Arthur was married to Charlotte (WARREN) who on the 1891 and 1901 census was shown as an inmate of the Hitchin Union Workhouse. they had sevearl children, some attributed to Arthur, and they also were on the census. Of Arthur however i have found no trace. On an 1877 birth cert his occupation was shown as Railway Packet Mid R Co and in 1890 a Tram Driver. I have also obtained a Great Central railway accident report, involving an Arthur at Tinsley West Junction, although I have no proof that its my Arthur. Can anyone give me some guidance on following up the railway lead. Thanks Mick

Just as a matter of interest to this group, I believe the 1851 census will be available with Ancestry.co.uk very shortly (possibly in the next couple of weeks) I had access to it if for a very short time a couple of weeks ago.. it was fantastic and then it disappeared.. oh.. now I am just hanging out for it to come back Cheers Gay -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 18/10/2005

This list is for the discussion of Genealogy and History, primarily regarding the English County of Hertfordshire. Discussion of migration patterns, immigration, heraldry, historical sketches, census data, wills, family Bibles, vital records, web sites, etc. involving this area is encouraged. 1) To POST a message to this list use the address: eng-hertfordshire-l@rootsweb.com 2) To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send a message to: ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L-request@rootsweb.com (if you are in mail mode i.e. receiving the messages individually or want them individually) or ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-D-request@rootsweb.com (if you are in digest mode i.e. receiving a digest of multiple messages or want this mode) In the BODY of the message (not the subject line) type the word subscribe or unsubscribe. DO NOT post test messages, chain letters, political announcements, current events, items for sale, personal messages, etc. For information on virus hoaxes and urban legends see http://www.cyndislist.com/internet.htm. Virus postings are not permitted. NO rude comments or flaming in the list! No discussion of flaming in the list. For definitions of flaming and related information see http://www.matisse.net/files/glossary.html#F. DO NOT impose any other rules or conditions, expressed or implied elsewhere, upon this list. Rules of other forums may not necessarily apply here. Do not try to regulate this list. If you do not like the way someone formats their queries or responses, or the content of their subject titles, take it up with me, NOT in the list. The list is for Genealogy and History. TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text of the message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary to remind other readers what the thread is about but do try to use good judgement. Quoting the previous writer's signature block or surname list is totally unnecessary. The TAGLINES at the end of each message have important tips and links. -- hugh listowner papatoetoe, new zealand http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw

1861 and 1871 census images sent off list Paula

Hi Could SKS please look up the 1871 census for me please. I am trying to trace Alice Bristow ages 5 and her father John aged 47. John would already be a widower. I have then in 1881 at Bell Bar in North Mimms with william aged 19. I can't find John on the 1861 and his wife died in 1868 any help gratefully recieved regards Su

Dear Listers, I am appealing to you for help in identifying a person. Unfortunately, I have very little to go on, only his name and where he was around December 1932 - January 1933. The man's name is Ivor W. Sachs, and around the turn of the year 1932-1933 he was a patient at Stanley Leaf's Health Sanatorium at Champneys, Tring, Herts., England. I believe he was more than twenty years old, but have no ideas whether he was British or a foreigner. I have come across Mr. Ivor W. Sachs in the correspondence of the famous anthropologist Bronislaw Malinowski, who was at Champneys at the same time as Mr. Sachs. The latter is a potentially important piece in a biographical puzzle I am working on at present. Best wishes Poul

Many thanks to Penny and Lawrence Greenall on the information they have kindly given me. Also to Gay with whom I am corresponding off list. Regards Rita Rainbird

Have sent Rita the information off list. It is the same family in both circumstances that she is looking for. Regards Gay ----- Original Message ----- From: <RitaERainbird@aol.com> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 11:40 PM Subject: [HRT] Holdsworth Family in Cheshunt, Herts > Is it possible that sks could do a lookup for me in the 1891 census for > Cheshunt. I'm looking for the HOLDSWORTH family who have a child, Walter, > aged > 3. I'm sorry this is a bit of a long shot but I cannot get to see the > census > very easily. Any help would be appreciated. > > Also, I know that the HOLDSWORTH family (maybe another branch) were > mineral > water manufacturers in Cheshunt - the 1881 census gives the address as: > Waltham Cross Shop, Cheshunt, Hertford, England. Any information on this > family > would be appreciated as well. > > Regards > Rita Rainbird > > > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text of the > message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary to remind other > readers what the thread is about but do try to use good judgement. > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.1/136 - Release Date: 15/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 16/10/2005

A further thought for you: today, Cheshunt and Waltham Cross are very much perceived as separate and distinct towns, even though one merges into the other. But this was not always so. Whilst Cheshunt has a long and detailed history as a town and parish, Waltham Cross was once little more than a very old coaching inn next to the Eleanor Cross which stood by the side road leading to the old Abbey of Waltham across some particularly gooey marshes, and after which cross this tiny outpost took its name. Waltham Cross was for a very long time effectively little more than the gateway into Cheshunt up the old Roman road from London, and was also a small corner of the parish of Cheshunt, until the coming of the railways in the 1830s led to rapid local expansion and an autonomous identity for Waltham Cross as a 'market town' in its own right (especially as part of the Lea Valley's burgeoning market gardening industry); it received its own ecclesiastical status in 1857 (or thereabouts - from memory). Perhaps its most famous resident was the 'postman' Anthony Trollope who also wrote a bit I have been told. In 1859 he moved into the very grand Waltham House with its sweeping gardens and driveways, which was demolished in 1929 to make way for a bypass, a few years after Country Life had produced a special feature on it. In his Autobiography (see below), A.T. tries to downplay its status out of modesty. It was truly one of the last of the grandest. But the status of the two towns took on a further twist, not entirely unconnected with Trollope or at least with the organisation he worked for: up until maybe the middle of the 19th century, Waltham Cross had for centuries been considered as an insignificant part of Cheshunt. But then Waltham Cross developed so rapidly and comprehensively as a commercial centre round its extremely convenient railway station (Cheshunt railway station is, after all, quite a fair way from the town's centre), and from the 1890s round its second even more convenient railway station (Theobalds Grove which actually straddles the main road), that it also became the home of the local main post office which served quite an area, including Cheshunt (it still is today, even for this resident of an entirely different county, being Essex). I can illustrate the increasingly commercial nature of 'the Cross' (as we locals call it) with one small bit of trivia; when Trollope tried to sell his town house in 1871 no-one would take it off his hands as the local area had changed its character so much; gone were the coaching days when the nobility lived in grand mansions lining the main roads out of London; now they retreated to the wilds of the country while the 'yuppies' of the period clustered in their rows of almost identical 'noble villas' around the train stations. After two years of lying empty, A.T.'s house was eventually sold at a knock-down price to William Paul, a local nurseryman and rose-grower who had recently been enjoying meteoric success both with his hybrid roses and his nurseries (in Trinity Road, Waltham Cross - behind the new parish church - Nursery Road, Loughton, and High Beech, Epping Forest, both in Essex), though his book 'The Rose' first published in 1848 brought him international acclaim; it went through 10-odd editions and the first one can fetch three or four figures today. But ever the canny Scotsman, he still enjoyed a true bargain - especially if he could house all his large family in it. Consequently, from the third quarter of the 19th century until at least WW1 or even the 1920s, local postal addresses took the form of either "Waltham Cross, Herts" or, if they were in Cheshunt, "Cheshunt, Waltham Cross, Herts" as they had to be sent to the Waltham Cross sorting office (which is almost next to the train station) before being delivered locally in Cheshunt. This official way of describing the correct location of places also made its way into the directories and censuses of the time, where you will find Cheshunt described as being part of Waltham Cross in the late 19th and early 20th century. In other words, the two places had - at least in this sense - swapped their relative standing. Today of course, both places come under the jurisdiction of a town in yet another county - Enfield, Middlesex, as all the local postcodes begin with EN. __________________________ "I will now go back to the year 1867, in which I was still living at Waltham Cross. I had some time since bought the house there which I had at first hired, and added rooms to it, and made it for our purposes very comfortable. It was, however, a rickety old place, requiring much repair, and occasionally not as weathertight as it should be. We had a domain there sufficient for the cows, and for the making of our butter and hay. For strawberries, asparagus, green peas, out-of-door peaches, for roses especially, and such everyday luxuries, no place was ever more excellent. It was only twelve miles from London, and admitted therefore of frequent intercourse with the metropolis. It was also near enough to the Roothing country for hunting purposes. No doubt the Shoreditch Station, by which it had to be reached, had its drawbacks. My average distance also to the Essex meets was twenty miles. But the place combined as much or more than I had a right to expect. It was within my own postal district, and had, upon the whole, been well chosen. "The work that I did during the twelve years that I remained there, from 1859 to 1871, was certainly very great. I feel confident that in amount no other writer contributed so much during that time to English literature. Over and above my novels, I wrote political articles, critical, social, and sporting articles, for periodicals, without number. I did the work of a surveyor of the General Post Office, and so did it as to give the authorities of the department no slightest pretext for fault-finding. I hunted always at least twice a week. I was frequent in the whist-room at the Garrick. I lived much in society in London, and was made happy by the presence of many friends at Waltham Cross. In addition to this we always spent six weeks at least out of England. Few men, I think, ever lived a fuller life. And I attribute the power of doing this altogether to the virtue of early hours. It was my practice to be at my table every morning at 5.30 A. M.; and it was also my practice to allow myself no mercy. An old groom, whose business it was to call me, and to whom I paid £5 a year extra for the duty, allowed himself no mercy. During all those years at Waltham Cross he was never once late with the coffee which it was his duty to bring me. I do not know that I ought not to feel that I owe more to him than to any one else for the success I have had. By beginning at that hour I could complete my literary work before I dressed for breakfast." - Anthony Trollope, Autobiography, Chapter XV. Regards, Lawrence Greenall. P.S. the "old groom" is identifiable in the censuses! > -----Original Message----- > From: RitaERainbird@aol.com [mailto:RitaERainbird@aol.com] > Sent: 17 October 2005 16:41 > To: ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HRT] Holdsworth Family in Cheshunt, Herts > > > Is it possible that sks could do a lookup for me in the 1891 > census for > Cheshunt. I'm looking for the HOLDSWORTH family who have a > child, Walter, aged > 3. I'm sorry this is a bit of a long shot but I cannot get > to see the census > very easily. Any help would be appreciated. > > Also, I know that the HOLDSWORTH family (maybe another > branch) were mineral > water manufacturers in Cheshunt - the 1881 census gives the > address as: > Waltham Cross Shop, Cheshunt, Hertford, England. Any > information on this family > would be appreciated as well. > > Regards > Rita Rainbird > > > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text > of the message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary > to remind other readers what the thread is about but do try > to use good judgement. > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release > Date: 16/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Ha Haa! Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/140 - Release Date: 18/10/2005

Hello Michelle, Read with interest that your George SHAMBROOK lived at 81 Hale End, Walthamstow. My gt.Grandfather Frederick SCOTT was the Railway Gate Keeper for GER and lived at the Railway Cottage, Hale End in 1901. Hale End is on the Walthamstow/Chingford border and even in 1901 was quite rural. It is right on the edge of Epping Forest. I have found the Waltham Forest website quite good and Waltham Forest Council responded very quickly to a query I made to them. If you have no luck through the list I suggest you try these. Barbara. > > From: Michelle Youd <delmitch1@yahoo.co.uk> > Date: 2005/10/17 Mon PM 06:23:05 BST > To: ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HRT] SHAMBROOK > > Hi, I am new to this list so please bear with me if I make any errors. > > John SHAMBROOK b 1774, d 1842 - when his son George was born in 1812 on the parish record he is a baliff, how would I go about finding out where he worked, and how he came to be a baliff? > > I also have his son George SHAMBROOK b 1812 Shenly Herts, working as a gardener in 1861 - 1881 census, but in 1861 Census states that George is a gentleman's gardener living at 81 Hale End Walthamstow. Could sks tell me how to find out where he worked? > > Thanks > Michelle > > > --------------------------------- > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text of the message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary to remind other readers what the thread is about but do try to use good judgement. > > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information

Hi, I am new to this list so please bear with me if I make any errors. John SHAMBROOK b 1774, d 1842 - when his son George was born in 1812 on the parish record he is a baliff, how would I go about finding out where he worked, and how he came to be a baliff? I also have his son George SHAMBROOK b 1812 Shenly Herts, working as a gardener in 1861 - 1881 census, but in 1861 Census states that George is a gentleman's gardener living at 81 Hale End Walthamstow. Could sks tell me how to find out where he worked? Thanks Michelle --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

Their mineral water bottles come up for sale on eBay very rarely; several months ago one reached a final price of several hundred pounds! For a cheaper example search for item number 6206617146. Afraid I know nothing of the family though. Lawrence Greenall, Waltham Abbey, Essex. > -----Original Message----- > From: RitaERainbird@aol.com [mailto:RitaERainbird@aol.com] > Sent: 17 October 2005 16:41 > To: ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [HRT] Holdsworth Family in Cheshunt, Herts > > > Is it possible that sks could do a lookup for me in the 1891 > census for > Cheshunt. I'm looking for the HOLDSWORTH family who have a > child, Walter, aged > 3. I'm sorry this is a bit of a long shot but I cannot get > to see the census > very easily. Any help would be appreciated. > > Also, I know that the HOLDSWORTH family (maybe another > branch) were mineral > water manufacturers in Cheshunt - the 1881 census gives the > address as: > Waltham Cross Shop, Cheshunt, Hertford, England. Any > information on this family > would be appreciated as well. > > Regards > Rita Rainbird > > > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text > of the message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary > to remind other readers what the thread is about but do try > to use good judgement. > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release > Date: 16/10/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Ha Haa! Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.2/137 - Release Date: 16/10/2005

Hi Rita, I have found the other family: Cheshunt - RG 12/1091 Folio 65 Page 5 George Holdsworth - 46 - Mineral Water Manufacturer - London, Aldgate Alice - 35 - London, Kingsland George - 23 - Assistant - Waltham Cross Fredrick - 20 - Assistant " Harriett - 18 - " Emily - 16 - " Mark - 14 - Scholar " Frank - 12 - Scholar " Walter - 2 - " Regards, Penny -----Original Message----- From: RitaERainbird@aol.com [mailto:RitaERainbird@aol.com] Sent: 17 October 2005 16:41 To: ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HRT] Holdsworth Family in Cheshunt, Herts Is it possible that sks could do a lookup for me in the 1891 census for Cheshunt. I'm looking for the HOLDSWORTH family who have a child, Walter, aged 3. I'm sorry this is a bit of a long shot but I cannot get to see the census very easily. Any help would be appreciated. Also, I know that the HOLDSWORTH family (maybe another branch) were mineral water manufacturers in Cheshunt - the 1881 census gives the address as: Waltham Cross Shop, Cheshunt, Hertford, England. Any information on this family would be appreciated as well. Regards Rita Rainbird ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== TRY to keep quoting to a minimum. "Quoting" is repeating text of the message you are replying to. Some quoting is necessary to remind other readers what the thread is about but do try to use good judgement.

Hi, is there any info on marriage of Richard Barnet- Mary Kirton about 1820- 1822 in Hertfordshire, thanks Alf Barnett

Is it possible that sks could do a lookup for me in the 1891 census for Cheshunt. I'm looking for the HOLDSWORTH family who have a child, Walter, aged 3. I'm sorry this is a bit of a long shot but I cannot get to see the census very easily. Any help would be appreciated. Also, I know that the HOLDSWORTH family (maybe another branch) were mineral water manufacturers in Cheshunt - the 1881 census gives the address as: Waltham Cross Shop, Cheshunt, Hertford, England. Any information on this family would be appreciated as well. Regards Rita Rainbird

Thanks very much, Anthony, for your outstanding help on this topic. I believe you have identified the correct family in 1851 and the reason for my brickwall - she was in Kent! I have found or been sent 1861, 1881, 1891 and 1901 census information, and in 1871 know that she and her husband were at the Colchester, Essex, Workhouse as Master and Matron, but the census record is lost. I will be in touch off list with more information. Best regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville, UT, USA.

Hi Su, Could this be them in North Mimms 1871 census: PRO Ref: RG10/1374, folio 123, page 18 Schedule 93, Welham Green Frederick POLLARD Head Mar 53 Ag Lab Herts North Mimms Elizabeth do Wife Mar 50 do Northaw George do Son 13 Ag Lab do North Mimms Charles do Son 9 Scholar do do Janet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Su Brown" <su.brown@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 4:55 PM Subject: [HRT] A big thanks and Pollards > Hi > Firstly a big thanks for all the help people have given me. I've tried to > thank every one but this is just in case i've missed some one. > I need help again. Could some one with access to the 1871 census look up > the > following for me > Frederick Pollard aged 50 > Elizabeth Pollard aged 50 wife > George aged 13 son > > There will hopefully be other children there. > They live in and around Welham Green area > regards > Su > > > > ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== > For any updates our info about the status of this list go to > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com >

I know some of them moved away from Bovingdon as I guess they went in search of work, some of them stayed and farmed and others, the women it seems, moved away with their husbands. Deb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" <michaelchaney@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [HRT] HOBBS of Bovingdon : Deb.... : : Actually I forgot to mention that one of my many cousins married one of them : (in Chesham, just over the border, in Bucks,) but I know nothing of his : ancestry. : : Mike : : : : ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== : Hertfordshire FHS: : http://www.btinternet.com/~hfphs/index.htm :

Many thanks for that web site Mike, I have had a brief look but will study it in depth. As you say Bovingdon was teeming with HOBBS and that is the trouble. Guess it will take a wee while sorting then into family groups before I can advance much further with my lot, Many thanks Deb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Chaney" <michaelchaney@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [HRT] HOBBS of Bovingdon : Deb... : : FWIW, Bovingdon was teeming with HOBBS in 1841 and 1871 (see : http://www.geocities.com/mellowsbrown/ ) : : Mike (some of whose ancestors lived there briefly) : : : : ==== ENG-HERTFORDSHIRE Mailing List ==== : This list is for the discussion of Genealogy and History, primarily regarding the English County of Hertfordshire. Discussion of migration patterns, immigration, heraldry, historical sketches, census data, wills, family Bibles, vital records, web sites, etc. involving this area is encouraged. :

Deb.... Actually I forgot to mention that one of my many cousins married one of them (in Chesham, just over the border, in Bucks,) but I know nothing of his ancestry. Mike