Thank You Thelma for my new gt gt gt grandmothers. That Elizabeth Turner kept changing her mind about her age in the censuses, she went from being 4 years younger than Henry to 2 years younger then 2 years older but when she got married in 1868 she was 3 years older than Henry. Two grandparents in one go on my tree thats never been heard of before, maybe my luck is changing. Thank you again, need to put this info in a safe place, into several safe places just to make sure. Cheers Ann Suffolk In a message dated 25/03/2005 23:46:14 GMT Standard Time, t.wig@btinternet.com writes: Hi Ann Found these in 1851 census: William Gailer head md. 45 Jour.Wheelwright b.Roydon, Essez Mary wife 44 b.Aston, Herts Wiliam son Unm 22 Jour.Wheelwright b.Hertford,Herts Matilda dau " 18 " Eliza dau " 15 " Emily dau 12 Scholar " Fanny (?) dau 10 " " Henry son 7 " " Living at Porthill, Bengeo. Assume 'Jour" to mean 'Journeyman'. Pretty sure it's Fanny - writing not very clear. Thomas Turner head md. 34 Labourer b.Sawbridgeworth Ann wife 32/33 (hard to see) " William son Unm 14 " Elizabeth dau 12 " Thomas son 10 " Anne dau 8 " John son 5 " Richard son 3 " Susannah dau 1 " Living London Road, Sawbridgeworth I looked right through Sawbridgeworth - there were other Turner families but no others headed by Tom. Thelma Visit my Website at _http://snowdropsgarden.co.uk_ (http://snowdropsgarden.co.uk/)