's living with. By the way, you had the letters F.S next to Alice Butterworth in 1841, what does that mean? Cheers, Pete Hulme

Hi Jonathan, The only info I can offer is that the likeliest birth for Gilbert Ball is registered Bolton vol 9c p440 in Apr-Jun 1900, and there is a likely marriage of John Ball Bolton vol 8c p702 Apr-Jun1898.I can't find Mary's maiden name I'm afraid - why not go for the marriage cert. and then you get her father's christian name as well? Sandie In a message dated 21/05/06 22:30:53 GMT Daylight Time, itsbally@hotmail.com writes: Hi Cassie John's parents came from Tarleton near Southport.I'm lucky thay my direct ancestry is relatively easy to trace as each has been the son of son etc. I'm just looking for the maiden name of my Great Grandmother. Like I said i could find it by purchasing her son's birth certificate but it's much more fun going through the message board! Take care.. Jonathan. >From: Cassie Thornley <cassethor@ozemail.com.au> >Reply-To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >To: ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] long shot...Maiden name req'd >Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 07:05:42 +1000 > >Hi Jonathan, I've a BALL family who lived in Golborne, many of the >children moved to Bolton, do you much about your John's parents? > >cheers, Cassie > >On 22/05/2006, at 6:17 AM, jonathan ball wrote: > >>Hi >> >>I'm trying to find the maiden name of Mary, wife of John Ball and mother >>of Gilbert (aged 1)who appears in the census of 1901 residing at 150, >>Okenbottom road, Bolton. The only information i can offer is that mary >>was born in Bolton around 1875. >> >>Of course i appreciate this is not much information but If anyone can >>help thus saving me the fee for a copy of Gilbert's birth certificate i >>would be eternally grateful. >> >>Regards

Hello everyone, reading the mails about Bolton and its drains etc brought this book to mind, written by Raymond Hargreaves in about 1985 with extracts taken from Bolton papers. This tells it as it really was, not very pleasant to say the least. VICTORIAN YEARS, BOLTON 1850-1860. Bolton Chronicle 11 June 1853. Too much attention to the sanitary conditions of the Borough cannot be paid at any time, but more especially during this present hot weather, when atmospheric impurities and noxious effluvia arising from surcharged cesspools and putrid matter which has been allowed to accumulate upon our middensteads, tend to engender disease and to foster those epidemics which if not checked in time would soon decimate our population. The committee had for a long time been aware of the difficulty of cleaning the river Croal; and when they took into account that parties brought before the Bench had been merely fined 2s6d for putting probably a hundred cart loads of cinders in the river the difficulty became greater still. There were factories foundries and bleachworks which emptied all their cinders in the Croal, there were numerous parties which emptied all their filth into the river and unless these cases could be more vigorously dealt with than heretofore it would be out of the power of the Sanitary Committee to do their duty. It was not the poor but the rich who could afford to pay who put these cinders in the river and therefore ought to be proceeded against. ( In September 1853 there was an outbreak of Cholera.) 24 Sept 1853. Editorial. In whatever direction we move we shall not have to travel far before we meet with cesspools "running over" into the very streets, dungheaps reeking with all imaginable kinds of filth, drains and gutters streaming with all kinds of impurities, offensive trade operations carried on, from which the sickening smells continually arise, stagnant pools of water constantly emitting the most deleterious mephitic gases, houses devoid of those conveniences which decency as well as cleanliness renders indispensable, and in short, the most palpable proofs of the presence in rank luxuriance of every description of abominable nuisance, calculated alone to engender disease, and certain, in case of the appearance of cholera amongst us, to aggravate its horrors and to increase its fatality. <end> The articals go on about the sad state of affairs in Bolton and the conditions of the people, and how they had to live, it is one of the best reads I have found for telling it as it was, no rose tinted glasses here. Hope you find this interesting. Regards Maureen.

Ken, I am afraid we have no Esther on our family tree. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ken walker" <kwalker17@msn.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] info if possible > For C & M Calderbank > > I am the Grandson of Joe and Gertie Walker, formerly of Broad'oth Lane, > Harold St and Windermere St. > Gertie had a friend called Ester Calderbank, does this ring any bells with > you? > I Think Ester [or Esther or Hester] had a daughter called Lesley. > > Ken Walker > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > For Family/Local History covering Bolton, Horwich, Farnworth, Westhoughton > and Turton. Please keep the messages coming. > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

I had the same thought, Paul. In fact, I also had the thought about not dwelling on it, but since you've warmed the seat, I'll perhaps be permitted to report that when I was a lad in the 1940s there were still plenty of middens around in the back yards of the terraced streets of Dobb'l where I lived. And complete with night-soil men who came round to empty them. Each house had a small, square-ish wooden door on it's back-yard wall to facilitate the execution of this fragrant occupation. There was universally running water in the area, but as we see from the pumps shown on Cassie's map, this was not the case in earlier times. So, we've achieved some progress - even if they only empty the bins every other week now. Rgds, Bob Thornley, Bolton From: "Paul Clough" <ml-genealogy@cloughie.com> >> Your reading of the map is similar to what I suspected, it is >> probable that the outdoor 'petties' (hadn't known they were called >> that) just flowed down the street until the effluent reached a drain >> - or were they serviced by an underground pipe, by this time, and >> the 'grate' only collected surface waste from the street?. > > I would have expected them to be earth middens? Best not to dwell on it > too > much, I suppose! > > Paul.

Got it! Thanks ever so much. Paul. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin & Margaret" <marlin.2817@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] Wills and Historical House Prices > Hi Paul. Reference to Salt Pie Row, Bolton map of 1882, shows it off 79 > Blackburn Street, (now Deane Road). present location would be between the > present University and Joshua Crook Mill.. Salt Pie Row no longer exists. > If you remember Bolton, the Regent Cinema was at the end of the street, on > Deane Road. > > C & M Calderbank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Clough" <ml-genealogy@cloughie.com> > To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:21 PM > Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] Wills and Historical House Prices > > > > Hi all, > > > > I just got a will back, (John Markland d1860 on the off chance anyone is > > interested) and I've got a few questions: > > > > 1. Where is Salt Pie Row? I can't see it on a map, though James Riding > > said > > this in the list: "Salt Pie Yard, located behind the Gypsy's Tent pub on > > Red > > Lion Brow" - if so where's Red Lion Brow? White Lion Brow I know - my > > grandfather was born there - but not Red Lion Brow. > > > > 2. He leaves a ruck of houses on Salt Pie Row - 4 "double" houses, plus a > > place in Spring Gardens and 220 quid to his kids, yet the estate is still > > valued at less than £600. Rooting around on the gimpnet reveals that £600 > > is > > worth £37K now with inflation - that doesn't tie in with 5-9 houses. Am I > > missing something? I tried to find a site with historical house price data > > but I couldn't, does anyone know of anything? > > > > Thanks a lot, > > > > Paul. > > ------------ > > "Beer - it's not just a breakfast drink!" > > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > > Bolton Metro - bolton@bolton.gov.uk > > > > ============================== > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then subscribe to the other. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

> Your reading of the map is similar to what I suspected, it is > probable that the outdoor 'petties' (hadn't known they were called > that) just flowed down the street until the effluent reached a drain > - or were they serviced by an underground pipe, by this time, and > the 'grate' only collected surface waste from the street?. I would have expected them to be earth middens? Best not to dwell on it too much, I suppose! Paul.

It does look as though the grates were over some sort of storm water (primitive sewer?) drain doesn't it? When did Bolton start building a proper sewer system? I guess it all poured straight into the River Croal though. When I went to school in Bolton in the 1950s I sometimes used to go and look in awed fascination at the Croal as it flowed in its brick and stone canyon through the town centre - the stink was appalling (maybe it still is but I would have hoped that by now it has been cleaned up a tad). And before getting on to more salubrious matters, those small outhouses presumably were privvies, though they were no doubt know by the local name as petties. That's the mucky stuff over, now for some clean water. On the Public Monuments site (discussed on the Lancs list recently, mainly in connection with Vimto) I came across a Bolton monument I don't remember seeing. The PEOPLE'S FOUNTAIN. It was unveiled in ~1860 in Bradshawgate and was a bronze statue of a semi-naked female figure pouring water from jug into a pitcher surmounting a stone basin and base. It was one of a number of public drinking fountains intended to benefit the health and increase the temperence of Bolton's thirsty masses. It was soon removed to Bolton Park, and as happens to all things in time, was vandalised in 1978. Is Bolton Park the same as Queens Park that I used to walk through twice a day between the trolley bus station at Howell Croft and school? I can't remember ogling any semi-naked female statues on the way. Peter Wood

Thank you for your comments, Peter. Bolton did not have a proper sewerage disposal system until the end of the 19thC. Human effluent, muck from the streets full of horses etc., and factory chemicals and waste all poured into the Croal. Your reading of the map is similar to what I suspected, it is probable that the outdoor 'petties' (hadn't known they were called that) just flowed down the street until the effluent reached a drain - or were they serviced by an underground pipe, by this time, and the 'grate' only collected surface waste from the street?. cheers, Cassie On 21/05/2006, at 9:47 AM, Peter Wood wrote: > It does look as though the grates were over some sort of storm water > (primitive sewer?) drain doesn't it? When did Bolton start building a > proper sewer system? I guess it all poured straight into the River > Croal > though. When I went to school in Bolton in the 1950s I sometimes > used to go > and look in awed fascination at the Croal as it flowed in its brick > and > stone canyon through the town centre - the stink was appalling > (maybe it > still is but I would have hoped that by now it has been cleaned up > a tad). > > And before getting on to more salubrious matters, those small > outhouses > presumably were privvies, though they were no doubt know by the > local name > as petties. > > That's the mucky stuff over, now for some clean water. On the Public > Monuments site (discussed on the Lancs list recently, mainly in > connection > with Vimto) I came across a Bolton monument I don't remember > seeing. The > PEOPLE'S FOUNTAIN. > It was unveiled in ~1860 in Bradshawgate and was a bronze statue of a > semi-naked female figure pouring water from jug into a pitcher > surmounting > a stone basin and base. It was one of a number of public drinking > fountains > intended to benefit the health and increase the temperence of Bolton's > thirsty masses. > > It was soon removed to Bolton Park, and as happens to all things in > time, > was vandalised in 1978. Is Bolton Park the same as Queens Park that > I used > to walk through twice a day between the trolley bus station at > Howell Croft > and school? I can't remember ogling any semi-naked female statues > on the way. > > Peter Wood > > > > ==== ENG-LAN-BOLTON Mailing List ==== > To switch from one mode to the other, unsubscribe from one and then > subscribe to the other. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Hello List. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas on how I can trace a stray from the 1881 census. I have found his family living with his in-laws and having trawled for hours can find no sign of him. I know he hadn't died as he was back with his family on the 1901 census. His name is Dan BENTLEY and he was a bleachworker. Regards. Perle Brooking. Younghusband. South Australia.

Can you give us some idea of his age? Jane

Hi everybody, In response to Cassie's query re 1850 map of Bengal Square, I have now displayed this on my website for a short period only, in the hope that someone will be able to explain what Grates are. I think the pumps must be where people drew water. Url http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~boltongenealogy/bengalsq.htm Sorry that the words grates and pumps are so tiny, but if I enlarge them any more the map will take too long to download. Valerie -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 19/05/2006