Hi Helen Thanks for this I did not know about it , but one of my close friends also runs one and I asked her and she had very little , so I am going to have a good look at this one Thanks again Cassy ----- Original Message ----- From: <HLThurston@aol.com> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:25 PM Subject: [HRT] re: Hertford Workhouse > Hi Cassy > > this site is very good for workhouse info. > > > _http://www.workhouses.org.uk/_ (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/) > > > Helen > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Hertfordshire FHS: > http://www.btinternet.com/~hfphs/index.htm > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 04/07/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 06/07/2005

Hello Anne As promised to compare with husbandman. [from Oxford Dictionary] Yeoman 1. A man owning and cultivating a small estate; a freeholder under the rank of gentleman; loosely, a countryman of respectable standing, a farmer. [1400 onwards]. 2. A servant or attendant in a royal or noble household, usually ranking between a Sergeant and a Groom or between a Squire and a Page. b. An attendant or assistant to an official, etc. [1400 onwards]. "Yeoman('s) service, good, efficient, or useful service." used 1802. 3. With of (or for), in official titles, as 'yeoman of the cellar,' revels, robes, wardrobe, yeoman for the household [1400 onwards]; also in burlesque titles, as yeoman of the cord, or hangman 1840. - Yeoman of the Guard, a member of the sovereign's -body-guard, instituted at the accession of Henry VII 1485. - Yeoman extraordinary (of the Guard), any of the warders of the Tower 1552. C. - In the British and U.S. Navies, an inferior officer in charge of stores, as yoman of the signals, engineer's yeoman 1889. 4. Appositive in the titles of various attendants and officials, as yeoman bedel, farrier, pricker, usher. 5. A yeoman (as in 1) serving as a (foot) soldier. Now archaic or in historical use. [1400 onwards]. - A member of the (Imperial) Yeomanry [1798]. There are quite a few meanings of these words and it apparently relates to context. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Treadwell" <treadwell@ns.sympatico.ca> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: [HRT] reposting re. TRE(A)DWELL and "husbandman" > For some reason, messages which I've sent recently don't seem to have > got through, so I'm trying again: > > (I'm sending this to the Bucks. list as well as the Oxford one, for two > reasons -- Samuel TREADWELL married and lived in Bucks., and there are > knowledgeable people on the list.) > > With the help of one of the OFHS excellent CDs, I've recently broken a > brick wall and found the birth of my ancestor Samuel TRE(A)DWELL in > Newton Purcell in 1743, with parents John and Jane. Of course, I now > want to find all I can about John and Jane; John is given as a > "husbandman". I'm familiar with "farmer" and "ag.lab." but I haven't > come across this label before and would appreciate any information about > it. > > Of course, if SKS also knows the birth and marriage of either or both of > John TREDWELL and his wife Jane (and her birth name), that would be a > bonus! I do have burial dates for both of them -- 6 weeks apart in > 1762 in Newton Purcell. > > Appreciatively, > > Anne in Canada > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >

This is from the Oxford Dictionary; Husbandman ------------------ A Middle English word. [from HUSBAND + MAN. [In early use often has two words.] meaning 'A man who tills and cultivates the soil; a farmer. ' Husbandry --------------- A Middle English word. meaning; 1a. Domestic economy 1b. Management (as of a household) -used 1658. 2. The business of a husbandman: in agriculture. farming [in Middle English] as an industrial occupation generally - used 1639. 3. Household goods: agricultural produce: land under cultivation; the body of husbandmen on the estate; used 1628 4. (Good or bad) economy; absolute economy thrift, profit. ME. examples of usage, "husbandry and manage of my house" - mercantile "The chief branch of husbandry is the rearing of sheep." - used 1806 "Spoones and stooles, and Al swich housebondrye." - in CHAUCER "Ye are gooddis husbandrye." - in Tindales Bible 1 Cor. 3.9. "Good husbandry and frugality are quite out of fashion." - used 1745 Hu.sbandly --------------- is an adverb meaning; thriftily, frugally, economically. I hope it is clear in meaning as oposed to Yeoman and labourer. I suppose it denotes some skill in farming and may include very small tenant farmers or users of commonlands ? Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Treadwell" <treadwell@ns.sympatico.ca> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: [HRT] reposting re. TRE(A)DWELL and "husbandman" > For some reason, messages which I've sent recently don't seem to have > got through, so I'm trying again: > > (I'm sending this to the Bucks. list as well as the Oxford one, for two > reasons -- Samuel TREADWELL married and lived in Bucks., and there are > knowledgeable people on the list.) > > With the help of one of the OFHS excellent CDs, I've recently broken a > brick wall and found the birth of my ancestor Samuel TRE(A)DWELL in > Newton Purcell in 1743, with parents John and Jane. Of course, I now > want to find all I can about John and Jane; John is given as a > "husbandman". I'm familiar with "farmer" and "ag.lab." but I haven't > come across this label before and would appreciate any information about > it. > > Of course, if SKS also knows the birth and marriage of either or both of > John TREDWELL and his wife Jane (and her birth name), that would be a > bonus! I do have burial dates for both of them -- 6 weeks apart in > 1762 in Newton Purcell. > > Appreciatively, > > Anne in Canada > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >

Hi friends I wonder if anyone with the 1851 census for Ware could check and see if Alfred FLACK born 1834 in Ware is still living in the town or anywhere else in Herts for that matter !!! Many thanks Yvonne Mitchell

Could be because we have just had a terrorist attack here in London! Patti ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Treadwell" <treadwell@ns.sympatico.ca> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: [HRT] reposting re. TRE(A)DWELL and "husbandman" > For some reason, messages which I've sent recently don't seem to have > got through, so I'm trying again: > > (I'm sending this to the Bucks. list as well as the Oxford one, for two > reasons -- Samuel TREADWELL married and lived in Bucks., and there are > knowledgeable people on the list.) > > With the help of one of the OFHS excellent CDs, I've recently broken a > brick wall and found the birth of my ancestor Samuel TRE(A)DWELL in > Newton Purcell in 1743, with parents John and Jane. Of course, I now > want to find all I can about John and Jane; John is given as a > "husbandman". I'm familiar with "farmer" and "ag.lab." but I haven't > come across this label before and would appreciate any information about > it. > > Of course, if SKS also knows the birth and marriage of either or both of > John TREDWELL and his wife Jane (and her birth name), that would be a > bonus! I do have burial dates for both of them -- 6 weeks apart in > 1762 in Newton Purcell. > > Appreciatively, > > Anne in Canada > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com > > >

For some reason, messages which I've sent recently don't seem to have got through, so I'm trying again: (I'm sending this to the Bucks. list as well as the Oxford one, for two reasons -- Samuel TREADWELL married and lived in Bucks., and there are knowledgeable people on the list.) With the help of one of the OFHS excellent CDs, I've recently broken a brick wall and found the birth of my ancestor Samuel TRE(A)DWELL in Newton Purcell in 1743, with parents John and Jane. Of course, I now want to find all I can about John and Jane; John is given as a "husbandman". I'm familiar with "farmer" and "ag.lab." but I haven't come across this label before and would appreciate any information about it. Of course, if SKS also knows the birth and marriage of either or both of John TREDWELL and his wife Jane (and her birth name), that would be a bonus! I do have burial dates for both of them -- 6 weeks apart in 1762 in Newton Purcell. Appreciatively, Anne in Canada

Hi Casey, I also found my George Lines in the Barnet Workhouse in 1880 where he died. George was originally from Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire, born 1799. He turned up in Ridge, Hertfordshire in 1861 - now separated from his wife Ann who was living in Surrey with her daughter and her daughters family and also her Grand daughter from another child. Living in Ridge was Georges son and very close Ridge in South Mimms was another son and also close, living in Whetstone was another son. George was also living in Ridge in 1871. Now he says he is a widow - but his wife Ann is still in Surrey, very much alive. So I also wondered; why did George finish his days in a Workhouse? To Quote from the book Historic Barnet - 5th edition, edited by W.H. Gelder. People went into the workhouse for various reasons and usually in a pitiable condition, all noted down in the appropriate column. There were the old and the ill, the lame and infirm, the deaf and the blind or weak-sighted, and those who had suffered a stroke or had cancer or were rheumaticky. There were also those of a mental condition described variously as 'weak intellect', 'weak head', imbecile's or simply 'idiot'. Deserted wives often ended up in workhouses especially if they had young children or were pregnant and couldn't support themselves. The terms 'tramp' and the term 'bastard' were in common use. People gripped by the 'drink' were also admitted. Children very young were assigned often as a labourer and sent to work (In fact it was a friend of the author Charles Dickens who visited the Barnet workhouse and was there when a child asked for more - the reaction was as shown in the Oliver Twist movie) Of course those with what was then called a mental illness often ended up in an Asylum. Then they would be called Lunatics. Occupations entered are of all kinds. Misfortune struck seemingly at random and included the following: a beadle, a pot-boy, a haymaker, a footman, a ploughman, a shoemaker, a blacksmith, a cattle-driver, a chimney-sweep , and a washerwoman. To finish this, a final quote: "We might call them the dead unlucky and the lucky dead, for life which led to the workhouse was scarcely worth living.! Hope this has been informative Gay O'Neill ----- Original Message ----- From: "cassy" <cassyfranklin@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:14 AM Subject: [HRT] Hertford workhouse > Hi All Can anyone give me any info on Hertford workhouse, please > I found my grandmother in there on the 1861 census Mary Warner , (maiden > name Fitzjohn ) Is the building still up and are they any details > on line about it Also I cant understand why she was in there ,has she had > many children Cheers > Cassy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 4/07/2005

Hi Listers I am new to this list and searching for William Hasler. He was born about 1785 in Barnet, Hertfordshire. I know nothing of his parents or if he had any siblings. He was married to Mary Griggs on 30 October 1804 in Minster, Kent. They had a family of 4 boys and 8 girls. He was a butcher. Is anyone able to access the Parish Register to find the baptism of William Hasler and identify his parents and siblings? Regards Sue Smith Australia

Thanks for that interesting insight Gay. The fear of the workhouse lingered long after their demise. I remember one of the favourite sayings of my grandmother back in the 50's was "You'll end up in the workhouse" if any of the grandchildren came home with a bad report from school. Sandra Gay O'Neill wrote: > Hi Casey, > I also found my George Lines in the Barnet Workhouse in 1880 where he > died. > George was originally from Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire, born 1799. > He turned up in Ridge, Hertfordshire in 1861 - now separated from his > wife Ann who was living in Surrey with her daughter and her daughters > family and also her Grand daughter from another child. > Living in Ridge was Georges son and very close Ridge in South Mimms > was another son and also close, living in Whetstone was another son. > George was also living in Ridge in 1871. Now he says he is a widow - > but his wife Ann is still in Surrey, very much alive. > So I also wondered; why did George finish his days in a Workhouse? > To Quote from the book Historic Barnet - 5th edition, edited by W.H. > Gelder. > People went into the workhouse for various reasons and usually in a > pitiable condition, all noted down in the appropriate column. There > were the old and the ill, the lame and infirm, the deaf and the blind > or weak-sighted, and those who had suffered a stroke or had cancer or > were rheumaticky. There were also those of a mental condition > described variously as 'weak intellect', 'weak head', imbecile's or > simply 'idiot'. Deserted wives often ended up in workhouses especially > if they had young children or were pregnant and couldn't support > themselves. > The terms 'tramp' and the term 'bastard' were in common use. People > gripped by the 'drink' were also admitted. Children very young were > assigned often as a labourer and sent to work (In fact it was a friend > of the author Charles Dickens who visited the Barnet workhouse and > was there when a child asked for more - the reaction was as shown in > the Oliver Twist movie) > Of course those with what was then called a mental illness often ended > up in an Asylum. Then they would be called Lunatics. > Occupations entered are of all kinds. Misfortune struck seemingly at > random and included the following: a beadle, a pot-boy, a haymaker, a > footman, a ploughman, a shoemaker, a blacksmith, a cattle-driver, a > chimney-sweep , and a washerwoman. > To finish this, a final quote: > "We might call them the dead unlucky and the lucky dead, for life > which led to the workhouse was scarcely worth living.! > Hope this has been informative > Gay O'Neill > ----- Original Message ----- From: "cassy" > <cassyfranklin@blueyonder.co.uk> > To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:14 AM > Subject: [HRT] Hertford workhouse > > >> Hi All Can anyone give me any info on Hertford workhouse, please >> I found my grandmother in there on the 1861 census Mary Warner , >> (maiden name Fitzjohn ) Is the building still up and are they any >> details >> on line about it Also I cant understand why she was in there ,has she >> had many children Cheers >> Cassy > > > >

Hi All: In a year and a half on this list, I have posted nineteen messages re finding Sarah J, GILES at St. Albans Herts, b. 1830. I have had far fewer replies. However, about two weeks ago a breakthrough occurred when I made contact with a direct descendant via a different list (non-Rootsweb). Today I received a scan of Sarah's marriage certificate from 1858, which by and large agreed with the transcription from the Parish Register in Portsea, Hampshire where this marriage took place. The possibly significant difference was the name of one witness - Elizabeth Giles is shown on the certificate, but the transcription, checked by a second person, said Elizabeth Luke. The marriage certificate is written in a single hand, so I can suspect it was a hand-transcribed copy of the register made soon after the event. Now by the time George GILES, the bride's father, was listed at this marriage, he was already on his second marriage. Listers from Portsmouth have helped with the 1851 census and found a George GILES age 50 with wife Maria age 35. No sign of Sarah, however. Next, I found the 1871 and 1881 entries for a George and Maria GILES in Portsea, which respectively show George as 64 and 75, and Maria as 50 and 60. These ages don't agree with 1851 though. George's birthplace is given as Newbury Berks and Reading Berks respectively, while Maria is from Portsmouth. I have found a George GILES b. 13 Feb 1807, chr. 15 Feb 1807 at Letcombe Regis, Berks parents Francis and Elizabeth. There is a marriage of George GILES and Maria JOHNSON 16 Oct 1843, St. Thomas Portsmouth, Hampshire. As Daniel JOHNSON is listed in the 1871 census, as Brother-in-law, it seems that this is the right marriage. While Daniel was chr. at St. Thomas, parents John and Mary, there is no sign of a Maria of the right age range. This all implies that George was previously married, so I searched for George GILES and Elizabeth marriages and found George GILES m. Elizabeth BLAKE at West Tytherly, Hampshire, on 15 Dec 1828. This would make Sarah likely their first child and Elizabeth (the witness) could be their second. Elizabeth BLAKE was chr. 12 Jan 1807 at West Tytherly, parents Augustine and Hannah. (Note, Sarah could have been b. 1832, so it is possible she was the second daughter.) With this scenario in mind, immediately after their marriage they must have moved to St. Albans where Sarah was born in 1830-32. Some time after that or possibly before, they had a daughter Elizabeth. Between then and 1843, Elizabeth (first wife) died. Possibly at that time, George and his daughter Sarah moved to Portsmouth, where his occupation in 1858 was "Office Clerk." In 1871 he was a Pensioner (Naval) so possibly his work was at a Navy establishment in Portsmouth. I now have a photo of William Robert Willcocks and Sarah's grave, but it reveals only her death date January 6 1907, age 75 years (which puts her birth at 1832.) This I hope has painted a background for my question. I need two things looked up, please. 1) 1841 census for St. Albans for a family comprising George GILES b. Letcombe Regis, or possibly Newbury or Reading, Berkshire age 34 (rounded to 30), Elizabeth GILES b. West Tytherly, Hampshire, also age 34(30), Sarah GILES dau. age 8-11, and Elizabeth GILES abt. 10 or less. 2) A baptism record for Sarah Jemima GILES somewhere in St. Albans in 1829 or early 1830 through 1832. Not, however, one written in invisible ink! She gave her birthplace as St. Albans in 1861, 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses, and probably on 1871 as well, but I now know that the Colchester Workhouse - where William was the Master from 1867 - census record 1871 is lost. Now, I realize the 1841 census for St. Albans is probably not indexed, but I would appreciate some information - anything anyone has - on which black hole this family disappeared into when they arrived in St. Albans! Regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville, UT USA.

Hi, please could someone tell me the address for the Bedfordshire list. Attempts to join have all been returned. Many thanks, Rita

Hi All Can anyone give me any info on Hertford workhouse, please I found my grandmother in there on the 1861 census Mary Warner , (maiden name Fitzjohn ) Is the building still up and are they any details on line about it Also I cant understand why she was in there ,has she had many children Cheers Cassy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 04/07/2005

Hello Judy Have you got approximate dates and locations et cetera - con not help without. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "hey wyre" <heywyre2002@hotmail.com> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:02 AM Subject: [HRT] GREEN, Cyril, Percival, Walter, Hilda, Jeffrey > Parents were Henry (Harry) GREEN and Lizzie (Elizabeth) nee PARADINE > > Looking for descendants of any of the above. > > Judy > BC Canada > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >

Hello June, These are a few places you can obtain Census information from; My Census www.mycensuses.com S & N Genealogy http://www.genealogysupplies.com/ Archive CD Books http://www.archivecdbooks.org/ are also providers of parish registers and other useful information. You can also subscribe to Ancestry.com http://www.ancestry.com for about L50 a year and have on line access to index and census image for most of the UK 1861-1901. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "June Parsons" <Junebug1950@cox.net> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:51 AM Subject: [HRT] Wilcox > Looking for information on Thomas Wilcox. His son Richard Wilcox born > abt. 1846 (my grandfather) is listed in 1861 census with Catherine born > 1818 bp. Alderley, Nottingham England and a younger Thomas born abt. > 1853. I would appreciate a lookup in the 1851 census for Thomas, > Catherine and Richard. Any help appreciated as I live in the United > States. > > Many Thanks, > June Parsons > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005 > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > Hertfordshire FHS: > http://www.btinternet.com/~hfphs/index.htm >

WESTON COLVILLE CAMBS. November 27 1696 COLE William of WEST WRATTING CAMBS and Ann STARLING of ASHWELL HERTS Married.

Looking for PARADINE/GREEN descendants that would have originated from Bucks in late 1800/early 1900's Please contact me direct Judy BC Canada

Hi Cassy this site is very good for workhouse info. _http://www.workhouses.org.uk/_ (http://www.workhouses.org.uk/) Helen

Hi Listers Could SKS please look up a marriage for me. Charles PATEMAN married Elizabeth GLAZEBROOK sometime around 1857/8. It could have taken place in St Andrews, Hertford, or it could have been in Stevenage. Also, I don't have either of this pair on the 1851 census. Charles was born in 1837 in Langford, Bedfordshire, and Elizabeth was born around 1835 in Stevenage. I have them both on the 1841, and onwards from 1861. Thank you so much in advance Lisa

Looking for information on Thomas Wilcox. His son Richard Wilcox born abt. 1846 (my grandfather) is listed in 1861 census with Catherine born 1818 bp. Alderley, Nottingham England and a younger Thomas born abt. 1853. I would appreciate a lookup in the 1851 census for Thomas, Catherine and Richard. Any help appreciated as I live in the United States. Many Thanks, June Parsons -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005

Parents were Henry (Harry) GREEN and Lizzie (Elizabeth) nee PARADINE Looking for descendants of any of the above. Judy BC Canada