since posting my last email about upsetting a vicar & churchwarden, i have been contacted off list by a gentleman who has had a similar experience. he is dealing with the matter on both our behalfs, i will let you know the results. I rather not say which churches they are as i may have caught the people at a bad time, the number of churches is very small so please do not let me put you off visiting any as the vast majority of the church officials i have found to be very helpful Keith.