Hello Valerie Thanks for prompting me about Dark Days. I saw a copy when I was in England in 2003 before the Pretoria Project started in earnest. I mentally put it in my "buy one day" virtual filing system, which is a very cluttered place. I now have a copy on order! The MIs that Pam took pics of were for Enoch Arthur Bates, William & Robert Cowburn, John & William Higson, Peter Higson, Thomas Howcroft, Wm Henry Middlehurst. She is taking a gang from the Howfen Local History Group back there to search for more. Plus going back to Heaton where she has recruited Dave and Mick, a couple of friendly gravediggers, to find stones. I got the grave numbers from the Heaton registers, but the office staff there apparently don't have much of a clue how the old numbering system works. Pam was wandering around last month looking lost when Mick offered help with the words "you don't want to talk to them in the office - you need the head grave digger", and promptly got on his mobile to bring Dave to the scene. So there you have it now - the secret to finding graves in the Heaton maze is to look lost and hope that Dave and/or Mick are about. Hint - look for shovels full of earth flicking into the air if you can't see them anywhere above ground. Peter Wood

Sue wrote < I have recently discovered new children, who would have been my Husband's aunts and uncles (Alice, Sarah Jane and George, 1912 to 1917). It seems they died young and it has made me wonder whether there were other children who died, since there are suspicious gaps between birth dates.> Hi Sue, I have checked for Mary Elizabeth's birth on the GRO but the only one I found was in the September quarter 1905 in Middlesborough. As the family were living in Milk Street, and Ardwick Street, Gt. Lever, the nearest RC church would be SS Peter & Paul (otherwise known as Pilkington Street Chapel). Bolton Archives hold records of baptisms from 1794 - 1941. I will check for you when the Archives reopen. Valerie

Hi Valerie, Thank you for your offer to check at the library for me. If you do not have time though, not to worry, as I can e mail them. Regards from Ottawa Joan

Hi Peter, As I thought. So many of the churches have been demolished. Next time I go over, I think I will make the effort to photograph as many of the churches that I can. Valerie & Bob have taken photographs of church/chapel for me in the passed. Perhaps they can be used for the OPC site? Also,I wonder if Local Historical Societies have collections. I know from Terry Higginson's booklet on Brownlow Fold, that photographs were loaned by the Halliwell LFS. Thank you for the image of the map. It is wonderful and I have been browsing over it for ages. Is the map readily available? Thank you also for the fantastic job you are doing with the OPC project. I for one am VERY grateful that so much information is so easily available. Regards from Ottawa Joan Bridges

Looking through my notes on the GILLERs, my husband's maternal grandfather's line, I have the following problem, and I wonder if anyone can help me solve it. I have three GEORGE GILLERs in Bolton at a similar time. The name is very rare in the Bolton censuses, and I have ancestry and have tried other spellings. One is GEORGE GILLER of Penwortham. Born around 1801 (although he does sometimes lie about his age) he's a bed quilt manufacturer, and is married to MARY (HESKETH?)born 1823. Sometimes they have a son JOHN WILSON with them (born Walton 1843 he's with them in 61 but not 51), but who's son he is I'm not sure. Our direct ancestor is their son WILLIAM born 1856.By 1881 he's a widower (Mary probably died in 1874) and in the Workhouse. I think he died in 1889 aged 88. The other GEORGE GILLER is married to MARY ANN (WOODS?). He was born either in Kirkham around 1822 or in Penwortham (1881 census), she in Wray Green around 1817. He's a painter. They have two daughters- Mary Ann born 1848 and Maria 1853. By 81 he too is widowed and living with his daughters. I think he's the GEORGE GILLER that dies in 1889 aged 68. As a further puzzle there's another GEORGE GILLER who dies in Bolton in 1887 aged 74. I can't find him in the census at all! Is the second GEORGE GILLER the son of the first, possibly from an earlier marriage? Who is the third? Any thoughts on this one much appreciated! Barbara

Found a relative GEORGE GILLER living there in 1881 census as an old man. Anyone know if there's records on the inmates at Bolton Archives and what details they might give? Thanks, Barbara

Hi Carolyn, I'm afraid I gave you rather misleading information in my message re Bury. There is currently no list dedicated to Bury. The Lancsgen list would cover this. There is, however, an excellent website called Bury Pages, which is run by a subscriber to this list http://users.bigpond.net.au/bunter/index.htm which you may find of help. Cheers, Valerie

Hi Joan, You wrote < After several weeks without my i-book, I am now up and running again.... .......did you miss me >VBG< I have continued chasing my DEAN family and have found numerous marriages and baptisms at St. James the Apostle, Waterloo St. Little Bolton. I have checked Phil's site www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churches but there is not even a picture of the church. I am assuming that, as the church closed in 1962, it no longer exists? Does anyone have any knowledge of St. James? I could contact the Library. Are they still closed?> I thought the list had been unusually quiet!! (Even bigger grin). The Bolton Evening News ran a series on Bolton churches, with photographs, in the 1960's, and Bolton Archives have copies of these. I will check next time I go to see if they have one of St. James. Cheers, Valerie

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I've been nattering on about trying to find Pretoria disaster burials at Deane and other places, and thanks to Pam Clarke's efforts we made a break-through this week, which I thought worth commenting on to the list. Pam contacted the Vicar of Deane and made an appointment to go and see the burial register - apparently only he and the church warden have access to the safe where the registers are kept. It was a most successful visit, and Pam came away with details of 26 Pretoria burials, and found a handful of gravestones with MIs in the church cemetery. Nearly all lived in the Daubhill-Deane area. Out of the 344 victims we now know where 329 were buried, including those whose bodies were beyond recognition and are in the vault beneath the cenotaph in Westhoughton Cemetery. There were 24 corpses unknown at the time of burial, but half a dozen or so were identified later from items of clothing and body descriptions. Some of the 25 left lived in the Daubhill area, and were probably buried locally, but I have no idea where. Not surprisingly there was confusion at times. One man was identified by a rent receipt with his name found in his pocket. However, his family said they had already identified and buried that person. The men would strip off their top clothes and put them aside when they got to work at the face, and it seems in the confusion and darkness after the blast, someone else had grabbed his waistcoat and worn it for the minutes he had left. In another case, a collier William Lord had left his family and pushed off to Yorkshire. His wife and brother assumed he was down Pretoria and actually identified an 'unknown' body as him. The Coroner issued a certificate and all was set to bury him at Tonge when a telegram from Barnsley arrived with the words - "Alive Woman, Send to pit at once". I actually found his burial in the Tonge Cemetery register; it was crossed out and another name inserted. They must write in the register before burial and have the priest sign off after. Peter Wood

Howdo Peter I was in Farnworth library yesterday and I say a book re Pretoria pit in fre section of local history. I had a quick look and it seemed to give long lists of people and the coroners reports, I will call in tommorrow and have a good look at it Dan -----Original Message----- From: eng-lan-bolton-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-lan-bolton-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Peter Wood Sent: 06 September 2006 10:16 To: eng-lan-bolton@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] DEANE Burials - Pretoria success I've been nattering on about trying to find Pretoria disaster burials at Deane and other places, and thanks to Pam Clarke's efforts we made a break-through this week, which I thought worth commenting on to the list. Pam contacted the Vicar of Deane and made an appointment to go and see the burial register - apparently only he and the church warden have access to the safe where the registers are kept. It was a most successful visit, and Pam came away with details of 26 Pretoria burials, and found a handful of gravestones with MIs in the church cemetery. Nearly all lived in the Daubhill-Deane area. Out of the 344 victims we now know where 329 were buried, including those whose bodies were beyond recognition and are in the vault beneath the cenotaph in Westhoughton Cemetery. There were 24 corpses unknown at the time of burial, but half a dozen or so were identified later from items of clothing and body descriptions. Some of the 25 left lived in the Daubhill area, and were probably buried locally, but I have no idea where. Not surprisingly there was confusion at times. One man was identified by a rent receipt with his name found in his pocket. However, his family said they had already identified and buried that person. The men would strip off their top clothes and put them aside when they got to work at the face, and it seems in the confusion and darkness after the blast, someone else had grabbed his waistcoat and worn it for the minutes he had left. In another case, a collier William Lord had left his family and pushed off to Yorkshire. His wife and brother assumed he was down Pretoria and actually identified an 'unknown' body as him. The Coroner issued a certificate and all was set to bury him at Tonge when a telegram from Barnsley arrived with the words - "Alive Woman, Send to pit at once". I actually found his burial in the Tonge Cemetery register; it was crossed out and another name inserted. They must write in the register before burial and have the priest sign off after. Peter Wood ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LAN-BOLTON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 04/09/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 04/09/2006

Hello All, After several weeks without my i-book, I am now up and running again.... .......did you miss me >VBG< I have continued chasing my DEAN family and have found numerous marriages and baptisms at St. James the Apostle, Waterloo St. Little Bolton. I have checked Phil's site www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churches but there is not even a picture of the church. I am assuming that, as the church closed in 1962, it no longer exists? Does anyone have any knowledge of St. James? I could contact the Library. Are they still closed? My GGreatfather, Charles Robert DEAN had a nephew of the same name. It seem that the younger Charles Robert lived all of his married life at 66, Charles Rupert St. He was there in 1952. Again, it seems the street has gone. Any knowledge of the area that anyone can share, I would be happy to receive. Regards from Ottawa Joan

Hi Peter, Glad to hear that Pam's persistence has paid off. I would be interested to know which MI's Pam found, as I did not find any when I looked. I obtained the book from my friend titled "Dark Days" by Ken Howarth. As you rightly surmised, it does not contain any names or places of burial of the victims. However it does contain lots of first hand accounts of the tragedy, including those of relatives, and rescuers. Are you familiar with this publication? Valerie

Hi Karen, You wrote < I have just found some information that may be one of my long lost relations. The marriage according to Boyds records state the place of marriage as 1829 at Rivington. Is there a church there and do you know if the records would be available.> This would most probably be Rivington Church. Bolton Archives hold baptismal records from 1637-1877, as well as Marriages 1637-1836, and Burials from 1637-1876. There is also Rivington Unitarian (formerly Presbyterian), with baptismal records from 1747-1837, and Burials from 1788-1891. However, marriages would not be permitted at this chapel at the time you mention. Have you sent details of your ASHWORTH family to the list, as that is my maiden name? My Ashworth's lived in Halliwell for generations. Please send all future messages to the list. Valerie

Hello Listers I have recently discovered new children, who would have been my Husband's aunts and uncles (Alice, Sarah Jane and George, 1912 to 1917). It seems they died young and it has made me wonder whether there were other children who died, since there are suspicious gaps between birth dates. (Funny how you get suspicious of everything after a while!!) This is what I have so far: Parents: Patrick O'Hara (b. Ireland approx 1877). Alice Allen (b. Radcliffe, approx 1880). Married at St. Mary's, Radcliffe on 21 May 1902. Children: John, 9 Apr 1903, 11 Tower St, Radcliffe (father furnaceman), bapt at St Mary's, Radcliffe. Mary Elizabeth, 1906 (cannot find an index for her birth). Alice, 29 Mar 1912, 7 Ardwick St, Bolton (father forge lab). Sarah Jane, 29 Nov 1914, 12 Milk St, Bolton (father Gen Lab). George, 12 Nov 1917, 12 Milk St, Bolton (father lab in Locomotive works). Kathleen, 27 Jun 1920, Bolton. Alice, 22 Apr 1923, Bolton. Annie, 30 Dec 1924, Bolton. I don't know when they moved from Radcliffe to Bolton. They were Catholic, this might help with which church. As I am a few hundred miles away and unable to get to Bolton myself, I am hoping there is a very kind person who might be able to check Parish Registers for me. I would love to know when Mary Elizabeth was born (or baptised), any dates of death for the 3 new children and any dates for possible children between the years of 1906 to 1912. I would be very grateful for any information. Sue Tomkins

Hi Carolyn, You wrote <Please could SKS tell me on what List St Mary, Bury; St Mary, Radcliffe ;Parish Church, Tottingham; Emmanuel Church, Bolton and the Parish Church at Edgeworth would be?> Emmanuel Church and the Parish Church Edgworth (St. Anne's) are covered by this list. The others are covered by Bury. BTW the name is Tottington not Tottingham. Hope this helps. Valerie

Hi Joan The church has been demolished. Its location can be seen on the c1930 OS map:- http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Bolton-le-Moors/images/full/Bolton_OS_ec.jpg It is at the NW end of Waterloo St which is towards the top of the map in the centre. If anyone has a picture of this, or any other church that has been demolished, I would be happy to make it available for all to see through the OPC site. Regards, Paul Dixon Carrollton, Texas Co-ordinator, Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerks --- Joan Bridges <jbridges@magma.ca> wrote: > Hello All, > > After several weeks without my i-book, I am now up and running again.... > .......did you miss me >VBG< > > I have continued chasing my DEAN family and have found numerous marriages > and baptisms at St. James the Apostle, Waterloo St. Little Bolton. > I have checked Phil's site www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/churches > but there is not even a picture of the church. > I am assuming that, as the church closed in 1962, it no longer exists? > Does anyone have any knowledge of St. James? I could contact the Library. > Are they still closed? > > My GGreatfather, Charles Robert DEAN had a nephew of the same name. > It seem that the younger Charles Robert lived all of his married life at > 66, Charles Rupert St. He was there in 1952. Again, it seems the > street has gone. > Any knowledge of the area that anyone can share, I would be happy to receive. > > Regards from Ottawa > > Joan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-LAN-BOLTON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Greetings, Please could SKS tell me on what List St Mary, Bury; St Mary, Radcliffe ;Parish Church, Tottingham; Emmanuel Church, Bolton and the Parish Church at Edgeworth would be? I appear to have connections in all these, as well as Bolton. Best wishes, Carolyn.

Hi, I have a lady who is causing some problems. All I know is she came to N.Z for a holiday about 1925. Plus she and her husband had a sweetshop. The family called her Florrie. The story goes her surname was KIMBER possibly KEMBER. Somehow she is connected to the FLETCHER AND BURTON family I would appreciate it if you can help find out who she is. Thanks Joy W .N.Z ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elyse Chugg" <elyse_chugg@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-LAN-BOLTON@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] HOLLAND > Hi > > Could anyone please tell me is there a sweet shop or something on 4 Kingsley > Street Bolton. According to 1901 census my grandfather was a sweetshop > keeper working on own account from home at above address and I was wondering > if it was still around or if anyone knows anything about maybe a photo or > something > > Elyse (from tassy) > > _________________________________________________________________ > 1000s of Sexy Singles online now at Lavalife. Click here > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D23198&_t=751140432&_r=emailtaglines_search_aug06&_m=EXT > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LAN-BOLTON-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 1/09/06 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 4/09/06

Further to yesterday's message re the above procession, the following is an account of St. Patrick's participation in this, as reported in the B.E.N. 8th June 1906. St. Patrick's This school, though numerically small, made a very pretty display. Headed by the Rector the Very Rev. Canon Burke, Mr. O GOSTLING and others, and accompanied by the Tyldesley Brass Band, the scholars were preceded by cross-bearers and acolytes. Floral emblems representing faith, hope and charity were carried by three girls in cream silk followed by the floral motto of St. Patrick, with a group of girls in cream silk carrying harps of flowers. The bodyguard of the May Queen, Miss ANNIE GAVAGAN, consisted of 24 little boys in white, and her marshal was Master JOSEPH KELLY, in cream satin. The Queen was prettily dressed in taffeta silk chiffon with train to match, and her train bearers were Misses MARGARET ALSTON, ROSIE DUFFY, and RITA GALLAGHER in cream silk and green bonnets. Her maids of honour numbered 36. The banner of St. Patrick was followed by the girls of the day school and the banner of St. Agnes was followed by Miss MARGERY SPENCER, the ex-Queen, with her train bearers and attendants in cream silk. The banner of Our Lady was followed by the Sodality of the Children of Mary, and the Boys Brigade of St. Patrick's, the Guild of St. Aloysius with banner and the banner of the Sacred Heart and that of St. Joseph, headed by the men of the parish. Tomorrow I shall follow this by an account of St. Edmund's participation. Valerie