I was shocked to read of children being stripped of their clothes if the clothes were valuable. Then thought of nowadays the same thing occurs routinely when kids wear expensive jackets and tennis shoes with designer labels. Nothing new under the sun except the style of the clothes. Joyce Stevens -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of judy olsen Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] Old Wills I think you have been seriously misinformed. Perhaps your informant was misled by the fact that many wills include clothing. This is because wearing apparel was comparatively expensive - everything was hand sewn and finer fabrics were imported and very costly. The old clothes you see in wills are items of value and could be altered to fit the next owner. Even in the 19th clothing was valuable enough to inspire the crime of child stripping in cities - a well dressed child would be dragged off the street and their clothes taken and sold. Judy On 28 Apr 2008, at 18:04, Margaret Horrocks wrote: > although I was assured at Preston, that > every one made a will, even if it was only old clothes they were > leaving. :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think you have been seriously misinformed. Perhaps your informant was misled by the fact that many wills include clothing. This is because wearing apparel was comparatively expensive - everything was hand sewn and finer fabrics were imported and very costly. The old clothes you see in wills are items of value and could be altered to fit the next owner. Even in the 19th clothing was valuable enough to inspire the crime of child stripping in cities - a well dressed child would be dragged off the street and their clothes taken and sold. Judy On 28 Apr 2008, at 18:04, Margaret Horrocks wrote: > although I was assured at Preston, that > every one made a will, even if it was only old clothes they were > leaving.

I think it is most unlikely that everyone made a Will. They certainly don't today and I would have thought numbers would have been even lower then especially for those who died in the Workhouse. Meg Galley-Taylor -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Margaret Horrocks Sent: 28 April 2008 18:04 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] Old Wills Many thanks for the replies to my question about John Ainsworth Horrocks who died 1841 and John Horrocks who died in Fishpool Workhouse, Farnworth on 4th December 1871. I have looked at Preston, and tried the other sites, do you think they did not make a will? although I was assured at Preston, that every one made a will, even if it was only old clothes they were leaving. I will just have to keep on looking and hoping one will turn up. Margaret Horrocks :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks for the replies to my question about John Ainsworth Horrocks who died 1841 and John Horrocks who died in Fishpool Workhouse, Farnworth on 4th December 1871. I have looked at Preston, and tried the other sites, do you think they did not make a will? although I was assured at Preston, that every one made a will, even if it was only old clothes they were leaving. I will just have to keep on looking and hoping one will turn up. Margaret Horrocks

Thanks to all the good folk who answered my question re: Arable, Meadow & Pasture. Best Wishes Pam Clarke

In message <[email protected]>, Pam Clarke <[email protected]> writes >Hi David, >The farm Duggans was just up the lane where I live, next to Wingates >Church. I have a note in my files about Hodson's - 1774 Property of >Starkies estate called Hodson's is at Wingates almost opposite the top >of Church Street just along Chorley Road and fronting the road for some >distance, probably as far as Church Lane. It was described in 1744 as >"messuage with closes containing 3 acres of woodlands in tenure of >Wm.Hodson demised to him for 3 lives on Jan 1 1732 at 10/- p.a. In >1774 it was the tenure of James HARTCLIFFE. So it would have been on >the opposite side of Church Lane from Duggans. > >I have not got a copy of the Tithe Map - although I am going to LRO >very soon and I believe the original map was so frail that it could not >be copied > but I have been told that there might be a way to copy it now after >some restoration work has been carried out. I will find out shortly >and let you know. Thanks Pam. That makes sense, they lived at Duggans and rented some extra land next door. James Hartcliffe could be Nicholas's father or grandfather. They were both James and spelt their surname Hartley, Hartliff or Hartcliffe. More likely grandfather as the younger one would have been only 20 then. -- David Hartley

David -You asked >> "Is it the Westhoughton tithe map you're looking at? The list of landowners and occupiers from the Tythe Awards on your excellent OPC site includes a farm called Duggans with owner Nicholas Hartley, occupant R. Hartley. The 1851 census has Nicholas Hartley (and sister) living at Duggans, the 1841 census appears to have them at the same place although it doesn't give the farm name. I.e. it looks like Nicholas was the occupant rather than, or as well as, the owner. If you've got the map to hand, could you please check. Nicholas is also shown as the occupant of a farm called Hodsons, owned by Mr Starkie, do you know where that was?" Hi David, The farm Duggans was just up the lane where I live, next to Wingates Church. I have a note in my files about Hodson's - 1774 Property of Starkies estate called Hodson's is at Wingates almost opposite the top of Church Street just along Chorley Road and fronting the road for some distance, probably as far as Church Lane. It was described in 1744 as "messuage with closes containing 3 acres of woodlands in tenure of Wm.Hodson demised to him for 3 lives on Jan 1 1732 at 10/- p.a. In 1774 it was the tenure of James HARTCLIFFE. So it would have been on the opposite side of Church Lane from Duggans. I have not got a copy of the Tithe Map - although I am going to LRO very soon and I believe the original map was so frail that it could not be copied but I have been told that there might be a way to copy it now after some restoration work has been carried out. I will find out shortly and let you know. Best Wishes Pam Clarke

Some time ago I put all the entries on that site into an Excel file (27MB) and then tried to filter out all the ones around Bolton into a smaller file (1MB). Martin Briscoe Fort William M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > David Hartley > Sent: 25 April 2008 00:13 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] Old Wills > > Most wills from southern Lancashire were proved locally > (Cheshire diocese). They are held at the Lancashire Record > Office but don't seem to show on the A2A site. There is an > online index at the Lancashire Will Search site: > > http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm > > Some wills were proved at Canterbury or York. The PCC > (Canterbury) ones are available online from the National > Archives. This site: > > https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp > > explains it all. Click on 'search' in the last paragraph of > the Introduction to search the PCC wills. >

In message <[email protected]>, David Hartley <[email protected]> writes >In message <[email protected]>, Pam Clarke ><[email protected]> writes >>Hi Folks, >> >>Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in 1850 - I need >>a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why some fields >>are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? > >Arable is land that can be ploughed and cropped. Meadow and pasture are >both grass but meadow is for mowing i.e. used to make hay PS Is it the Westhoughton tithe map you're looking at? The list of landowners and occupiers from the Tythe Awards on your excellent OPC site includes a farm called Duggans with owner Nicholas Hartley, occupant R. Hartley. The 1851 census has Nicholas Hartley (and sister) living at Duggans, the 1841 census appears to have them at the same place although it doesn't give the farm name. I.e. it looks like Nicholas was the occupant rather than, or as well as, the owner. If you've got the map to hand, could you please check. Nicholas is also shown as the occupant of a farm called Hodsons, owned by Mr Starkie, do you know where that was? Thank you David Hartley -- David Hartley

In message <[email protected]>, Margaret Horrocks <[email protected]> writes >I wondered if someone could help me, I have great difficulty in finding >anything on A2A, I think it is my age. The thing I am looking for is a >Will for a John Ainsworth Horrocks he was a farmer and died in 1843 age >79 years 1 week and 3 days (that is how it is written on the death >certificate) on the 23rd of August at Gabriels or Gaberels Farm >Horwich. Thank you, Margaret Most wills from southern Lancashire were proved locally (Cheshire diocese). They are held at the Lancashire Record Office but don't seem to show on the A2A site. There is an online index at the Lancashire Will Search site: http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm Some wills were proved at Canterbury or York. The PCC (Canterbury) ones are available online from the National Archives. This site: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp explains it all. Click on 'search' in the last paragraph of the Introduction to search the PCC wills. Unfortunately, neither of these seems to have a will for John Horrocks around 1843. (There is a John Horrocks, Gentleman of Derby, PCC 1846. Probate could be quite a while after death. Any chance your John retired to Derby?) He may not have left a will. Many farmers were tenants or, even if he owned his farm, he may have given it to his heirs before he died. Or maybe his will was proved at York. I think this was quite rare, unless he owned land north of the Ribble or in another county, but I don't really know. These wills are at the Borthwick Institue. They don't seem to have an online index. You have to pay for a search http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/bihr/PostalService/Copies.htm (or visit and do it yourself, I assume). -- David Hartley

Hi Valerie Isnt that the medieval three field system - each village having three large fields which in turn were split into strips? Here is an interesting article which questions the role of the turnip in agricultural improvement. http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/more-on-the-turnip/ Judy On 24 Apr 2008, at 21:58, Valerie lirakis wrote: > Hi Pam, > > I stand to be corrected on this, but I remember learning at school > that > farmers worked on a 3 field system, i.e. arable (land that is being > used for > food), pasture that is used for grazing, and meadow land which is left > fallow/unused for a year, in order to let it recover. The fields > would be > used in rotation. > > Valerie > > > On 24/04/2008, Pam Clarke <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Folks, >> >> Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in >> 1850 - I >> need >> a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why >> some fields >> are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? >> >> Pam Clarke in Howfen >> >> >> :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: >> >> Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. >> Other people can learn from them! >> >> :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-LAN- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Cheshire Tithe Maps are online and can be seen on their Archive website if anyone wants to look at some examples of them. http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/Default.aspx Martin Briscoe Fort William M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > David Hartley > Sent: 24 April 2008 22:30 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] TITHE MAPS > > The only tithe map I've got a copy of lumps all grassland > together; it just gives one total for "Meadow or Pasture" and > all the individual non-arable fields are labelled "pasture", > even though some would certainly have been mown regularly.

In message <[email protected]>, Pam Clarke <[email protected]> writes >Hi Folks, > >Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in 1850 - I need >a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why some fields >are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? Arable is land that can be ploughed and cropped. Meadow and pasture are both grass but meadow is for mowing i.e. used to make hay (although it would probably be grazed afterwards - the aftermath). I assume meadow land would be more valuable than pasture. Arable would usually be the most valuable, although a good water meadow would probably beat it. Arable land can of course be sown down to grass - as part of the regular rotation or because the corn price is very poor compared with meat and milk - but I would assume it would still be labelled as arable in that case. The only tithe map I've got a copy of lumps all grassland together; it just gives one total for "Meadow or Pasture" and all the individual non-arable fields are labelled "pasture", even though some would certainly have been mown regularly. -- David Hartley

A reference book of mine shows a tithe map and says it says that the "recital" gives the total acreages of arable land, pasture, meadows, woodlands and commons. Not sure if the difference is crop rotation. If you put "tithe arable meadow pasture" into GOOGLE BOOKS there are a number of 19th Century books on tithe law. http://tinyurl.com/5ypdgk I think meadow is for growing hay OED 1. a. A piece of land permanently covered with grass to be mown for use as hay; (gen.) a grassy field or other area of grassland, esp. one used for pasture. Also (regional): a tract of low well-watered ground, esp. near a river (cf. WATER-MEADOW n.). But pasture is for grazing OED 1. a. A piece of grassy land used for or suitable for the grazing of animals, esp. cattle or sheep; pastureland. Recorded earliest in ox pasture n. at OX n. Compounds 1a. Arable for growing crops OED Capable of being ploughed, fit for tillage; opposed to pasture- or wood-land. Martin Briscoe Fort William M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS

[email protected] writes: >I stand to be corrected on this, but I remember learning at school that >farmers worked on a 3 field system, i.e. arable (land that is being used >for >food), pasture that is used for grazing, and meadow land which is left >fallow/unused for a year, in order to let it recover. The fields would be >used in rotation. Not a correction, but an out of area observation. I frequently take walks in the Colne Valley (Essex) and some land close to the river seems to be permanant pasture. Other land is used arablely (sorry spelling looks awry) and continues in that state for many years. Some I have seen turned to pasture whilst (after weekkiller has been added) I've seen pasture of several years turned to arable. Probably totally irrelevent to Lancashire. However myGrandfather had, I understand, a totally livestock farm so presumably would have operated on Pasture and Meadow only. Michael

[email protected] writes: >Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in 1850 - I >need >a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why some >fields >are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? Arable - used for growing crops (able to be ploughed - OED) Pasture - for grazing animals (cattle, sheep) Meadow - Grassland which is (annually) mown for hay HTH Michael

Hi Pam, I stand to be corrected on this, but I remember learning at school that farmers worked on a 3 field system, i.e. arable (land that is being used for food), pasture that is used for grazing, and meadow land which is left fallow/unused for a year, in order to let it recover. The fields would be used in rotation. Valerie On 24/04/2008, Pam Clarke <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in 1850 - I > need > a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why some fields > are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? > > Pam Clarke in Howfen > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Folks, Feeling very humble and ignorant - looking at the Tithe map in 1850 - I need a crash course in Agriculture - please can someone explain why some fields are marked as A=Arable; M=Meadow; and P=Pasture? Pam Clarke in Howfen

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynne" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:24 PM Subject: [Fwd: A2A site] > Whoops! I think this was meant to be sent to > <[email protected]> rather than to > <[email protected]>. :-) > > Best wishes, > Lynne > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: A2A site > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:40:02 -0400 > From: pihough <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Hi Margaret, > > I too am having difficulty finding information on A2A. I remember > browsing through the site a few years ago and coming across documents on > Bastardy Laws. Under that heading was a section on court documents > where women had taken the father of their illegitimate children to court > for child support. > > Imagine my surprise when I found that two direct family members were > involved in child support cases in the past. When I recently tried to > show a cousin this site, we were unable to find this information. > > I would appreciate any help on where to find this information again as I > didn't even think to save what I had found at that time. > > Regards > > Pat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hi Martin, My Lancashire family came from Aspull, Swinton, Westhoughton, Bolton, Barton Upon Irwell, Eccles, Flixton area, and have moved amongst these places. I have no idea where the school was so I was hoping that someone from the Lancs lists might know about the school or have possibly attended. My aim also was to pass the photo on to others who might have an ancestor/relative in it so I wanted to ensure that those who are members of the lists in the general area see the post. Tamara. > Martin Briscoe <[email protected]> wrote: > > I notice that you posted the message in LANCSGEN also, do you have any > reason to believe that the school was in Bolton? > > > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > M&LFHS | Gwynedd FHS > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: 23 April 2008 01:21 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [ENG-LAN-BOLTON] moorside school photo 1937 > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > I was wondering if someone might be able to tell me a bit > > about Moorside School? > > I have a photograph of my Grandmother in 'class IV E' at > > 'Moorside' in 1937. She would have been about 12 years of > > age. They were not wearing uniforms. Would this have been > > Primary or High School does anyone know? > > If anyone has any ancestors/relatives who might be in the > > photo I would be happy to send it to you. > > If anyone has any photographs of children/classes in this > > school around this time (1937-1943?) I would really love to > > see the photographs also (to see if my Grandmother might be > > in any others). > > Thank you, > > Tamara > > > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > > Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. > Other people can learn from them! > > :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: :-+-: > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message