Robert de Torigny and the family of Gunnor, Duchess of Normandy by Todd A. Farmerie[Modified from an article which appeared in Dec 1996 on soc.genealogy.medieval] There have been many requests for information on the various Norman relationships compiled by Robert de Torigny. This is an attempt to summarize and harmonize several recent works on some of the lines: Elisabeth M C van Houts. Robert of Torigni as Genealogist. in Studies in Medieval History presented to R. Allen Brown, p.215-33. Kathleen Thompson. The Norman Aristocracy before 1066: the Example of the Montgomerys. in Historical Research 60:251-63. K S B Keats-Rohan. Aspects of Torigny's Genealogy Revisited. in Nottingham Medieval Studies 37:21-7. Robert de Torigny, writing after the Norman Conquest, recorded the genealogical traditions which tied many of the Norman nobility to the family of Gunnor, first mistress of Richard I, then Duchess of Normandy. He reported the tradition that Richard had become infatuated with the wife of one of his foresters, but being the pious wife, she substituted her sister Gunnor, much to everyone's satisfaction. He proceded to name the siblings of Gunnor, and also indicated the she had numerous nieces, who are left unnamed, but whose marriages and descendants are provided. The genealogical information contained in his account has at various times been praised and condemned, but recent opinion seems to favor the view that, while minor errors abound, the genealogies accurately represent a tradition of shared descent that may account for the rapid rise of these nobles. The parentage of Gunnor and her siblings is unknown. While some sources call her father Herfastus, this was in fact the name of her brother. She has also been claimed as daughter of the Danish royal family, but there is no evidence for this, and the context of her coming to the attention of Richard I and the family's subsequent rise to power militates against her being a royal daughter. Douglas argued (in a 1944 English Historical Review article on the family of William Fitz Osbern), based on the donations of brother Arfast to the monastery of St. Pere, that the root of the family was in the Cotetin region of Normandy, but van Houts has suggested that the Cotetin land was granted to Arfast, rather than inherited by him. Thus we are left with the more ambiguous statements of Torigny and others that she was a member of a Norman family of Danish origins. The only known brother of Gunnor was Arfast/Herfast, of whom we gain what little insight we have from a trial of heretics conducted by King Robert II of France. Arfast testified that he had pretended to join the sect, all the better to denounce them when the time arose. He later donated lands to the monastery of St. Pere, to which he retired. He had at least two sons: Osbern, who was steward to the later Dukes, and was murdered by William de Montgomery while defending the young Duke William; and Ranulf, known from charters. Osbern maried a niece of Richard I (the daughter of his half-brother) and by her was the father of the Conquest baron William Fitz Osbern. Gunnor had at least three sisters, of which the oldest appears to have been Senfria (Seinfreda), who was wife of the (unnamed) forester from the area of St. Vaast d'Equiqueville, and it was her charms which are said first to have attracted the attentions Duke Richard I. She appears to have had at least one daughter, Joscelina, wife of Hugh de Montgomery. (Torigny makes Joscelina daughter of another sister, Wevia, but a contemporary of Torigny, in demonstrating the genealogical impediment to a marriage of a bastard of Henry I to a Montgomery descendant specifically calls Joscelina's mother Senfria, and the inheritance by the Montgomerys of large holdings suggests that Joscelina was a significant coheiress to her parents, which does not match Wevia's family where the two sons would be expected to acquire most of the family land.) Hugh de Montgomery and Joscelina had a son Roger, but contrary to Torigny's statements, he was not the Conquest baron of that name, but instead his father. By a wife possibly named Emma, Roger had: Hugh; Roger (who married Mabel of Belleme and played a significant role in pre-Conquest Normandy); William (who murdered cousin Osbern); Robert, and Gilbert. Duvelina, a second sister of Gunnor, married Turulf de Pont Audemer, son of a Norman founder Torf, and uncle of the first of the Harcourts. They had at least one son, Humphrey de Vielles, who in turn was father of Roger de Beaumont, another Conquest-era baron. Wevia, the only other sister of Gunnor named by Torigny, married Osbern de Bolbec (who is otherwise unknown to history). They had at least two sons: Walter Giffard, ancestor of the English Giffard/Gifford families, and also, through a daughter, of the Clare family; and Godfrey, whose son William de Arques had two daughters and co-heiresses. Torigny indicates that Gunnor had numerous nieces, naming the descendants of several of them, but usually not naming the nieces themselves or their parents. As has already been seen with niece Joscelina, the accounts of these families are more difficult to harmonize with other available sources. One niece is said to have married Nicholas de Bracqueville, and to have had William Martel and Walter de St. Martin. As to Martel, there seems to have been a connection to Bracqueville, since Hawise, daughter of Nicholas married Hugh de Wareham, son of a Grippo. Hugh had a brother Geoffrey Martel, but beyond this no recent analysis provides any insight as to the descent of the later Martels. Walter de St. Martin is even more of a problem, since elsewhere Torigny incorrectly makes him brother of William de Warenne, but the ancestry given there is clearly false. Thus it is not clear that Torigny knew the exact connection of Walter, and there is no evidence to help clarify his true origins. A second niece is said to have married Richard, vicomte of Rouen (who was son of Tesselin). He had a son Lambert of St. Saens, whose son Helias married a bastard daughter of Robert II of Normandy. (If the connection here given is correct, then these two were within the prohibited degree, which may throw doubt on the relationship, or simply suggest that the relationship did not come to light at the time.) Based on later interactions between Montgomery and Warenne (thought to be related to this branch) it has been speculated that this niece was sister of Joscelina, which is possible but unsupported. It appears to be through this family that the relationship of two more Norman barons come into play, but not exactly as Torigny presents it. He shows yet another niece marrying Ranulph de Warenne, and by him having William de Warenne and Roger de Mortimer. This is clearly untrue, because Roger appears to have been a generation older than William. The solution appears to be that Torigny (as he had done with the Montgomerys) compressed two people, a father and son of the same name, into one individual. Ranulph de Warenne (I) appears to have married Beatrice, sister of Richard, vicomte of Rouen, and thus sister-in-law of one of Gunnor's nieces (thus it would appear that this family actually does not descend from a relative of Gunnor's, but is genealogically linked to some of her descendants) and had sons: Roger (de Mortimer) and Ranulph de Warenne (II), who in turn was father of another Ranulf (III) and of William de Warenne. Finally, Torigny states that a niece married Osmund de Centumvillis, vicomte of Vernon, and had a son Fulk de Alnou, and a daughter whose son was Baldwin de Reviers. Much debate has focussed on the attempt to identify these men, but in the latter case, clearly a connection to the Reviers/Vernon Earls of Devon is intended. The precise nature of the relationship is more difficult to pin down. It would seem that the first Earl Richard de Reviers and his brother Hugh were sons of a Baldwin, who had brothers Richard de Vernon (app. d.s.p.) and William Fitz Hugh de Vernon. (William, who was perhaps a uterine half-brother, had by wife Emma a son Hugh, often confused with the brother of Earl Richard. It is this error that has led to the statement that Emma was the relative of Gunnor, which derives from a set of relationships hypothesized in Complete Peerage (CP, under Devon) and predicated on her being mother of Hugh, brother of Earl Richard, an untrue relationship, and on Richard being nephew of William Fitz Osbern, which is discussed below.) If Baldwin, father of Earl Richard, was the same as the grandson of Osmund de Centumvillis this would complete the picture, but one more relationship invites comment. Earl Richard is said by an early source, cited by CP, to be nephew of William Fitz Osbern. If the stated connection with vicomte Osmund is correct, then Baldwin de Reviers would have been too closely related to William Fitz Osbern to have married his sister. (An alternative solution, that the wife of vicomte Osmund was sister of William Fitz Osbern, and hence grandniece of Gunnor, is chronologically impossible.) I suspect that this tradition records the memory that William Fitz Osbern was an older male relative of Richard, rather than a precise genealogical relationship. The work of Robert de Torigny thus provides a valuable source for the genealogical origins of the immediate pre-Conquest Norman aristocracy. When it has been possible to compare the information with other sources, some inconsistancies are found, but it is unclear whether these represent errors of Robert, or inaccuracies in the genealogical traditions he was recording. In most cases, an in-depth study of the available material has enabled modern historians to satisfactorilly reconstruct the descents from Gunnor's family and provide a representation of the true relationships among these early Norman families. <A HREF="mailto:taf2@po.cwru.edu">Todd A. Farmerie</A>

I am interested in the following persons: Charles Cole Ann Eason Married Aug 7, 1859 Bromyard, Hereford, Eng. I believe that they may be my 2nd Gr. Grandparents on my mother's side. If this is the right family Charles Cole may have died in India by 1861-63. Ann Eason then remarried William Ward Whittle in Worcester, Eng. Shortly after 1863 they emigrated to United States. Ann Eason father is listed as William Eason. I don't know who Charles Cole's parents are. If some kind soule would do a look up I am interested if Ann's father is listed as William. Rgds Wm. Meier

This information was taken from Notes and Queries Vol. 10 (255) Sept. 16, 1854 Page 231/232. Warren of Poynton - Waringe (Vol. x., p. 66). - The second son of Sir Edward Warren, by his third wife Susan, daughter of Sir William Booth, was named Edward.  He maried Susan, daughter of Nathan Lane of London.  Whether he was ever Dean of St. Canice does not appear, but he is the only person mentioned in the pedigree of the Warrens of Pointon who could have held such an appointment. - GRIFFEN. I.  The pedigree of this house will be found in Watson's Earls of Warren, vol. ii, pp. 74-183.; in Ormerod's Cheshire, vol. iii. pp. 340-344.; and in the Cheshire Visitations of 1580 and 1633.  A. M S. collection relative to the connextion of the Warens of Poynton, and those of Thorpe Arnold (compiled on behalf of Sir J. B. Warren) was shown to me at the Heralds' College, in or about 1839.  II.  I am not aware of the Dean of St. Canice's connection. III. The Warrens, formerly of Chidlow in Cheshire (illegitimate descendants from the sixth earl), will be found in Hist. Cheshire, vol. ii., p. 365.; Watson, vol. i. p. 215.                             ------------ May I ask, in return, information as to the question founded on the following facts?  It is clear that several families of the name Waringe descend from the Poynton Warrens, though Blakeway (Sheriffs of Shropshire, p. 131.) refers the Waringes of that county to the house of Fitz-Warin.  For instance, the Coventry Wareings are so deduced in Harl. MS. 1167.  Again, although Watson (vol. ii. p. 118.) charges Thouroton with mistake, in saying that the Thorpe-Arnold Warrens used the orthegraphy of Waringe, Watson himself is in error, as shown by the collections above mentioned, and records at the Rolls of 25, 31, 38 Eliz.  I find also, in the vicinity of the lancashire manor of Woodplumpton (which the Warrens inherited with Poynton from the Stokeports) many substantial familes bearing the name of Wareing, or Waringe, in the time of Henry VIII. and afterwards; and belive them to be, in some way or other, descendants from owners of Poynton and Woodplumpton.  But, on referring to Burke's Landed Gentry, (vol. ii. p. 1152.), I find mention of an alleged line of Lancashire Warings, of whom elsewhere I find no trace.  It is there averred, that the Warings of Waringstown are a branch of the ancient family of Waring of Lancashire, whose patriarch, Miles de Guarin, came to England with the Conqueror. A passage follows which clearly turns on some casual error; but, with respect to the above statement, I should be obliged by any elucidation, as such compatriots have hitherto escaped my researches.                                -LANCASTRIENSIS. http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ilej/image1.pl?item=

From: lpagnani@juno.com <lpagnani@juno.com> To: tree.tops@virgin.net <tree.tops@virgin.net> Cc: TREETOPS-NEWS-L@rootsweb.com <TREETOPS-NEWS-L@rootsweb.com> Date: 15 May, 2002 16:43 Subject: Re: [TREETOPS-NEWS] CEMETERIES I'm not sure if I am thinking of the same cemetery as Renee mentioned, but there is a very special cemetery in NC.  It is on the island of Ocracoke and the story behind it is wonderful.  I came upon it quite by accident while wandering around this small island.  There was a gentleman there putting flowers on the graves and he asked if I knew the story?  It seems that the islanders often were able to see and hear evidence of sea battles taking place off their shore during WWII.  After one such episode, the bodies of (I believe) four British seamen were washed up the island.  The islanders were not able to identify the men, but recognized them as British sailors by their uniforms.  The buried them together in a special plot of land.  After the war, all of the men were eventually identified, and although the British government would have borne the expense of moving the remains back to Britain, none of the surviving families wanted them disturbed.  As a special part of the July 4th celebration during the US bi-centennial year, this small plot of land was actually deeded over to the British government in a special ceremony attended by both US and British dignitaries.  The purpose of this gesture was to ensure that these brave lads would rest "at home", in English soil.  I found this so touching and still cannot recount the story without tearing up.  I have been back to visit several times and it is always a moving experience.  Linda Michigan, USA 

here is one web site about the cemetery http://www.ocracoke-nc.com/cemetery/ ===== Dan Clark County Coordinator Crisp and Dooly Counties in Georgia and Herefordshire in England http://www.rootsweb.com/~gacrisp http://www.rootsweb.com/~gadooly http://www.rootsweb.com/~enghwr __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com

Just had to share this entry with you all .... Yes ..that is how the surname was spelt . It brought a smile to my face thinking about how he would catch a mole, maybe the name of their dwelling says it all ? I'm not making it up , that's what the house was called. Census Place: Kilpeck: Dwelling :Labour In Vain. Edward LEWELLING head Mar 58 Mole Catcher Kilpeck Mary Ditto wife Mar 63 ditto My interests are in Hereford: BEVAN,GOUGH,WOODHOUSE,PERKINS,BURFORD,PRITCHARD,APPERLY,CLARKE,GIBBONS side branches: MORGAN,MORRIS,RUDGE,RUCK,DAVIES,CASTREE.Llewellyn,DOBSON. ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

Hello Listers. Back on the list again. Can you HELP.?? Searching for JOHN HORMBREY and ELIZABETH nee JONES. Married in Register Office Hereford--address as Grafton, March 1851. John age 23 and Elizabeth as 21. John the son of John Hormbrey & Elizabeth dau. of John Jones.As per marriage certificate, First 2 children born Kilpeck. John Died 1870 in Orcop. Looking for John & Elizabeth in 1851. A John Hormbrey shown in 1851 --Staunton-on-Wye--single and age 26.? The missing Lady.???? Please.? The name seems to change often. HORMBREY/HORNBREY/Hornbury/Hanbury/Embrey. All in one generation. TYIA. Fred Andrews.

Just read my own letter - Ooops!! Edward Colton and Susan Passey married 12 April 1836 - son Edward born 1840. If only my ancestors had used different names, I wouldn't be constantly confusing which Edward I am talking about! Will try to pay attention in future! Jan in Winnipeg, Canada

-----Original Message-----     > From: Renne Smith <rsmith@mnsi.net>     > To: Carol <tree.tops@virgin.net>     > Date: 14 May, 2002 00:39     > Subject: CEMETERIES     > Hello List, On the theme of cemeteries,  I was on holiday in North Carolina     > last year and I found a British cemetery, it was not the usual one I was     > told it was British Sailors that had been lost on a submarine off the coast     > of N. Carolina, Inthe second world war. I thought  the people who search     > cemeteries on their holidays would find that interesting Renee in a chilly     > Ontario Canada

Dear Keith Your e-mail has not been returned. You will always see a copy of your own mailings on the list. Regards Anne Longmate

Hello administrator, I am new to this line of communication and have just had my first EM Gollins request for the Hereford mailing list returned, the subject now prefixed by (HEF). Please advise further, Why ? Regards, Keith

Hello everyone, I am quite new at this family history and wonder if anyone can help me over this hurdle. I am searching for information on JOHN GOLLINS, Journeyman Coachbuilder, his wife was ANNE GOLLINS (LEWIS) (information from son's birth certificate) They had a son JOHN JAMES who was born in Union Street, St Peter, Hereford in June 1856 JOHN JAMES GOLLINS, Railway Clerk, was married at Wolverhampton at the age of 23, in July 1879. information from marriage certificate states father JOHN GOLLINS coach builder deceased. Further information obtained from the Hereford 1881 census ANNE GOLLINS age 62 widow kept a boarding house in St Nicholas St Hereford, also at the same address there was a son WILLIAM H GOLLINS age 22 and a married daughter AUGUSTA MARIA age 29 her husband WILLIAM H WILLITT age 28 their daughter aged 2 and a servant, BERTHA TOWNSEND. Having obtained AUGUSTA and WILLIAM WILLITT'S marriage certificate found that their marriage took place at the Parish Church of St Peter Hereford on July 4th 1878. AUGUSTA'S address at the time of the wedding was St Nicholas Sq. and her father JOHN a coach builder was a witness to the wedding along with ANN GOLLINS and a third person MARY ANN GOLLINS. JOHN GOLLINS had died between July 4th 1878 and June 2nd 1879. Hereford RO cannot locate any corresponding entry in the Death Index for Hereford or it's seven sub districts plus some. Can anyone please advise ? Thank you in anticipation Keith

Re: Little Hereford Does anyone have information - either from the Census in 1841 or 1851 or from Parish Records - to tell if the following family had any other children: Edward Colton married Susan Passey on 12 April 1869 at Little Hereford (Page 37 Parish Records) Birth Registered in Tenbury Registration District (No. 297) 11 February 1840 in Little Hereford Parish, name Edward Colton, Boy, born to Edward Colton and Susan Colton formerly Passey. Thanks Jan in Winnipeg, Canada

Hi listers , I am Researching a new Connection .I have a Lucy Hannah NICHOLAS Marr to a Albert. E. TOOZE in Birmingham 30 July 1932 at St Clements yes 1932 ,Lucy is my Fathers Sister , Her Father is a Oliver Edward Tooze .age unknown .That's all I have at this time hoping for any Connections .Regards Roy Nicholas .Bribie Island. Queensland .Australia .

If anyone has the Hereford 185/1861 census I wonder if they could look up the following for me please. I am looking for a James Davies who was married (?) to a Mary (formerly Evans). A daughter Anne was born in Titley in 1854 so the parents could be on the 1851 census. Many thanks Diane (Bath)

I found this to be very helpful. Renee Waring http://www.gendoor.com/

Hi, I have two convict ancestors, James Jauncey and John Jauncey, from Colwall or Ledbury in Herefordshire. I would like to find out more about their crimes and circumstances. In particular I need to check out the following: ** Herefordshire Quarter Sessions for 1831 for James Jauncey ** Worcester Quarter Sessions for 1832 for John Jauncey ** Also newspapers for this period--the Berrows Worcs Journal, and Hereford Times might be available and usually had news of crimes and convictions Has anyone had experience with this sort of thing? Does anyone know how I might go about checking these out from Australia? Best wishes, Rod Selden

Hello all I escaped from South Wales yesterday to beautiful Herefordshire to see if I could find any trace of my g grandfather James Powell and gg grandfather Thomas Powell in St Weonards - what a lovely place! Times must have been grim there in the 1870's for the family to move down to the pits and iron works of South Wales from the idyll surroundings of St Weonards. James birth certificate gave his birth place as "Plumb pudding" which I tried to locate. A local remembered the cottage but unfortunately the site is now a turkey farm. This is a slim chance but does anyone have a photo of this cottage? I would also be interested in any local history publications on this part of Herefordshire as it appears I will be here for some time on the trail of ancestors. Diolch yn fawr/many thanks Terry ap Hywel Caerphilly Wales http://www.terry-ap-hywel.info/family/ (now updated to include Herefordshire connections)

Hi Rod, Some links you may find useful. Perhaps writing to the Hereford Times & Berrows Journal may bring some results. http://www.thisisherefordshire.co.uk/herefordshire/hereford/info/history.html HEREFORDSHIRE FAMILY HISTORY SOCIETY http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index1.html#parish Good Luck with your research....Hazel

I promised to post details of any fix that finally sorted the complete failure of the LDS Viewer (1881 Census CD set) to run on my computer. It was sent to me by Dai Rowlands, but unfortunately having been totally worn out after the Carlisle Rock Challenge event last Friday (and also apparently having picked up a bug there that's not let me stray TOO far from the loo these last few days :) I only finally got around to applying the fix this afternoon, and it worked perfectly. Many many thanks, Dai ! And the fix was as follows:- >Put the Viewer 4.0 CD in the CD-ROM. >Double-click My Computer. >Right-click the CD-ROM drive. >Select Open. >Double-click the Windows folder. >Double-click the MDAC 2.5 SP1 folder. >Double-click the appropriate language folder (En for English). >Double-click the mdac_typ.exe file. >An installation will run and a large button will appear. Click it to start >the installation. After installation, try launching the Viewer. (Wow :)) So I now know pretty much where my Mum's Dad was born (Llantarnam, Mon) and his parents (Etchingham, Sussex for his dad, Herstmonceaux for his Mum) and they lived in Ticehurst for the first 2 kids in the family and were in Llantarnam for the next 2. And also where my dad's Mum was born (Stoke Prior, Hfds) and her parents (father - Bodenham, mother - Stoke Prior) so at last the "Gosh ... fancy that !!!" element is here at last :))) And now I know why it's so ******* frustrating not to be able to get one's hands on the 1901 Census data in a similar fashion ! Take care, everyone, and - once again - thanks, Dai! Geriatric John :) -- Website Provider and grey-bearded occasional stagehand for UK Rock Challenge, the creative-dance-drama adrenaline-packed fun-laden big- stage experience that's also the anti-substance-abuse lifestyle adopted by 15000+ 11-to-18s this year (http://www.rockchallenge.co.uk)